Has ClubSNAP become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

[Prismatic]

Come on guys, it's really a simple problem.
A amatuer shoots for free, and if his/her shots dun come out good, the client obvious wun hire him/her again. So how to ensure you get the job the next time before some other less-skilled amateur comes along? It's the responsibility of the photographer to do his/her own marketing and advertising of course. We are the guys in the business, not our clients, so the point is to make them understand what value your more expensive services provide. How do you expect your client to know that $100 an hour is the right price to pay? You have to show them what you are providing extra for that $100 an hour price.

 

[Pro Image]

Aiyo go sleep and get over it. It comes to a point where this topic is getting rather boring................ :what:

So how about thinking some new topic? I am telling you all. There is really no point to argue now. TME you are right with your views. Ok? Happy? JED although I fully support you but let's call it truce.

JED sometimes it's better to leave it alone (I think you know what i mean)...............let it be. Both of us know what's like to be a full time photographer. Let it be.......:gbounce:

Forum is a good form of mental stimulation but I have this feeling it comes to a point where everybody is getting confuse with all this discussion which some of us just dun get it anymore. :sweat:

Luckly on the net only. What happened you all meet face to face? I think this will happen!:flame:

Life is really too short. Go out and do some serious shooting man!!! :vhappy:

Staring at computer monitors will be hazardous to your health. :kok:

Everyone have a fair share of the pie.

Seriously speaking, this topic is so hot that I feel my room is on fire.... :devil: :flame:

 

[Pro Image]

He forum starter, Mr Sze Kiat. Hope you are getting all this important notes down............ :bigeyes:

 

[SniperD]

Aiyo go sleep and get over it. It comes to a point where this topic is getting rather boring................ :what:

So how about thinking some new topic? I am telling you all. There is really no point to argue now. TME you are right with your views. Ok? Happy? JED although I fully support you but let's call it truce.

JED sometimes it's better to leave it alone (I think you know what i mean)...............let it be. Both of us know what's like to be a full time photographer. Let it be.......:gbounce:

Forum is a good form of mental stimulation but I have this feeling it comes to a point where everybody is getting confuse with all this discussion which some of us just dun get it anymore. :sweat:

Luckly on the net only. What happened you all meet face to face? I think this will happen!:flame:

Life is really too short. Go out and do some serious shooting man!!! :vhappy:

Staring at computer monitors will be hazardous to your health. :kok:

Everyone have a fair share of the pie.

Seriously speaking, this topic is so hot that I feel my room is on fire.... :devil: :flame:

:bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie: :thumbsup:

 

[Pro Image]

:bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie: :thumbsup:

Wah buring midnight oil? Still not asleep? I just finish my product shoot in my studio. So thought everyone has stop.......... I am tired.........goodnight guys :love1: ..........happy posting.............. :sweatsm:

 

[SniperD]

Wah buring midnight oil? Still not asleep? I just finish my product shoot in my studio. So thought everyone has stop.......... I am tired.........goodnight guys :love1: ..........happy posting.............. :sweatsm:

heh heh... yupz.. finishin the last of layout to a newsletter due in Jan'04. I'm nocturnal.. hahah...

cheerz dude!

Nites nites...* I'm going to be insomiatic soon

 

[Jed]

No no no! Go go go! Still have to beat the U/W photography thread!

 

[SniperD]

hahahah..... dun worry.. today's a new day with many more comments.. sure to beat the U/W thread.. kekeke

:bsmilie:

 

[Ian]

No no no! Go go go! Still have to beat the U/W photography thread!

:devil: That's easy mate .. <snip> one airline gone and it's straight down to Davie Jones locker for them ....:devil:

The Ang Moh from Hell

 

[Winston]

hahahah..... dun worry.. today's a new day with many more comments.. sure to beat the U/W thread.. kekeke

:bsmilie:

Ran out of bullets.....
Everyone else, fire away!

