Health Promotion Board Digital Competition 2005
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LittleWolf said:
I beg to differ. HPB is a stat. board, what ever they do, at least in my opinion, should be in line with what the gov wants to do. They are after all part of the same gov. We can't have a suitation where one gov dept. wants to promote one thing and another dept do something which goes against it. Does that not give the impression that the diff. stat. boards are sabotageing each other? One stat. board wants to promote the arts, gov. have dept protecting copyrights ie: music copyrights, movie copyrights, etc. but another stat. board runs a photo competation with T&C which, while protecting their own interest, are stacked against the photographer.
Anyway, if you read the earlier postings, you may see that there are people/org working with HPB who knows about issues like these, they claim to have advised HPB of the issues ( I take this to mean that they also see a problem with it, if not why do they need to bring it up in the first place? ) and when HPB chooses to still go ahead with the org set of T&C, these same people/org still support, help, and lend their name to the competation.
We're not asking for much, just for people and org which are suppose to repersents photographers and who claim they are promoting photography, to stand firm on their grounds and make a stand for what they belive in.
To get a fair idea of what this whole thread is about, I guess one would need to read this thread from the start. See what are the questions asked, the replies given, and the opinion expressed by other CSers, than draw your own conclusion. If at the end of it all, one still finds that there is nothing wrong, than I'll wish them good luck with the competation.
V
vince123123
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The age old adage of big fish eat small fish comes promptly to mind.
yqt said:
That's connecting a really long string of dots. As a lay person, I fail to see how the HPB drafting a set of rules for a clearly low-budget photo competition is somehow contradictory to the government's aim of promoting arts and culture. The problem is that you are viewing this thru a professional photographer's eyes and are bristling at the T&C's whilst the HPB's focus is getting the message out at the lowest cost. As both a tax-payer, who's yearly 'contribution' funds the HPB's mission, and an amateur photog, who cares not a hoot about 'copyright' for my totally amateur photography, I find absolutely nothing wrong with the HPB's approach......nil, nada, zilch.
As to the role of the PSS, a least they tried to stay involved, they could easily have pulled out altogether and totally lose all influence on how HPB approaches this in future. It is a difficult situation for them and whatever choice they make, they may hurt/offend themselves, the industry, amateur photogs, the HPB, growth of photography in general. I say cut them some slack. They are but a victim of the changing trends in photography. More and more, corporations will turn to the next available Joe with the DSLR and 2 lenses willing to do a budget job. Why would the HPB be any different? The PSS could have chosen to bail out altogether from this, how would that have helped anybody?
As has been repeated here ad-nauseum, if anybody here does not like the terms, don't take part!
dkw said:
As mentioned, the contradiction comes when the gov. states openly that it wants to protect copyrights and promote the arts ( photography is an art form ) and another stat. board runs a photo contest with T&Cs which, well for the want of a better word, explotie the copyrights of the photographer. The same gov that wants to promote and protact have another dept exploting these rights.
Yes, I'm a professional photographer, maybe that's why I see the impliation more so than others and these impliations applys to one and all, not just the pro shooters. It can happen to anyone and I'm stating these as facts that affect the public.
If this is only from a pro shooter's view, than why is there a need for PSS to mention "We have talked to HPB about this copyright issue", "PSS has told HPB that the rules are open to public critique". Well it does seems that PSS do have some issue with the T&Cs as well.
dkw said:
PSS could have pull out but it choose to stay. Did it manage to influence HPB? Bear in mind that PSS have work with HPB before and how have things progress?
Yes, either choice they make someone's going to feel hurt. But we're talking about PSS here. What is suppose to be the role of PSS? Is it health promotion or photography promotion? By putting their logo on HPB's promo. they endose the competation. A competation where the T&Cs, till this day, PSS have not said out right is fair but on the other hand, they have bought up their concern about the T&Cs to the attention of HPB.
How have PSS, by supporting this competation help photography as a whole, if PSS have pulled out, the contest will still go on but they would have make a very strong point and it may force HPB to relook at their T&Cs again.
