Heh Heh Canon VS Nikon (DSLRs)

[skymsh]

yuk yuk yuk! perhaps we should just put some sharks into ur swimming pool :bsmilie:

To help our friend to swim even faster? :bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie:

 

[hansia]

This is the time when we see a proliferation of different tech and standards, much like what happened to the photographic film industry, or just abt any industry.

Nikon is shying away from full size CCD, and instead launching DX lenses. Canon is moving in the opposite direction, and is "persuading" users to stick to film lenses.

To be fair, if suay suay market preference and technology converge on full size CCD big time, then DX will be a bad investment for buyers and for Nikon. Going with Canon might be a better bet then, of course at the price of heavier lenses and price tags.

Eventually, things will settle down. Hence I agree that it's best is buy something you need now, not something you need for the next 10 years. Won't know what's gonna happen to DSLR in 10 years...

Just my 2 cents worth...

 

[sebastiansong]

Answering questions with more questions. And just for those out there who might not know, I'm just playing devil's advocate again.




[1] I think you can answer the last bit yourself very easily by reading up.

[2] In theory, the 1Ds is Canon's answer to the D1x. The 1D mk II is Canon's answer to the D2h.

[3] Nikon's answer to the 1Ds is the D2x.

[4] Nikon's answer to the 1DII is probably the D3h.

[5] Canon's answer to the D2x is the 1DsII.

[6] Canon's answer to the probable D3h is the 1DIII.

[7] Repeat ad nauseum.

D70 sync 1/500 with flashes/strobes

If you are worried about the riposts to the 1Ds and the 1DmkII, then you really shouldn't be bothered with the D70's 1/500 sync, or vice versa. Namely, if you are in the market for a D70 class camera, the 1/500 would apply but the 1Ds and 1DII are irrelevant. If you are in the market for one of them, then the 1/500 on the D70 is irrelevant. Unless you consider it as the D70 having a faster flash sync than the 1DII...

ISO 100

I have a camera that goes down to ISO 6. And it kicks a** at ISO 6. Doesn't mean I flinch from using cameras that *only* go down to ISO 100. And I'd take a base ISO of 200 over a base of 100 any day of the week.

Focusing faster?

Again, depends on what class altogether. D30, D60, 300D, 10D, I'd take the equivalent Nikons any day (D100, S2, 14n). The EOS1D is faster than the D1, D1x/h, D2h. But not more accurate than any of those and in my opinion less competent overally than the D2h. Which makes raw speed a moot point. I have not used the 1DII in a work environment to say if it has improved over its predecessor.

Faster in Technlogy ? (1Ds,1DmkII)

Again it depends. This used to be easier to argue, but you are "born" in the Canon end of the cycle. If you were "born" four years ago, the reverse would have been true.

Faster in Technology ? (D1)

Then three years ago.

Faster in Technology ? (D1x/h) (Excuse me, Canon, are you *alive*? Erm, a D30, are you kidding?!?)

So it's all a matter of perspective.

The D70 kicks 300D butt. The 1DII *arguably* kicks D2h butt. I say arguably because for what both cameras are designed for, focusing is probably *the* most important factor in the equation... 8 million out of focus pixels are far less use than 4 million that are in focus. I'd take a D2h over a 1D, as I said above, I don't know how much Canon have done and how well they've done it in the 1DII to speak conclusively on this front.

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bigeyes:

 

[Brett]

Thanks guys,

will be sticking to nikon for now, heh will see how things goes waiting for the specs for the DiiTwoEx lets wait and see ~

 

[Bernard Ong]

When i first started photography, i am very keen to getting a EOS 33 as i fell in love with it the moment i held it in my hands. Got a sort of 'garang' feel when holding it, as if holding a 'Canon' - No Pun Intended.

