How do u react if someone's wants to whack u even though u nvr take his photo?

[denniskee]

in america, you have the right to use "reasonable force" to remove someone from your property.

Erm...is the question directed to me? In Sg, security can ask u to leave the mall, like the example that u stated. He too can take down ur identification details if u refused to stay till the police authorities arrived in the event that he believed that u've took pictures with malicious intentions, be it a mall, office or private home property. Of course, he can't forcefully physically retain u...but it's a grey area... can the security forcefully retain a shoplifter? What I was referring to in the previous post is trespassing... U can trespass a mall if it's closed. If u're in there when the mall is closed, I think the security guard ve a good reason to retain u with suspicion of burglary till the authorities arrive.

I believed Night86mare has highlighted the fact that people are allowed to use guns against trespassers in some countries. If u've watched enough american movies, it is a norm over there. One such place in America is Virginia. I have a friend who was lost over there and tried to ask a farmer for directions at night. At about 50m away, he clocked his shotgun (he was smoking with a shotgun in his hand and his dog by his side). Worrying that he's a redneck, he and his american friends turned back(in their car) and continued their lost journey~ His american friend(driver) told him that he could shoot them as they were in his property on the basis of trespassing (and thus why some folks over there want to ban guns)... of course, this is what that dude was saying. Whether it is true or not, u can check out with the authorities over there.

alamak, dont use other country as examples lar, we r talking about here in singapore.

yes, we r strictly talking about taking photos, transpassing. i didnt mention anything about theft or assualting someone.

 

[shiruikage]

hmm, that doesnt sound very fair !!!

yeah...i know...but dats wat he told me.

so, if u take foto in a mall (private property), and the owner don like it, would u be considered as trespassing?

 

[cabbySHE]

Pre 911, most buildings and or installation, even the Jurong Island are less sensitive to foreign visitors. Situation changes after that, till today.

Where some buildings or offices or certain road located some countries embassy, council, vips or even tycoon those area and neighbourhood wiil be under constant surveilllance.
some sensitive roads are ( as I'd known ) tanglin road, nassim road, dalvey road, napier road.

Those buildings with companies belonging to the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Korea etc. are extremely sensitive. The security guards were being instructed to be on a lookout for any suspicious person or person acting suspiciously. so are all the cctv in the FCP.

Stay out of all these area, to avoid unnecessary trouble.

As for street shooting, try to behave calmly, act confidently ( of course age/size/appearance do count ).
When and if approached, do not show fear/guilt on your face and tone of voice Speak steadily and confidently, keep a smile on your face always * Make your present there long enough to lessen that person's awareness ot suspicion. You can feel it, whenever you lift your camera, that person will spy at you using the corner of his/her eye and you should also be alert, not to aim, but pretending to shoot someother stuff.
Of course cooking up some believable story, like doing a school project, an assignment, location scouting ( as some one had already pointed out ), a news coverage, a story etc.
When I use mediacorps, most people buy my story. See what works best for you.

In worst case scenario...it would be best, if you really got a photo of that person, if not a voice recording about both parties conversation will be useful as evident, when making a police report/statement.
Any tools, weapon or material that could cause hurt would be consider as an assault. ( bare knuckle and punches or karate chop not included, unless proven that the one using is a martial art expert.)
As a recent case, a manager was sentenced to 4 weeks jail for using a piece of 20cm long aluminium sheet to slap the face of another driver for overtaking his car.

* Keeping a smile was taught to me by a Jebsen and Jason's manager, when he did a 6 month back packing trekking from Thailand via Vietnam to China. ( He has got a Thai wife and so he speak Thai fluently.)
One night,while he was walking along a track in Vietnam, 2 Vietnamese soldiers approached him and shouted words that he couldn't answer. He just show his smile and some roadmaps and his Sin passport plus some simple vietnamese words and gesture. At one time they were pointing their AK47 at his head, as he relate to me, his eye still show the fright he had experienced, though he was already in Singapore.
So his motto to me, keep your smile, to defuse any tense situation.
My advice, do not run, by running, shows that you're at fault. Just walk calmly, but keeping an alert.
If in a busy place, try to attract as many people as possible, they are your eye witnesses.