By PSS staying, the amateur shooter, thinking that PSS have endose the T&Cs so it should be OK, have agreeded to, Under Entry requiment:
3
vi) Model release must be sign and obtained: try doing that in public
4. If you win something copyrights to HPB is on a exclusive and perpetual basis without any futher payment
5. All other submition that do not win a prize, copyrights to HPB, though non-exclusive is still on a perpetual basis and again, without futher payment
7. If HPB gets sued for using your images, YOU HAVE TO PAY ALL lawyer's fee, demand, cost of the suit and damage.
You tell me, how have PSS help any photographer or photography by endoseing this competation?
Some of us are of the opinion that PSS should have stood on it's ground and make a stand.
But sad to say, it did not.
Don't get me wrong, I think PSS have done a great job with the "Life Is Great" photo competation, just that in this instance, PSS is a let down.
BTW, your comment about connecting a really long string of dots? Well, don't we only get to see the whole picture better when all the dots are joined by lines?
Cheers.
V
vince123123
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Welcome to CS and your first post here. 
MadCat said:
V
vince123123
Guest
End of the day, I'm still wondering why people are speaking against those who try to explain the situation more clearly to the rest.
Don't you know that creating awareness is very important? A simple "dont like the terms don't join" mentality doesn't solve the problem and will only leave it to fester, as it will one day lead to these terms being "standard". See how the T&Cs in banks or insurance are stacked against the customer - the question is - how did it get to become standard practice? Its because the consumers still take part/sign up despite the stacked odds and slowly but surely, this leads to the T&Cs becoming standard, when in the first place, they are unconsionable.
Besides, I think his summary in this post sums up quite nicely the T&Cs
As for PSS, they could be caught between a rock and a hard place. Between deciding if they want to have their logo appearing in a major competition and the rights of photographers in Singapore whom they are supposedly the leading body for, they have apparently elected to go the commercial route instead of the consumer route.
Don't you know that creating awareness is very important? A simple "dont like the terms don't join" mentality doesn't solve the problem and will only leave it to fester, as it will one day lead to these terms being "standard". See how the T&Cs in banks or insurance are stacked against the customer - the question is - how did it get to become standard practice? Its because the consumers still take part/sign up despite the stacked odds and slowly but surely, this leads to the T&Cs becoming standard, when in the first place, they are unconsionable.
Besides, I think his summary in this post sums up quite nicely the T&Cs
As for PSS, they could be caught between a rock and a hard place. Between deciding if they want to have their logo appearing in a major competition and the rights of photographers in Singapore whom they are supposedly the leading body for, they have apparently elected to go the commercial route instead of the consumer route.
yqt said:
yqt said:
I think a large part depends on what you think the role of the PSS should be. What you are describing looks more like a professional photographer's guild. Is the PSS really playing that role? I doubt it. Does the PSS even represent 1% of all "photogs" in Singapore? If they don't have that mandate, then how does their presence or absence from endorsing any competition even influence the participation of the vast majority of photogs. Take my own amateur attempts. I had not even noticed that PSS had endorsed the "life is great" competition or the HPB one. I had entered one but not the other, totally influenced only by the prizes available. I suspect a large number of photogs would be in exactly the same boat. i.e. the involvement of PSS was irrelevant.
The problem about connecting long strings of dots is that one person can draw and elephant and someone else can draw a giraffe from the same dots. My point is this, where you stand on this issue is largely dependent on what your starting point is. As a pro photog, you may feel quite rightly peeved, as a taxpayer and consumer for HPB services, cheaper is better as far as I'm concerned. To each his own, I understand but cannot sympathise with your frustration.
Cheers
My personal take. If big players in the photography-related industry itself (like Canon, Epson and even Nikon - the competition featured in their "Focus" magazine) have rules that "compromise the rights" of the photographers, other non-photography related organisations are probably just emulating the rules of these "big brothers" in the photography industry. I mean, some of us here even have conflicting reactions to different competitions with similar rules! If even photographers and "big brother" photography-related organisations are confused, I'm not surprised that other non-photography orgs, be it HPB, AVA, or other pte companies are following the wrong examples. :dunno: Great Eastern is more of an exception, as most of the threads of protest on various competitions recently have shown.
dkw said:
Well, to each their own. As ind. we have to agreed to disagreed and I respect your opinion. It gives me an insight at a diff. prosepctive.
But in the case of PSS it is diff.