Still as informative as ever.....
(Ian's post is very informative and detailed, listing the various "hidden" costs of a professional, that the customer will probably not see or understand) :thumbsup:

 

[Jed]

Okay, so as to keep this on topic, instead of 1000 banal posts, what does everyone think the role of CS is in this situation? As in, asking Szekiat's original question again

 

[snappist]

hmmm..... interesting..

 

[Winston]

Okay, so as to keep this on topic, instead of 1000 banal posts, what does everyone think the role of CS is in this situation? As in, asking Szekiat's original question again

Hmm...Clubsnap's role?
It's a forum right? so it's role is primarily for discussion?

However since it is a online meeting place of photographers and casual snappers alike, it is also a good place to seek help for photographic needs, whether it's answering a newbie's query like me, or seeking photographers to help in this event and that.

Such posts are unavoidable such that even Hardwarezone.com forum, has a "Employment Office" sub-forum solely for this purpose, to allow others to seek assignments. Kind of like a bulletin board to stick your resume (E.g. Will work for food... :bsmilie: ) and have customers contact you.

Not that I am suggesting Clubsnap have such a sub-forum too, Just that it's unavoidable IMHO, unless there is a full-time moderater doing thread scanning in all forums and deleting such posts, minutes after they are posted.

 

[VincentLin]

Hmm...Clubsnap's role?
It's a forum right? so it's role is primarily for discussion?

However since it is a online meeting place of photographers and casual snappers alike, it is also a good place to seek help for photographic needs, whether it's answering a newbie's query like me, or seeking photographers to help in this event and that.

Such posts are unavoidable such that even Hardwarezone.com forum, has a "Employment Office" sub-forum solely for this purpose, to allow others to seek assignments. Kind of like a bulletin board to stick your resume (E.g. Will work for food... :bsmilie: ) and have customers contact you.

Not that I am suggesting Clubsnap have such a sub-forum too, Just that it's unavoidable IMHO, unless there is a full-time moderater doing thread scanning in all forums and deleting such posts, minutes after they are posted.

I think that is a nice idea.

I have my concerns though. Prospective customers might not be aware of ClubSnap, those who might know of ClubSnap would be few and far between - thus the prospective market would be small for so many players here in ClubSnap.

My view is that serious photographers ought to market their services. Wedding photography is marketed through a few ways - print advertisements, display advertisements and word of mouth (i even saw a photographer who left a stack of his namecards and a portfolio at a florist).

My personal market is really bad to me. It's real tiny, but it's lurcarative. I don't get any credits and I don't get to keep my pictures. It's fine with me because my clients can afford to pay me and my on-the-spot education of what they are doing. Lately, I'm turning to digital to meet clients' expectation. Easier for me too, I hate having to give them slides. Money is good here, I guess I'm the only photographer who have been doing it for years and know how to operate their expensive machinery and equipment.

Hahah, most of the camera equipment they buy and loan to me. A perfect deal. I just have a simple camera for my own hobby. They lend me all their high-end stuff. :heart:

My clients send me overseas with paid insurance too. It's fun. I get to learn a lot of things related to their industry too. That jungle bit I was talking about? That's what I do - very seldom (but always anticipating an assignment like that).

How do I market myself? My clients do the marketing for me. :sweat:

Just my two cents. And don't ask me who I work for.

 

[sehsuan]

a swatch tells time, a patek phillipe tells time too....... you get the drift

but rueyloon, they're both swiss!

but sometimes, i volunteer free - for my school, for example. sheer fact is that for the prize giving ceremony held just last week, having a digital body allowed me to at least have a better sporting chance to capture the moment compared to the father who was resorting to using a handphone camera...

frankly, with schoolteachers knowing the general tightening financial situation in schools - no extraneous spending - it's us photonuts who potentially can help out.

medical, law etc, there's a distinct line between "pass" or "fail" - medical may mean live or die, law may also mean win or lose - but photography - there are no such clear yardsticks to indicate where the hirer (?) and photographer are, you know... i mean, if i were to be tendering a contract to some photographers, but i "pian-pian" like to like more of the style of the lower asking price photographer compared to the "old bird"... what to do right? photography is an art, and VERY subjective to the eye. the saying, beauty lies in the eye of the beholder, isn't that very true?

