Four Third System "common home" stinks

[OlyFlyer]

I am the grateful receipient of that helpful reply and I think this serves as an excellent example of getting more help from a bigger pool. Much like how the concept of Four Thirds is to allow "interaction" between lenses and cameras from different makers, I think we can benefit from having Oly, Pana, Leica and Sigma Four Thirds users in one common room.

Yes I agree to a degree, but (sorry to say) couldn't you have read the manual to get the answer? I am not very positive to questions that are easily found in manuals. Some people are just too lazy (I do not say you are) and post basic questions. That is abuse of helpful people who do their homework and learn their cameras. I have no idea how well your camera's manual is written, you are of course welcome to ask questions, but your question was actually not 4/3 related, meaning that even Canon and Nikon owners could probably have answered the same way. So I do not regard your question as 4/3 family interaction.

I am sorry if your fellow Panasonic family members are not willing to help, just want to get help from others. In that case my point is even more valid, this is not a "Common Home" and they have nothing to do here. Oly people are almost always very loyal without being "brand blind" and are devoted to photography. Almost every one of us are very helpful and never say "Goto H***, you have yourself to blame if you buy this and that crap".

 

[vernonleow]

Yes I agree to a degree, but (sorry to say) couldn't you have read the manual to get the answer? I am not very positive to questions that are easily found in manuals. Some people are just too lazy (I do not say you are) and post basic questions. That is abuse of helpful people who do their homework and learn their cameras. I have no idea how well your camera's manual is written, you are of course welcome to ask questions, but your question was actually not 4/3 related, meaning that even Canon and Nikon owners could probably have answered the same way. So I do not regard your question as 4/3 family interaction.

I am sorry if your fellow Panasonic family members are not willing to help, just want to get help from others. In that case my point is even more valid, this is not a "Common Home" and they have nothing to do here. Oly people are almost always very loyal without being "brand blind" and are devoted to photography. Almost every one of us are very helpful and never say "Goto H***, you have yourself to blame if you buy this and that crap".

Actually, I really could not find it in the manual. Neither could I find it on the Panasonic website, nor Google, nor the Leica manual (which was where I realized the Digilux menu was different to the L-1) or any of the forums. As a matter of fact, Canon works differently.

I don't think none of the Panasonic users didn't want to help. There are very few L-1 users at this point and one of them, Tomcat, wasn't too sure because he had loaned his cam to friend. Mike made a very good assumption and was first to respond and he proved right.

I am not loyal to any brand (or barnd blind as you call it) but am more concerned about IQ and features. I was a Pentax user for a long 18 years (MG, Z-1, Optio S, Optio S5, *ist D), I also used OLY (E-20 with every accessory, 4040, 8080 with underwater housing), Leica Digilux 4.3 (made by Fuji but cost cheaper than the similar Fuji model!), Pana LC-1, FX-01, L-1 and Canon 1D mkll. In almost all circumstances, I was an early adopter. When I got my Pentax Z-1, the dealership changed hands and the product manager called me often for help on the camera and we are still good friends now.

My point is all camera brands have good products but the competition is always keen. Those of you who have used Pentax know that they have some very good lenses just like Oly. Unfortunately they don't make the best DSLRs. That I believe is what Canon does so I made a painful switch. But not all L lenses are great compared to some of the Nikon, Zeiss and Leica lenses. Even Pentax has some superior stuff. Today we have the luxury of interchanging lenses using lens adapters although it is still quite limited.

Four Thirds allows us to properly do that. Things are looking encouraging now that more brands have come aboard. But chances of survival will depend on the users like you and me so the more we help each other the more likely manufacturers will come up with better products to compete and we the users will benefit from that.

ClubSNAP is after all, a community of photographers and if we don't help each other why bother logging in?

 

[OlyFlyer]

vernonleow, sorry if the manual so so bad, I understand your problem, not easy to be one of the first and I am happy for you that Mike could help you. We are here to help, what I mainly protest against is the anonimizing and hiding of Olympus dSLRs.