Perhaps you are not aware, but PSS is THE premier photo club in SG. It's name alone is Photographic Society of Singapore. A name where even photography clubs out side of Singapore know of. A photography society which, though it pains me to say this, in my opinion, is on par or even higher in standing than the PPAS ( Professional Photographer's Association of Singapore ).
I do not decide what the role of PSS is suppose to be but as the premier club in Singapore there are expectations. In the words of a member of PSS, it's role is the promotation of photography in Singapore and in the present context, copyrights is consider part of morden photography. And as mention before, if PSS do not find anything wrong than why did it bring up the T&Cs to the attention of HPB? If it is not it's role why bring it up? Did it not bring it up in the hope that there will be changes for the better of the photographer? And after bringing it up and there is no changes, it chooses to lend it's name to it. This gives the impression that the T&Cs are in order.
In your own words, you were " totally influenced only by the prizes available " and not the involvement of PSS. Does that also mean you did not read clearly the T&Cs? I hope you did, but I'm sure many did not fully understand the T&Cs. If you were to be aware of the pitfalls, would you not try to create awareness and warn others about it? Well, I can't just sit around and do nothing. At the risk of being called an idiot to fight with the big boys, branded as someone who's biased against PSS, amounst others, I think I have to speak out.
Your point about the dots, agreed, it depands on where your starting point is. For me, my starting point is from the POV of a photographer. Just a photographer, nothing more nothing less. At the end of the day, at least there is a picture which emerge from it, a picture which after a round of healthy debate, is of concern to us.
Cheers
I just want say to something here..
First and foremost, I think many photographers raise their negative opinions regarding this T & C issues has definitely help in raising awareness among everyone whether pros or amaturers.
I dun see anything wrong in that at all and to keep quiet about it as in "Dun agree, dun join lor", does not help in raising this awareness at all and I believe many hobbist or amaturers has no idea of this copyright issue at all and were only eager in winning something or hoping that their work will be appreciated. Sadly, I believe appreciation of their work is only second priority to them.
Of course there are exception, respectable photography competition such as Nikon international photography compeitition is one of them ( correct me if I am wrong, as of last year, they state they dun own any copyrights of any submission including even the winning entries and will only has usage for it in promoting the compeition..blah blah blah) This kinda of compeition truly respect photography as a profession.
I believe most professional would understand the exploitation of some organiser in using "competitions" for their own gain rather than promoting photography and I am sure experienced photographers will not join such competition.
And well that left some hobbist or amatures photographers, some, unfortunately who dun even read or understand T&C.
Of course at the end of the day, the choice is yours, but at least you know what are the implication behind their T & C. Its up to the individuals, whether one value their work of art. The intention behind such organiser is very clear, to use and own as much photographs as possible without paying a high price for their commercial purpose. And if they have quality photographs (pro standard) among some of you talented photographers, they will be more than happy. Win-win situation, I think 80% they win, maybe 20% you win. Who you want to be? the Organiser or the photographers?
So....have a nice day...
I writing this as a personal opinion and just hate to see photographers being expolited, forgive me or correct me if there is any wrong information.
As for PSS, no comments, but after this incident, you should know whether they are creditable or not. Its pretty clear.
First and foremost, I think many photographers raise their negative opinions regarding this T & C issues has definitely help in raising awareness among everyone whether pros or amaturers.
I dun see anything wrong in that at all and to keep quiet about it as in "Dun agree, dun join lor", does not help in raising this awareness at all and I believe many hobbist or amaturers has no idea of this copyright issue at all and were only eager in winning something or hoping that their work will be appreciated. Sadly, I believe appreciation of their work is only second priority to them.
Of course there are exception, respectable photography competition such as Nikon international photography compeitition is one of them ( correct me if I am wrong, as of last year, they state they dun own any copyrights of any submission including even the winning entries and will only has usage for it in promoting the compeition..blah blah blah) This kinda of compeition truly respect photography as a profession.
I believe most professional would understand the exploitation of some organiser in using "competitions" for their own gain rather than promoting photography and I am sure experienced photographers will not join such competition.
And well that left some hobbist or amatures photographers, some, unfortunately who dun even read or understand T&C.