as for the mention about equipment - it is a gracious thing that manufacturers have worked to get high end stuff and bring them back to the consumers. my dad said that, when he bought my first 486 for 4K back in 1992, after new sets went down to like 2.9K in 1994 (?) - we pay early, but the experience you gain early is worth the extra money, because there's nothing more valueable than knowledge. isn't it the same with pro photogs? i doubt that computing will see free volunteers spoiling the market though :bsmilie:

 

[chaotic]

I think it's good that clubsnap is an avenue for people looking for photographers to post a wanted ad. At the same time, photographers looking for jobs can see the requests. So clubsnap is actually doing the match-making, thus it's actually useful economically. No structural unemployment.

 

[GitS]

i think this thread has meandered all over the place from the original post and one reason it became so was that TME disparaged an entire profession.

apart from its artistic content, photography in the professional sense is also very much a business where market clearing conditions apply. if there are some corporates willing to skimp and save and hire a few newbies for next to nothing, so be it. Other assignments may require a more extensive equipment list, a more sophisticated lighting set up etc where the newbies would simply would not be able to cope. it all has to do with how much value added that the photographer can provide in terms of creative content and how much input the client requires.

the issue of creative content is a subjective one but ultimately it also boils down to market demand and supply conditions. the creative demands in shooting for a local department store newspaper spread will be different from lets say an assignment for Tiffany's, Vogue etc. There is a price for eveything.

on the point of newbies charging at next to nothing prices, i believe this will remain a small part of the industry. in any case, if more and more newbies shoot for love and fresh air and their output is respectable and indistinguishable from the pros, then the professionals naturally will have to fall back on their experience and creativity and move up the food chain to more sophisticated assignments. like everywhere else, this business is always evolving. But what is probably happening is that a lot of amateurs are killing themselves because they want to get the exposure. Fine and good but the danger here is that a lot of these guys are genuinely amateurs and if things go wrong with a paying client, it only perpetuates the perception of photographers as merely camera operators. trust me, i have been treated no better than the delivery driver or the security guard often enough...not that photography should be an elitist profession..

i have no issue with guys doing it for love of photography, i.e. shooting your friend's wedding. i have shot at weddings where the equipment used by friends and relatives made me look like a newbie but we all know its not the equipment that makes a great photograph is it?

lastly, TME, if you have have not worn the boots of the wedding photographers who charge "exorbitant" prices, please do not disparage an entire profession with your sweeping statements. if the entire industry decides tomorrow that a studio/outdoor shoot will start from $15,000 and up and actual day packages will start from $7,500 and up, the industry will die a quick and painful death. Market clearing conditions also apply to this segment of the industry and some may decide that a $600 package will suffice while others may want something that they perceive is a little more special. If there are photographers out there able to fulifil this requirement for something a little more special, don't begrudge them their livelihood or from a more abstract perspective, their ability to bring to the masses, the ephemeral beauty of light, shadow, and the decisive moment.

 

[sehsuan]

That's life in the business.

As for misconceptions, I heard not-so-long-ago a young wannabe shooter comment that he wants to be a wedding photog in Singapore. Reason being he wants the money ("...so-and-so charges $x,000 for a day's job..."). This is an old refrain. The poor kid had neither the knowledge nor the composition, IMO to make it. Spent 1 day out shooting (apprenticeship) and he quit! He could not take the hectic pace and the pressure.

Sigh, that's misconceptions for you.

you know Azure, you reminded me of my principal who advised us staff, those who will grow the most are those with the "helipcopter" view of things.

agree totally man...

a good example: S.H.E was in town recently and an event company needs photographers. As I was in Taiwan at that time, my friend called me up to ask if I'm interested coz it's the next day after I return back to Singapore. But lo and behold! When I arrived back, my friend called me to say that the event company has hired 2 "cheaper" photographers...... and when I took a look at their shots... I sighed....

because they didn't do your fave girl group justice SniperD?

surprisingly, i dont remember seeing any publicity machine at T2 when i saw them coming in. i wasn't waiting for the group to come in - i on the other side of T2 waiting for a friend to come in...