 

[vernonleow]

vernonleow, sorry if the manual so so bad, I understand your problem, not easy to be one of the first and I am happy for you that Mike could help you. We are here to help, what I mainly protest against is the anonimizing and hiding of Olympus dSLRs.

No worries!

I can't understand though, why you are upset. I was a little surprised to find this new 4/3 section but it is a good thing. Not as if they removed Oly and there certainly didn't make it hidden or harder to access. It's still there for non 4/3 stuff just like Panasonic. Don't you think having a 4/3 section makes good sense? It embraces what 4/3 is about. Interaction between different brands. Much like how the 4/3 manufacturers collaborate, us users here communicate on a common system.

 

[drakon09]

The Four-Thirds System is the brainchild of Olympus and in time the Olympus name would be synonymous to Four-Thirds.

As easy as it is to make it proprietory, Oly chose to make it an open standard. If Oly is mature enough not to resort to brand-snobbery, neither should we.

So here we are now, a forum open to all Four-Thirds users, be it Panny, Leica or Oly.

This is a forum, not an advertisement; if Oly DSLR users by now do not know what is Four-Thirds, then 1: they do not care less what cam they use (much less the brand) or 2: they buy the cam first, THEN find out what it can do.

To me, it's like trying to tell people that there is no such thing as a crop factor on a Four-Thirds system. :bsmilie:

 

[OlyFlyer]

No worries!

I can't understand though, why you are upset. I was a little surprised to find this new 4/3 section but it is a good thing. Not as if they removed Oly and there certainly didn't make it hidden or harder to access. It's still there for non 4/3 stuff just like Panasonic. Don't you think having a 4/3 section makes good sense? It embraces what 4/3 is about. Interaction between different brands. Much like how the 4/3 manufacturers collaborate, us users here communicate on a common system.

Yes, it makes sense, but not this way. It should clearly say something like "Common home for Olympus, Panasonic, Leica dSLR and other 4/3 cameras and lenses". And it should be over Olympus which should say someting like "For all non-dSLR camera users". That way it would be clear.

The term FourThird was unknown to me until I ordered my Olympus E-500. I did not bother to find out what it was about and actually even today, I do not find it important. Fact is, I believe the 4:3 proportion factor on the sensors will soon die and will be replaced by 16:9, since less and less TVs and computer screens are made 4:3. Printing in 4:3 is no longer possible (at least here in Sweden), which forces me to pay extra for unused area every time I order prints unless I will let the lab crop my images (over my dead body). And when the 4:3 sensors are no longer made I think Oly (and other 4/3) has reached their life limit. The width of the sensor can not be extended much more without changing the whole concept, lens mounth, size and all. That would be the end of 4/3 systems. In fact, after the Photokina disappointment in September, I think Oly has problems and even if they manage to present a new pro body, I think that will be the last one. But that is OT.

 

[drakon09]

The term FourThird was unknown to me until I ordered my Olympus E-500. I did not bother to find out what it was about and actually even today, I do not find it important. Fact is, I believe the 4:3 proportion factor on the sensors will soon die and will be replaced by 16:9, since less and less TVs and computer screens are made 4:3.

Can you image what a portrait would look like in 16:9 proportions? Large-sized 16:9 monitors are useful for watching widescreen DVDs; the extra space on the sides makes it useful to place all the toolbars while doing post processing.

As for printing, A-standard sizes are starting to overtake 35mm R-sizes in popularity.

This is just a ratio count for comparison:

35mm 3:2 format : 1.5
A-standard format : 1.41
4:3 format: 1.33
16:9 format: 1.78

And surely the end results of great photos would be large poster-sized printouts adorning the walls of your home, no?

 

[OlyFlyer]

The Four-Thirds System is the brainchild of Olympus and in time the Olympus name would be synonymous to Four-Thirds.

As easy as it is to make it proprietory, Oly chose to make it an open standard. If Oly is mature enough not to resort to brand-snobbery, neither should we.