Of course at the end of the day, the choice is yours, but at least you know what are the implication behind their T & C. Its up to the individuals, whether one value their work of art. The intention behind such organiser is very clear, to use and own as much photographs as possible without paying a high price for their commercial purpose. And if they have quality photographs (pro standard) among some of you talented photographers, they will be more than happy. Win-win situation, I think 80% they win, maybe 20% you win. Who you want to be? the Organiser or the photographers?
So....have a nice day...
I writing this as a personal opinion and just hate to see photographers being expolited, forgive me or correct me if there is any wrong information.
As for PSS, no comments, but after this incident, you should know whether they are creditable or not. Its pretty clear.
LittleWolf
New Member
yqt said:
The government says a lot of things, and to quote a politician from my home country: "why should I care about the nonsense I said yesterday". I'm pretty sure MITA/MICA/whatever the acronym de jour is wouldn't be happy either if some other agency/stat board encroached on "their" territory.
I would think the HPB would just like to get some people thinking about health issues, using the competition as a bait. And they probably don't want to hire someone to keep track of all the legal issues in eternity, so they cover their rear ends with terms and conditions that ensure they don't have to care about the competition anymore once it's over.
As far as culture/arts are concerned, the significance of this competition is probably about the same as a karaoke competition at your local supermarket: it draws in customers, and makes the winners feel good. And in this sense, the HPB competition is a win-win situation. Don't have any illusions: the vast majority of this PR campaign's target group will be thrilled by the prospect of their 5 minutes of fame and couldn't care less about the fine print.
As far as the PSS is concerned, I think expectations that they should represent or act in the interest of Singapore photographers in general are unrealistic. Clubs/societies may start out with philanthropic ideals, but usually they soon only care about/represent their members (are you one? if not, you don't have a right to complain) or, some time later, the club/society becomes its own purpose and maybe a career vehicle for officers who can bolster up their CV or add letters after their name (like F.L.A.N. = four letters after name). This trend has greatly accelerated in recent years, when global communications (e.g. internet) transcended geographical constraints and eliminated some major purposes of clubs/societies in the first place.
I'm not accusing the PSS of any of the above, but I've seen enough clubs and "national associations" (particularly funny if there are several competing ones, all claiming to represent the same people) to see a general pattern. (I suspect this decay process begins as soon as a formerly informal club is incorporated.) Being somehow associated with an official body like a stat board helps to increase the reputation of a club, so it's a no-brainer to seize this opportunity. (Why else are "guests of honour" invited to all kinds of occasions, even if they're completely clueless about the specific topic?)
Advancement in culture or the arts usually doesn't happen at competitions. New ideas/concepts are not digestible enough to woo judges until they have long become mainstream. If you're really interested in arts/culture, work on your photos and discuss with friends instead of worrying about competitions and royalties or "intellectual property" (oops, the buzzword is out).
It's always interesting and good to try to see the other side's opinion. Postings by vince123123, dkw, zookeeper, delong72, LittleWolf, have given me the chance to hear views from others. Thanks guys/gals.
LittleWolf:
I have to agreed with you on most of your posting. I do hope the politician from your home country is not from SG. I would hate to have someone like that running my home.
Sad to say, most org, gov or private wants to have the most returns with min. cost. And yes, they all want to cover their behind with an armour plate and at all cost reguardless of who is disadvantaged along the way.
As a concern ind. ( some have accused me of other names here ), it is this group of ind who do not understand the T&Cs that we hope to imform. If we con't to fight a good fight, T&Cs like these may, hopefully, one day be less "standard" in competation here. Far fatch? Yes. But we have to try.
Unrealistid as it may seem, there are expectation of a club like PSS. I agreed that PSS is a member's club. Being the perimer club with the highest public profile amounst photo clubs here, it would be unrealistic for PSS to say they are just a private club and nothing else, not when their logo have appeared on many major national photo competition, workshop and seminar.
Isn't it true that, " In your own home you can do as you like, so long as your household is happy with it, and it is kept within those 4 walls. But when you step out of your house, there are expectation of how you should behave in the eyes of the public." These expectation is know as public expectations and moral obligations.
As far as the "general patten" of how some assoc. are heading, I hope that is not the case with PSS. And for it to be a career veh for interested members of a club? Well, if I'm HPS, I may get someone from PSS to do my commerical shoots for me. After all they have supported me during my photo competitions and I can press them on price as well. And more importantlly, we already know each other and have a working relationship. That is, if I'm HPB. This is call networking. I network and I'm sure many others as well.