As to everyone else, keep going, let's overtake that U/W photography thread from a month ago. Kekeke.

don't you dare to overtake my u/w thread, Jed. you have been warned.

 

[MaGixShOe]

It is true that I do not understand fully the complexities of a pro's life but surely, even with all the work done, would not charging $100 or more an hour be considered excessive? Frankly, there are many people who work longer hours who do not even earn $100 an hour... these include white collar workers...

In any case, I think my statement above refers mainly to wedding shoots and so there is a need to separate the corporate shoots from the wedding shoots.

For corporate shoots, I can well understand the need to charge high prices for the companies require top notch work. So you do need to do a lot of work. We will leave this aside.

For wedding shoots, really I wonder if there is a real need to treat it like a corporate shoot (in terms of equipment, number of repeat shots just in case, etc). I have seen the final result of a pro shoot with hundreds of exposures wasted in the name of getting "that" shot.... necessary or waste? Would the couple have noticed that "that" shot isn't really that good? I mean the couple ended up with about a thousand wedding shots for that one day wedding(including repeats, etc)... actually they were pretty horrified at the excess.... I can understand photojournalists, corporate even photographers having to go to that extent but weddings??

In any case, can the couple really can distinguish between the product (not studio work, mind you) from a pro shooting and a decent amateur and between developing the shots at a pro lab (either yourself or lab) and a decent commercial lab. Cos seriously I can't quite (at least the difference is minimal to me) and unless u have really fancy shots, I also dun see the need for pro labs... perhaps my standards are not high enough... but then again, I believe that I represent a large section of people who feel the same way and hence feel that photographers charge exorbitantly.

And frankly, (again in my own understanding), u buy the equipment that you need, and surely there is no need to upgrade everytime something new (and/or better) emerges if what you have already helps u achieve what you want anyway? Isn't the constant upgrade and hence the need to defray the cost of upgrading unncessary?

At any rate, the perception persists (where wedding shoots are concerned) that pro photographers are overpaid since there is often no break down of the costs of the materials involved nor the time required to process the film/digital shots, maintenance of equipment. I think with a proper break down of the costs versus the amount charged, one can see more easily if such high fees are called for. I for one would like really to see an example.

I'm not sure if I sound reasonable but this is my current perception. I would seriously like to hear a detailed account from a pro or serious freelancer. It would be most appreciated in terms of widening my view of the world of professional photography.

if u cant see the difference between a photo taken by a Pro and a newbie then maybe

1. the "Pro" isnt Pro enough to make u see the diff.

2. you cant tell the difference between a winning shot and a snap shot, in that case u are right in getting newbies to cover the event for free.

 

[vince123123]

Without prejudice or bias to either camp in this enticing discussion and only making reference to the following quote for easy reference., I just have one query to make. It seems that a common thread is that newbies/amateurs are being stamped on because if they screw up, the client cannot take it and think the whole profession is bad.

However, if the client knows he is getting a "Free" photographer, wouldn't his expectations be lower? Just like one wont expect a umbrella from a $2 shop to last as compared to one from a proper shop costing over $10, i think most clients wont sweept he whole profession because of a screwup by a newbie. Those clients who have seen other professionals works will know what professionals are able to achieve and will take the newbie's works in stride (his own fault for cutting costs lah!). this who have never seen other profesional's work before and can't see a difference and think every photographer is like the screwed up newbie probably will never have enuff budget to hire the professional anyway

I dont think there is a danger either way if the newbie is doing free shots and producing lousy quality. Perhaps the only danger starts when the newbies/amateurs actualyl starts to produce prints of a quality respectable enough to rival the professionals, but yet continues to undercut the market with low or free prices (whatever reason may motivate him). Professionals woudl therefore have cause for worry in this event.

Fine and good but the danger here is that a lot of these guys are genuinely amateurs and if things go wrong with a paying client, it only perpetuates the perception of photographers as merely camera operators. trust me, i have been treated no better than the delivery driver or the security guard often enough...not that photography should be an elitist profession..