That is not true, Oly still uses the name Olympus and as long as it is going to sell dSLR cameras it will continue to do so. It is not snobbery, it is called business. I believe Olympus does not have any control over the quality other manufacturers can produce and will continue to use Olympus as brand and quality stamp and FourThirds as a standard stamp. Just like when I buy a PC, I do not buy just a PC (open standard), I usually buy HP or Dell because these are the brands I trust. Call it snobbery if you like, I call it educated buyer with experience.

This is a forum, not an advertisement; if Oly DSLR users by now do not know what is Four-Thirds, then 1: they do not care less what cam they use (much less the brand) or 2: they buy the cam first, THEN find out what it can do.

This forum is definitely a market place and advertisement. I do not pay a penny to be here. Do you? Most of the members do not, but I believe this site is financed by adverts and contributions from manufacturers. I do believe all Oly dSLR users know what FourThirds stands for. I also think that that group will be smaller and smaller if those who do not have Oly dSLRs are not informed. And that information is well hidden if brands are not mentioned. There is not even any indication that it is about dSLR. Just that it is a "Common Home...". Also, the structure makes it only natural to post Oly questions under Olympus. So, at least some clarifications are absolutely needed.

To me, it's like trying to tell people that there is no such thing as a crop factor on a Four-Thirds system. :bsmilie:

I don't get this one.:dunno:

 

[OlyFlyer]

Can you image what a portrait would look like in 16:9 proportions? Large-sized 16:9 monitors are useful for watching widescreen DVDs; the extra space on the sides makes it useful to place all the toolbars while doing post processing.

No format fits everyone's needs but I think reality is different from what one wishes some times. Other than that, there is no problem to crop and show things in 3:2 or 4:3 format if one finds that more suitable. I doubt that most cameras are used for portraits anyway. Large 16:9 TVs and monitors are almost the only ones sold here in Sweden nowadays and I don't think Sweden is the only place where that is a reality. It is definitely used for much more than watching DVDs.

And surely the end results of great photos would be large poster-sized printouts adorning the walls of your home, no?

Yes, actually I have quite a few large prints on my walls, both in my home and in my office, and yes, a few of them are poster sized.

 

[Mikefellh]

Yes I agree to a degree, but (sorry to say) couldn't you have read the manual to get the answer? I am not very positive to questions that are easily found in manuals. Some people are just too lazy (I do not say you are) and post basic questions. That is abuse of helpful people who do their homework and learn their cameras. I have no idea how well your camera's manual is written,

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? I don't know how many times I've seen Oly users asking how the AF+MF feature works, and how many times they've asked the question how come when they turn the focus ring the lens doesn't move!

The manuals for the Olympus E-cameras are just as bad as any other manual out there. For instance, find the section that says how AUTO ISO works...it's not described in the E-1, E-300, E-500, or E-330 manuals. Most users expect the AUTO ISO to automatically adjust between 100-400 so they don't need to adjust it, but that doesn't happen. It only does that when you are using the flash, but the (english) manual doesn't tell you that! It's only from other users do you find out stuff like that, and not a month goes by where I don't see someone asking that question.

We are stronger together than apart, and the four thirds format needs MORE competition, not less, and more body and lens makers.

 

[vernonleow]

No format fits everyone's needs but I think reality is different from what one wishes some times. Other than that, there is no problem to crop and show things in 3:2 or 4:3 format if one finds that more suitable. I doubt that most cameras are used for portraits anyway. Large 16:9 TVs and monitors are almost the only ones sold here in Sweden nowadays and I don't think Sweden is the only place where that is a reality. It is definitely used for much more than watching DVDs.

Yes, actually I have quite a few large prints on my walls, both in my home and in my office, and yes, a few of them are poster sized.

You doubt that most cameras are used for portraits?? Wow! Since when and how come nobody told me?? It is fair to guess the Video Cameras are going to 16:9 format (some already are) because most TVs are now that format. People still view still images on Computer screens and on print more than on their TVs because it is really slow (and painful) to do so. And unless you are using a really good HD screen, the pictures don't come out looking that well.

By the way, I believe most new still cameras allow you to choose your recording format so you can actually shoot in 3:2 and save lots of money at your local Swedish photo lab.