2 weeks later when i want to buy it, the shop owner said there is no stock in Singapore. He keeps promoting the NIKON F80 to me. I held it, it feels less 'garang'. As the urge of owning a camera takes over my body and mind, i bought the NIKON F80. I fell in love with it after seeing the pictures taken with it. It is a great camera indeed !!!!

I guess both cameras are good. Its whether how 'shiok' you feel towards owning certain brands of camera.

If u feels good buying a Canon, buy a Canon. You will be happy as ever.
If u feels good buying a Nikon, buy a Nikon. You will be happy nevertheless.

 

[Jed]

but perhaps JED can eleborate on your Camera that can go down to ISO 6 (Is this DSLR ? Perhaps a Kodak SLRN ?) When you say it "Kicks @SS" In terms of what does it kick @ss ? Hows the noise etc ?

Yes the 14n/14c/SLRn. It kicks *ss because the noise control is excellent, and the sharpness is better than any other 35mm based digital SLR. But as your only camera, I really wouldn't buy a 14n/14c/SLRn.

Was qouted $7.8k from Alan for Kodaks SLRN which is a pretty fair deal considering its varied controls. (And then in an IRC chat in #Clubsnap (I am no techie) found out that SLRN is based on a F80 body which some of my friends and I are using (S2pro) found the images soft and some times the focusing not accurate)

As above, if you are planning to sell your S2 for a 14n/SLRn then I really wouldn't, if that's your only camera, unless you only do certain forms of photography. It is really not useable above ISO 500, and even then, at ISO160, the noise levels in the shadow are not really akin to the technological level other cameras are at. If however you can live with noisy shadows even at base ISO, *or* to always shoot at ISO 6 (on the 14n, I'm guessing the SLRn should be better at ISO 12 than the 14n) with constraints on shutter speed (long exposures only, which limits its application), then it is a whopping camera.

As to sharpness, my sharpest sports pictures, pixel for pixel, are taken with the 14n. No complaints. The F80 based system is not bad focusing wise. As I said in my previous post, it's better than the 10D/D30/D60/300D, although it is limited in certain areas (close focusing), otherwise it is a fairly reliable platform. If you have an S2 then you will know what to expect.

 

[Russ]

Good photos = 90% photographer 10% (max) camera.

 

[Jed]

Debatable, but certainly arguable.

 

[Amfibius]

If I am allowed to state the Maxim of Amfibius:

"In every Canon vs. Nikon thread, there will always be at least one poster who says that the photographer is more important than the camera"

Well yes that is true, but do we have to restate it so many times?

 

[zekai]

grossman paradox.... we need to repeat it. The photog is more important.

 

[Jed]

Probably, it's quantifying it at 10% (max) input for the camera that bugs me. That's a fairly confident statement to make.

 

[CaeSiuM]

If I am allowed to state the Maxim of Amfibius:

"In every Canon vs. Nikon thread, there will always be at least one poster who says that the photographer is more important than the camera"

Well yes that is true, but do we have to restate it so many times?

To generalise, it's not surprising that a lot of people preach it but they don't practise it.

 

[Brett]

Guys

Thanks for the input again, for me I know where I stand in photography, some times we do need technical details/debates. Although the photographer is more impt then camera see the below for what I mean when I get head ach deciding which brand to buy

Canon 300D Vs D70

I need D70's 1/500 sync for product shots with movement such as water splashing or a glass breaking. (I don't have hot lights thus need a sync)

I need ISO 100 + polarisers to bring down my shutter speed in an outdoor shoot where I need to get enough ambient light in + sync multiple flashes for lighting the model Nikon does't offer ISO 100.

Thus the "head ach"

Another thing

Turn on lag - if theres such a term

Nikon "boots up" fast enough for me to cover events in case I am giving my camera a break

Canon does't

then see the scenerio above

So how to decide ? What I did at this point is but a camera for each need. I have choosen the nikon system due to my familiarty with the user interface.

My point is after some time in photography you'll realise alot of photos or effects are equiptment dependent.