 

[cabbySHE]

yeah...i know...but dats wat he told me.

so, if u take foto in a mall (private property), and the owner don like it, would u be considered as trespassing?

Every building management, shop owners or the like, has got the right to disallow anyone to take photo at their premises or shopfront or showcase etc.

Proper permission and approval has to be obtained so to said. However, usually they would not intrude if they feels that its only candid posing etc. The discretion is in their hands. They always got the right to chase you out of their premises. So do understand your limits.

Not trespassing, but as long as you do not take anymore photos, or stop taking photos, as they are getting annoyed by your present. To continue, means you're at the losing end.

Shop owners pay rent, building management will side the shop owners, security guards are engaged by building management...so where do you stand, b'coz you're not a shoppers at that particular moment, in their eyes, you're a nuisance.

 

[Fallenphoenix]

alamak, dont use other country as examples lar, we r talking about here in singapore.

yes, we r strictly talking about taking photos, transpassing. i didnt mention anything about theft or assualting someone.

I believe the issue is about confrontations here. Be it in Sg or overseas, like Australia or UK, the confrontations are more or less the same. I believe most of the people here at one pt or another have or already have done street photography overseas during a tour/trip.

Looking like a tourist does help~

I think the chances of TS getting confronted is quite minute if he looked like a sterotype jap pg tourist at the pt of confrontation.

I was pointing out that a trespasser could be dealt with or retained by security if malicious intentions are suspected. I believe Cabbyshe ve pted out that security guards at buildings with foreign interests could use 'reasonable force' if malicious intentions are suspected.

 

[+evenstar]

yeah...i know...but dats wat he told me.

so, if u take foto in a mall (private property), and the owner don like it, would u be considered as trespassing?

as long as they don't say anything, you're alright. however, once the phrase "please leave the premises" comes out, and you choose to stay, you're trespassing.

 

[shiruikage]

as long as they don't say anything, you're alright. however, once the phrase "please leave the premises" comes out, and you choose to stay, you're trespassing.

i got two answer for that. one i could leave, as suggested, or, i could keep my camera, and go shopping...but i think this is going to inflame the guard further. oh well..best choise is to leave i guess...then come back another time another route.

 

[+evenstar]

i got two answer for that. one i could leave, as suggested, or, i could keep my camera, and go shopping...but i think this is going to inflame the guard further. oh well..best choise is to leave i guess...then come back another time another route.

nope, as long as they request that you leave, and you stay behind, even for shopping, you're still a trespasser in the eyes of the law.

 

[shiruikage]

nope, as long as they request that you leave, and you stay behind, even for shopping, you're still a trespasser in the eyes of the law.

ouch...that is gonna hirt...the feeling. noted.

 

[denniskee]

I believe the issue is about confrontations here. Be it in Sg or overseas, like Australia or UK, the confrontations are more or less the same. I believe most of the people here at one pt or another have or already have done street photography overseas during a tour/trip.

sorry, but it is very different, no body is above the law, and laws of other country doesnt applies here in singapore.

to be clear, i am talking about photography here in singapore only. maybe TS can clarify if he is asking about here in singapore or including oversea?

 

[cabbySHE]

Usually in Sin, shopping mall, commercial buildings, hotels, hospitals, especially those hi-end type, all the security guards had undergone some approved courses. Those that guard condo,warehouse and /or some factories are of a different category. They were instructed not to use force unless it is a criminal case e.g. theft, fight/brawl, arson, act of mischief, vandalism, causing disturbances to other members of public, harassment, outrage of modesty, etc.