 

[vernonleow]

That is not true, Oly still uses the name Olympus and as long as it is going to sell dSLR cameras it will continue to do so. It is not snobbery, it is called business. I believe Olympus does not have any control over the quality other manufacturers can produce and will continue to use Olympus as brand and quality stamp and FourThirds as a standard stamp. Just like when I buy a PC, I do not buy just a PC (open standard), I usually buy HP or Dell because these are the brands I trust. Call it snobbery if you like, I call it educated buyer with experience.

This forum is definitely a market place and advertisement. I do not pay a penny to be here. Do you? Most of the members do not, but I believe this site is financed by adverts and contributions from manufacturers. I do believe all Oly dSLR users know what FourThirds stands for. I also think that that group will be smaller and smaller if those who do not have Oly dSLRs are not informed. And that information is well hidden if brands are not mentioned. There is not even any indication that it is about dSLR. Just that it is a "Common Home...". Also, the structure makes it only natural to post Oly questions under Olympus. So, at least some clarifications are absolutely needed.

I don't get this one.:dunno:

Can you imagine what the name of the forum will look like when more brands adopt the 4/3 system? Already you left out Sigma. Kodak is also a 4/3 supporter actually. And so is Sanyo and Fujifilm.

The fact that Oly are pioneers should mean that most Oly users would be aware of 4/3. And of the three companies that currently produce bodies for 4/3, only Leica has other range of cameras for DSLR. Oly and Panasonic are clearly on the 4/3 path for DSLR. Anyone buying an L-1 or any Oly DSLR is buying into the 4/3 System, not just the brand. Thus, anyone looking for information in the forum section will look for the section related to 4/3.

Like I said earlier, not like they removed the Oly section. It's still there for the non-DSLR users and you can always go there to see what's going on.

Here's a simple test. Post something related to 4/3 in the Oly section and the same in this 4/3 section and see the response you get.

 

[OlyFlyer]

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? I don't know how many times I've seen Oly users asking how the AF+MF feature works, and how many times they've asked the question how come when they turn the focus ring the lens doesn't move!

The manuals for the Olympus E-cameras are just as bad as any other manual out there. For instance, find the section that says how AUTO ISO works...it's not described in the E-1, E-300, E-500, or E-330 manuals. Most users expect the AUTO ISO to automatically adjust between 100-400 so they don't need to adjust it, but that doesn't happen. It only does that when you are using the flash, but the (english) manual doesn't tell you that! It's only from other users do you find out stuff like that, and not a month goes by where I don't see someone asking that question.

We are stronger together than apart, and the four thirds format needs MORE competition, not less, and more body and lens makers.

So what? Off Topic, but I never said Oly manual was perfect. I have in fact argued the same day I recived my camera that Auto ISO is not working or badly described and I received a lot of beatings from fellow Oly users saying that it works fine, they don't want it any other way. Now, if somebody learns something by reading forums I do not mind that. What I do not like is when people are asking basic questions that are easily found in manuals, which this AF+MF question is not, as I understand. Making other people doing their homework just scares off helpful people in the end. I have had a lot of arguments about that on this forum a few months ago and I am not going to repeat that. I am really happy this guy got helped out by you. :thumbsup: That is all about the AF+MF isssue.

 

[OlyFlyer]

You doubt that most cameras are used for portraits?? Wow! Since when and how come nobody told me?? It is fair to guess the Video Cameras are going to 16:9 format (some already are) because most TVs are now that format. People still view still images on Computer screens and on print more than on their TVs because it is really slow (and painful) to do so. And unless you are using a really good HD screen, the pictures don't come out looking that well.

As for portraits, well if you call all family pictures portraits than yes, I have to correct myself, most cameras are used for portraits. I was thinking in a more professional way. Other than that, most cameras are not 4:3 but 3:2 or APS format. I believe 4:3 is best for portraits but that does not seem to stop pros from using Nikons and Canons. Those are used for portraits. How good a composition is is still up to the photographer and not the format. Even if you would have a 16:9 camera, what is wrong with that proportion? How can the world be so stupid and manufacture so many screens in that proportion if it is bad?