For now I'd say this

Model + Makeup artist + Stylist + Photog + Eqpt makes up a good synergy to produce good images/photos 90% photog 10% eqpt ? U decide.

 

[hansia]

Guys

Thanks for the input again, for me I know where I stand in photography, some times we do need technical details/debates. Although the photographer is more impt then camera see the below for what I mean when I get head ach deciding which brand to buy

Canon 300D Vs D70

I need D70's 1/500 sync for product shots with movement such as water splashing or a glass breaking. (I don't have hot lights thus need a sync)

I need ISO 100 + polarisers to bring down my shutter speed in an outdoor shoot where I need to get enough ambient light in + sync multiple flashes for lighting the model Nikon does't offer ISO 100.

Thus the "head ach"

Another thing

Turn on lag - if theres such a term

Nikon "boots up" fast enough for me to cover events in case I am giving my camera a break

Canon does't

then see the scenerio above

So how to decide ? What I did at this point is but a camera for each need. I have choosen the nikon system due to my familiarty with the user interface.

My point is after some time in photography you'll realise alot of photos or effects are equiptment dependent.

For now I'd say this

Model + Makeup artist + Stylist + Photog + Eqpt makes up a good synergy to produce good images/photos 90% photog 10% eqpt ? U decide.

Hm, why not use a ND filter on top of your polarizer for your D70? Ok, vignetting might be a problem - just leave more space for cropping loh.

Is that a good enough work-around for your purpose?

 

[Jed]

I need D70's 1/500 sync for product shots with movement such as water splashing or a glass breaking. (I don't have hot lights thus need a sync)

If you have specific questions then you should have asked them. Several things:

[1] 1/500 isn't fast enough to really freeze water splashing or glass breaking if you're shooting at any magnification of note.

[2] If you're shooting with flash, then the flash is going to provide your stopping power anyway. In a perfectly dark studio environment you can shoot with a 20s exposure with flash everything will still be frozen. That's taken to an extreme, but in a normal studio with reasonable blacklighting, you can shoot comfortably at 1/500 or 1/125 with good apertures and not experience any practical difference. The motion stopping is still provided by the duration of your flash and has nothing to do whatsoever with the duration of your shutter speed.

[3] If you did have hot lights then you wouldn't be able to generate the wattage needed to freeze the action anyway, unless you turned your room/studio into a sauna. Other forms of continuous lighting serves better for this but tends to cost a significant amount, and if you could afford those, you could afford a 1Ds/D1x as well.

I need ISO 100 + polarisers to bring down my shutter speed in an outdoor shoot where I need to get enough ambient light in + sync multiple flashes for lighting the model Nikon does't offer ISO 100.

I cannot for the life of me see the difference that 1 stop is going to make in this instance. It's a difference of 1 stop wider aperture, *or* one stop greater flash power. Or half and half. If you're shooting with just the one flash, then the D70 will sync at whatever shutter speed you choose. If you're not using one flash, then you really want a D1x or other CCD equipped camera because they too will sync with non-dedicated strobes up to about 1/2000. The D1x will also go down to EI 125. If you can afford to sync multiple flashes and have the know how to control the lighting properly, then you are clearly a very advanced photographer and we shouldn't even be having this conversation. Someone else has also proposed ND filters.

 

[loupgarou]

how about neither? considering that sigma lenses (at least the 12-24 and the 50-500 seems to be rather versatile) when you toss in that new body with the in built IS/OS (minolta)... anyway, must see pictures first...

 

[Brett]

WOW JED,

your post has been most educational for me ! all points noted but 1 point I and admittedly still kinda blur abt.

points 1,2 and 3 understood fully n clearly

I'd like to ask a few more questions, and for the benifit of other ppl who don't quite get some terms you mentioned,

Heres what I don't get

"If you're shooting with just the one flash, then the D70 will sync at whatever shutter speed you choose."