As what I'd observed, some ( not all ) photographers are so engrossed in the pursue of the picture that they want and sometimes got carried away too far. Like standing on the refuse bin in order to get a higher angle/view. Lean precariously onto or extend the body out of a railing/escalator, especially during an ongoing event.One behaving like that is already a headache, how about with one group of, say 7 - 10 photographers invading the mall. It's definitely taboo to them.
In the eyes of the security, should any thing happened, who will be responsible ? Be in their shoes.
And with recent reported cases of pervert and or voyeur lurking around with hphone camera, can't really blame them for being sensitive, bcoz it's for the sake of the public.

With the understanding of all these issue, as a hobbyist photographer, one should not tread those grey area, and exercise some restrain/discipline.

Another area to be caution of are those renown notorious area/zone. e.g. geylang lor.4 to lor. 44 ( all the even lorong ). They are filled with pimps, gangsters, undergrd agt, bouncers, lookout, etc. your appearance there certainly is not welcomed.
It was reported that a movie production team was harassed by the thugs there during their filming session, eventually they had to approach one of their " thai-kor "(leader) to negotiate some terms in exchange for smooth filming session without disturbance.

 

[Fallenphoenix]

sorry, but it is very different, no body is above the law, and laws of other country doesnt applies here in singapore.

to be clear, i am talking about photography here in singapore only. maybe TS can clarify if he is asking about here in singapore or including oversea?

Confrontation is similar~ Law is not exactly the same and in some cases is stricter~ For example, it's illegal to take pics of children in public without permission of the parents in Australia. Nonetheless, that's ur view on this matter and no one is disregarding it. Whether 'nobody is above the law' is bona fide or not, everyone is pretty aware of it. It is a sad fact around the world.

I believe TS's thread is on 'how do u react if someone's wants to whack u even though u nvr take his photo'. We re on the internet. No specifications on country indicated. I guess it's pretty appropriate for any normal folk to interpret the issue is on confrontation and not confiding within Sg only.

 

[pinholecam]

Apologize and go for a soft resolution is always better.

Then again, based on OP experience of unreasonable ppl despite the best intentions to settle it in a civil manner. If I encounter such ppl, I will also 'Kih Hong' :angry:
:rbounce: :rbounce:
:hammer::
:vhappy:

 

[denniskee]

Confrontation is similar~ Law is not exactly the same and in some cases is stricter~ For example, it's illegal to take pics of children in public without permission of the parents in Australia. Nonetheless, that's ur view on this matter and no one is disregarding it. Whether 'nobody is above the law' is bona fide or not, everyone is pretty aware of it. It is a sad fact around the world.

I believe TS's thread is on 'how do u react if someone's wants to whack u even though u nvr take his photo'. We re on the internet. No specifications on country indicated. I guess it's pretty appropriate for any normal folk to interpret the issue is on confrontation and not confiding within Sg only.

r u sure confrontation is similar, knowing after the photog tells u about the law, and refuse to stand down, even after the photog offer to call in the police? i think u r looking our citizens as hooligans?

not sure if u have this kind of experience, but i have lots of them.

like i said, those who were rude, i just tell them there is no copy right law against shooting strangers in public or private property (as in shopping mall and the likes of it) and that they have been very rude, even ang mohs can say nothing after that and 100% of the time, they soften their stand 100%.

very recent case i had was at orchard road together with dm and perterpan1975. but quite dangerous cause was begining to loose my temper after the stranger shouted at us and demanded us to show him the shots and delete them. even asked if we are singaporean. what the heck has our citizenship do with photo taking??? anyway, i kind of shouted back stating what mr wong kan seng said about the law, he immidiately soften, and said he initially had used the word "please".

dm physically demonstrated the way he said "please" was dam rude manner, and that he has been very rude. end up we heck care him and we just walk off with him still trying to talk nicely.:bsmilie::bsmilie:

for those who approach me and asked nicely, normally i will show the shoots to them and ask for permission to use them.

for kids shoots, i always show it to them or their parents if their parent has yet to approach me.

another case was when i shot a group doing line dance, one org came to me and said i cant shoot cause there is a minister dancing in there. well, i was in bad mood that night. so shouted back who is that minister he is talking about, i want to speak to that minister personally. i wanted to clarify is what mr wong kan seng said in a national tv interview is bull ****? ended up other orgs came to me and appologise, which i refused to accept cause unless either the minister come speak to me or the 1st point of contact org appologise to me, i will not leave. no choice, they got the 1st point of contact org appologise to me.