Advancement in copyrights, culture or the arts usually doesn't happen at competitions but we should all do whatever we can, wherever or whenever we are able to. Well, at least that is my opinion.
Cheers
LittleWolf:
I have to agreed with you on most of your posting. I do hope the politician from your home country is not from SG. I would hate to have someone like that running my home.
Sad to say, most org, gov or private wants to have the most returns with min. cost. And yes, they all want to cover their behind with an armour plate and at all cost reguardless of who is disadvantaged along the way.
As a concern ind. ( some have accused me of other names here ), it is this group of ind who do not understand the T&Cs that we hope to imform. If we con't to fight a good fight, T&Cs like these may, hopefully, one day be less "standard" in competation here. Far fatch? Yes. But we have to try.
Unrealistid as it may seem, there are expectation of a club like PSS. I agreed that PSS is a member's club. Being the perimer club with the highest public profile amounst photo clubs here, it would be unrealistic for PSS to say they are just a private club and nothing else, not when their logo have appeared on many major national photo competition, workshop and seminar.
Isn't it true that, " In your own home you can do as you like, so long as your household is happy with it, and it is kept within those 4 walls. But when you step out of your house, there are expectation of how you should behave in the eyes of the public." These expectation is know as public expectations and moral obligations.
As far as the "general patten" of how some assoc. are heading, I hope that is not the case with PSS. And for it to be a career veh for interested members of a club? Well, if I'm HPS, I may get someone from PSS to do my commerical shoots for me. After all they have supported me during my photo competitions and I can press them on price as well. And more importantlly, we already know each other and have a working relationship. That is, if I'm HPB. This is call networking. I network and I'm sure many others as well.
Advancement in copyrights, culture or the arts usually doesn't happen at competitions but we should all do whatever we can, wherever or whenever we are able to. Well, at least that is my opinion.
Cheers
To yqt,
Respect your stand regarding this issue and for sticking to your words. :thumbsup:
However, as a side note, take a look at another recent thread in CS on the topic of competition. You would notice that some of the people who has stood up and voice out against HPB's unfair T&Cs and did not take part has NOT done the same for another competition with unfair T&Cs. Seems to me that to these people, prizes & who is the organizer of the competition plays an important part in how they view the importance of their rights. How to convince organizers to change to a fairer system of T&Cs when the same people who complains about them vocally don't follow up with the correct actions?
In such a case, even if PSS were to pull out of every competition with unfair T&Cs, it won't have any effect coz photographers would still take part and organizers wun see a need to change the T&Cs at all. Quite a sad irony.
Respect your stand regarding this issue and for sticking to your words. :thumbsup:
However, as a side note, take a look at another recent thread in CS on the topic of competition. You would notice that some of the people who has stood up and voice out against HPB's unfair T&Cs and did not take part has NOT done the same for another competition with unfair T&Cs. Seems to me that to these people, prizes & who is the organizer of the competition plays an important part in how they view the importance of their rights. How to convince organizers to change to a fairer system of T&Cs when the same people who complains about them vocally don't follow up with the correct actions?
In such a case, even if PSS were to pull out of every competition with unfair T&Cs, it won't have any effect coz photographers would still take part and organizers wun see a need to change the T&Cs at all. Quite a sad irony.
I presume you're referring to Canon Photo Marathon? Haha... just wait and see lah. Don't be too fast to judge.MadCat said:To yqt,
Respect your stand regarding this issue and for sticking to your words. :thumbsup:
However, as a side note, take a look at another recent thread in CS on the topic of competition. You would notice that some of the people who has stood up and voice out against HPB's unfair T&Cs and did not take part has NOT done the same for another competition with unfair T&Cs. Seems to me that to these people, prizes & who is the organizer of the competition plays an important part in how they view the importance of their rights. How to convince organizers to change to a fairer system of T&Cs when the same people who complains about them vocally don't follow up with the correct actions?
In such a case, even if PSS were to pull out of every competition with unfair T&Cs, it won't have any effect coz photographers would still take part and organizers wun see a need to change the T&Cs at all. Quite a sad irony.
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