Q: U mean @ 1/10000 also can sync ? At the moment I am using a S2 and the flash icon blinks when I shoot 1/250 and above, what does that indicate it can't sync ? or not powerful enough ? Or is the above feature exclusive to D70 only ?

"If you're not using one flash, then you really want a D1x or other CCD equipped camera because they too will sync with non-dedicated strobes up to about 1/2000. The D1x will also go down to EI 125."

Q2: U mean to say D1x will sync non dedicated strobes/flashes up to 1/2000 ? What do you mean when you say CCD Equipped (pardon my ignorance on technical stuff) And what other models are "CCD Equiped" from canon/nikon (Perhaps some models with more megapixels then the D1x)

Q3: For the benefit of me n others that don't know, when you say "go down to EI 125" What is EI ?

Again Thanks for sharing I am sure it would benefit others, it definately has enlightened me a fair bit !

Regards

Brett

If you have specific questions then you should have asked them. Several things:

[1] 1/500 isn't fast enough to really freeze water splashing or glass breaking if you're shooting at any magnification of note.

[2] If you're shooting with flash, then the flash is going to provide your stopping power anyway. In a perfectly dark studio environment you can shoot with a 20s exposure with flash everything will still be frozen. That's taken to an extreme, but in a normal studio with reasonable blacklighting, you can shoot comfortably at 1/500 or 1/125 with good apertures and not experience any practical difference. The motion stopping is still provided by the duration of your flash and has nothing to do whatsoever with the duration of your shutter speed.

[3] If you did have hot lights then you wouldn't be able to generate the wattage needed to freeze the action anyway, unless you turned your room/studio into a sauna. Other forms of continuous lighting serves better for this but tends to cost a significant amount, and if you could afford those, you could afford a 1Ds/D1x as well.

I need ISO 100 + polarisers to bring down my shutter speed in an outdoor shoot where I need to get enough ambient light in + sync multiple flashes for lighting the model Nikon does't offer ISO 100.

I cannot for the life of me see the difference that 1 stop is going to make in this instance. It's a difference of 1 stop wider aperture, *or* one stop greater flash power. Or half and half. If you're shooting with just the one flash, then the D70 will sync at whatever shutter speed you choose. If you're not using one flash, then you really want a D1x or other CCD equipped camera because they too will sync with non-dedicated strobes up to about 1/2000. The D1x will also go down to EI 125. If you can afford to sync multiple flashes and have the know how to control the lighting properly, then you are clearly a very advanced photographer and we shouldn't even be having this conversation. Someone else has also proposed ND filters.

 

[Jed]

Q: U mean @ 1/10000 also can sync ? At the moment I am using a S2 and the flash icon blinks when I shoot 1/250 and above, what does that indicate it can't sync ? or not powerful enough ? Or is the above feature exclusive to D70 only?

Well I'm not sure if the D70 can hit 1/10000 to begin with, or if it tops out at 1/8000. But if it can, then yes the D70 should be able to sync with the single dedicated flash unit. Basically to understand the problem with flash (and why you need to get it to "sync" in the first place), you need to understand how shutters work. Generally speaking most modern cameras have two shutter "blades/curtains" (that's a loose definition but it gives you a good idea). To achieve the exposure, the first blade moves out of the way, and the exposure is made, and the second blade moves back to cover the film/sensor.

At speeds above the camera's flash sync speed (1/250 in the case of the S2), the reason the camera cannot sync the flash is because the shutter blades are constantly in motion. At slower speeds, the situation above happens (first blade open, exposure, second blade close). However at high shutter speeds, what actually happens is that the first blade opens, part exposure takes place, and the 2nd blade actually starts moving and trails the 1st blade before the 1st blade fully moves out of the way of the film/sensor. This is hard to explain in words, but the effect is that you have a slit of light and your image is actually exposed by a ray of horizontal light, rather than all at once.

This means that, if your flash fired during such a situation, only a narrow horizontal band of your film/CCD would be exposed to the flash, meaning you would result in uneven exposure and underexposure in the other parts of the image.