 

[vince123123]

Sorry dude, please quote me the relevant legal authority which states that the security guard can take odwn your details? As far as I'm aware, no such legal right exists.

Erm...is the question directed to me? In Sg, security can ask u to leave the mall, like the example that u stated. He too can take down ur identification details if u refused to stay till the police authorities arrived in the event that he believed that u've took pictures with malicious intentions, be it a mall, office or private home property. .

 

[Fallenphoenix]

r u sure confrontation is similar, knowing after the photog tells u about the law, and refuse to stand down, even after the photog offer to call in the police? i think u r looking our citizens as hooligans?

not sure if u have this kind of experience, but i have lots of them.

like i said, those who were rude, i just tell them there is no copy right law against shooting strangers in public or private property (as in shopping mall and the likes of it) and that they have been very rude, even ang mohs can say nothing after that and 100% of the time, they soften their stand 100%.

very recent case i had was at orchard road together with dm and perterpan1975. but quite dangerous cause was begining to loose my temper after the stranger shouted at us and demanded us to show him the shots and delete them. even asked if we are singaporean. what the heck has our citizenship do with photo taking??? anyway, i kind of shouted back stating what mr wong kan seng said about the law, he immidiately soften, and said he initially had used the word "please".

dm physically demonstrated the way he said "please" was dam rude manner, and that he has been very rude. end up we heck care him and we just walk off with him still trying to talk nicely.:bsmilie::bsmilie:

for those who approach me and asked nicely, normally i will show the shoots to them and ask for permission to use them.

for kids shoots, i always show it to them or their parents if their parent has yet to approach me.

another case was when i shot a group doing line dance, one org came to me and said i cant shoot cause there is a minister dancing in there. well, i was in bad mood that night. so shouted back who is that minister he is talking about, i want to speak to that minister personally. i wanted to clarify is what mr wong kan seng said in a national tv interview is bull ****? ended up other orgs came to me and appologise, which i refused to accept cause unless either the minister come speak to me or the 1st point of contact org appologise to me, i will not leave. no choice, they got the 1st point of contact org appologise to me.

Chillax~ I do hope that what u're talking about. It's privacy law that is involved here which does not cover shooting in public...not copyright law. They re 2 diff issues. If I'm not wrong, some shopping malls in sg ve no camera signs. If I didn't recall wrongly, there's one such sign at lido. Once u're on a private property, ur freedom on shooting is as determined by the property owner. I do ve unpleasant encounters like this but seldom these days due to my physical appearance. Nonetheless, my shooting mood will be thoroughly disrupted when such encounters do occur and I'll end the shoot that day.
I sympathise ur encounter with the in-line dancing incident. If the dance is not on a private property or u're not approached by the bodyguards, police or any other authorities, I think u've the rights to document the event with ur camera. With the recent assault on the MP and terrorism, I'm not surprised that the authorities are getting paranoid about possible reccee or research by malicious individuals or organisation.
No pt getting so worked up over a dance shoot, right? U can spend ur time on happier stuffs....say....shooting? =D

 

[denniskee]

Chillax~ I do hope that what u're talking about. It's privacy law that is involved here which does not cover shooting in public...not copyright law.

:embrass::embrass:

i direct translate from chinese lar, ang moh should be privacy law.:bsmilie::bsmilie:

 

[Fallenphoenix]

Sorry dude, please quote me the relevant legal authority which states that the security guard can take odwn your details? As far as I'm aware, no such legal right exists.