1/250 is about the fastest current technology (and this goes back a good 20 years) can manage to get the 1st blade clear before the 2nd blade starts it's movement.

The reason why cameras like the D70 can sync at 1/500 is because CCD chips can be electronically controlled in terms of duration, which means that from speeds from 1/250 to 1/500 of a second, the shutter still opens for 1/250, but the CCD electronically activates for only 1/500, thus resulting in a 1/500 exposure. As a result, the flash can still illuminate the whole image area at once. This means that certain cameras with a CCD inbuilt can be synced even at shutter speeds as high as about 1/2000, although this is not officially supported in camera manufacturers' literature.

The alternative to this springs back to the days of film, where to get over this limitation, instead of one burst of flash, the flash unit could be designed to fire a lengthy burst of light over a longer period rather than a single high powered flash. By doing so, it allowed the flash to illuminate the entire film area while the "slit" (horizontal strip) moved to expose the entire film area. The problem with this method if that you lose power effectively (because the flash has to divide its capability over a lengthy sustained burst rather than one short one), and it is very difficult to meter the flash burst off the film plane, which is what most modern TTL systems do when metering TTL flash. Canon got around this problem first (although Minolta fans might contradict me, I'm not altogether familiar with their system).

Nikon has finally in the last few months, in the shape of the new D2h and D70 cameras, allowed TTL shooting. And the reduced power output is not as much of a handicap as you might first imagine, because instead of shooting at f16 @ 1/500, you can now shoot at f5.6 @ 1/4000 for instance, DOF differences permitting. It gives you *much* more flexibility in general than just one stop extra ISO... you have about 4 stops more shutter speed to play with.

Q2: U mean to say D1x will sync non dedicated strobes/flashes up to 1/2000 ? What do you mean when you say CCD Equipped (pardon my ignorance on technical stuff) And what other models are "CCD Equiped" from canon/nikon (Perhaps some models with more megapixels then the D1x)

See above, I've explained why. It will only do so with non-dedicated strobes because with dedicated units Nikon prevents syncing at above the 1/500 shutter speed.

Digital cameras come equipped with two major forms of image sensors, CCDs (charge-coupled devices) and CMOSs (complementary metal-oxide-silicon) chips. If you want to know more about the pros and cons of either, then you'd best do a search on the web because the topic is major. For the purposes of this discussion anyway, CCDs allow the electronic "shutter" I've described above, but CMOS sensors need to be controlled by a manual shutter.

Nikon CCD cameras are the D70, D100, D1, D1x, D1h. The D2h uses a Nikon manufactured LBCAST sensor which is an offshoot of CMOS technology. I cannot verify the Fujis offhand but I believe they are CCD. Kodak's current offerings use CMOS.

Canon CCD cameras are the 1D, and I *believe* the 1Ds. Not sure about the D30; the D60 and 10D and 1D mk II use CMOS technology.

Of that lot, the Kodaks (CMOS), the 1Ds (I think CCD), and the 1DII (CMOS) have higher resolution than the D1x, which has enough resolution for the vast majority of purposes.

Q3: For the benefit of me n others that don't know, when you say "go down to EI 125" What is EI ?

EI refers to "exposure index", which is basically the film speed setting that you use given the way you shoot and process. A film (or even a sensor) has a film speed that's dependent on how you expose, and how you process. That means that you can have a film with a base ISO of 100, but you can expose it with an EI of 200 and then push process it through extending development time and/or increasing development temperature.

In digital terms, many people will underexpose a camera by 0.3 to hold in the highlights in a scene, in which case, although the "film" speed is rated nominally at, say ISO 100, it was exposed at an EI of 125.

 

[quekky]

why would someone need to set 1/2000 or faster with flash?

it's not as if u're shooting outdoors in bright sunlight and using flash at the same time

 

[Jed]

You've answered your own question.