I'll love to....but I'm tied up with my work and other interest-related work... Otherwise, I won't mind checking with the police. Let's draw a scenario.... the security guard found a person taking pictures in a commercial high-rise building and believed that he took shots for terrorism intent. The security guard wants to retain him and delete the pictures due to aforementioned intent. PG refuses and he can't retain the PG till proper authorities arrive. Isn't taking down the person's details is appropriate so that later authorities can track him? Like I say, it's case to case basis. I understand that this example is extreme but plausible. Yishun MRT incident is a good example. If u're in NS before, u probably will know some apparent buildings in sg re not innocent at all, even some shopping malls. Whether the pics and retainment is right or not, is often better to leave to the authority to decide. Besides, if u're not wrong....giving ur actual name is harmless, as long is not ur I/C. I also understand that these days with just i/c numbers u can do lots of ridiculous stuffs with it, like getting a mobile line.

 

[Fallenphoenix]

:embrass::embrass:

i direct translate from chinese lar, ang moh should be privacy law.:bsmilie::bsmilie:

just curious....what's the chinese term for it? I might need to use it in future~ =D
I'm a typical sg...not good in either languages, both chinese and english...kind of sad~ neither here or there

 

[vince123123]

Well, unless you can point me to it, I guess we'll have to consider it as "unconfirmed" information.

You can check with the police if you want, but from my previous experiences, they are really bad in law. They will tell you something is a civil case when it is a criminal case. They will tell you that it is a civil case when what they mean is that you should take up a Magistrates' Complaint. Hence I won't put too much faith in their information regarding the law.

A security guard is, until you show contrary legal authorites, in my opinion, no different from a private citizen. Sure, you can try to detain the person and ask him for his particulars. If he refuses, then you can choose to forcefully detain him if you are damn **** sure that he is a terrorist, and even subdue him if you want.

But be forewarned, that if it turns out that you are wrong or that you had no basis, then you will, be the next one in line for a host of criminal and civil complaints, such as wrongful restraint, wrongful confinement, assault, criminal intimidation etc etc. You will not be able to say "I'm a security guard, I can do these"; because there are any specific defences or immunities given to security guards that I'm aware of (again feel free to point out specific legal authority when you are not tied up with other things).

This has nothing to do with NS, and hence, I'll not be dealing with that situation.

Finally, whether you as the challengee, wish to give your name or not, is up to you. I'm merely questioning your assertion that the security guard has a right to force you to give your particulars. I'm saying that he does not.

In fact, many security guards/posts ask you to surrender your IC before you can go in - this was a point of contention in the news some years ago, when it was pointed out that they don't have any legal right to retain your IC. That said, I can say that they can put it as a condition of entry rather than a demand to surrender, but it is clear therefore that if it is not a condition of entry, they otherwise have no legal basis to demand your IC or any other partiuclars.

Finally, you can't just gloss things over by saying "case to case". Laws are laws, there's no "case to case" where different laws apply for different cases.

I'll love to....but I'm tied up with my work and other interest-related work... Otherwise, I won't mind checking with the police. Let's draw a scenario.... the security guard found a person taking pictures in a commercial high-rise building and believed that he took shots for terrorism intent. The security guard wants to retain him and delete the pictures due to aforementioned intent. PG refuses and he can't retain the PG till proper authorities arrive. Isn't taking down the person's details is appropriate so that later authorities can track him? Like I say, it's case to case basis. I understand that this example is extreme but plausible. Yishun MRT incident is a good example. If u're in NS before, u probably will know some apparent buildings in sg re not innocent at all, even some shopping malls. Whether the pics and retainment is right or not, is often better to leave to the authority to decide. Besides, if u're not wrong....giving ur actual name is harmless, as long is not ur I/C. I also understand that these days with just i/c numbers u can do lots of ridiculous stuffs with it, like getting a mobile line.