As for showing, I mostly show on TV for greater public since about 15 years. Definitely very high quality, way better than any TV picture if you do it right. Just the other day I discussed with a few friends, they had the same arguments you did, "Ohh it is toooo sloooow to show jpegs on TV..." and "Ohhh the picture is so bad on TV...." Here is how I do it. I use Nero and simply create DVD slide show, select the highest quality (2 pass) rendering. It takes time to make a DVD project, but once it is ready it is fast and high quality. The S-VHS output of the DVD player is connected to the S-VHS input on the TV. That is a much easier and better way of showing to public than to gather all people around one PC screen.

By the way, I believe most new still cameras allow you to choose your recording format so you can actually shoot in 3:2 and save lots of money at your local Swedish photo lab.

Just a rude question; which brand do you actually use? Do you really know a camera that allows multiple formats? My Oly and every other I know allows only 4:3. Now if it would be able to crop inside the camera I guess I would loose a few pixels. Actually, simple math says I would loose 13%, nearly 1 megapixel (904616 pixels to be exact) if the camera would be able to crop to maximum 3:2 size using the same sensor. Also the viewfinder has to be changed or else there is a risk for bad composition. So, which camera brand has multiple size support? You believe "most new still cameras..." sorry, that comment makes me wonder if you ever used a dSLR. :dunno:

Anyone buying an L-1 or any Oly DSLR is buying into the 4/3 System, not just the brand. Thus, anyone looking for information in the forum section will look for the section related to 4/3.

Again, I believe you are wrong. A person buying a camera is buying more than a lens fitting and sensor proportions. He/she is buying a camera body with buttons, ergonomy and many other things, amongst which the brand is also one important issue. Why? That is actually up to each one of us. In my case purely because of previous experience with Oly and their products, quality, price, performance, service level and quality, availability, service turn around time, support availability, customer relations and so on. I did not buy a FourThirds camera, I bught an Olympus E-500 which belongs to the FourThirds system group but it is still an Olympus. Just like I said before, I do not usually buy a PC (any PC) but I do buy HP and Dell personal computers (PCs). It is a big difference, and that is no brand snobism.

 

[Mikefellh]

what I mainly protest against is the anonimizing and hiding of Olympus dSLRs.

Maybe it's because you only got into it with the E-500 that you think that way. Those of us who were in it from the beginning know that Olympus is only one of the companies who developed the four thirds standard (the original camera was known as the Olydak for Olympus and Kodak), and we always expected more companies to develop lenses and bodies for the format.

 

[OlyFlyer]

Maybe it's because you only got into it with the E-500 that you think that way. Those of us who were in it from the beginning know that Olympus is only one of the companies who developed the four thirds standard (the original camera was known as the Olydak for Olympus and Kodak), and we always expected more companies to develop lenses and bodies for the format.

Please note that even in Olydak (if it ever existed) there is something refering to Oly. I am glad they did not rename it. What an ugly name, Olydak. Just imagine, how long would it take for some people to rename it to Olyduck, than Oly the Duck than they would shoot that duck. :bsmilie:

If Oly would think the name Olympus is not important they would not use it. Come on, Mike, I am sure you know company name and image IS VERY IMPORTANT also in this business. If it was not they would not spend money on putting the brand name everywhere well visible, even on the strap. It is important for you also, surly you are not going to shop a camera, just any camera as long as it is 4/3, you take the one you like. And that one has a name, not just belongs to a larger group. Just like people, just because you are American or Canadian or whatever, surly you can not say everyone is the same because they all come from the same group. Not even in you own family everybody is the same. Yes, there are some similarities but definitely everybody is different.

By that, I am not saying it is not important to help each other. Of course I also do my best if time permits. Actually that regardless if 4/3 is involved or not. I don't really care which brand people have, that is mainly a matter of individual taste. What unite us is the common interest we have, the photography. I think there is not much more to say, we are just going around in circles. Let's just say we disagree and we have the right to do that. I hardly think anybody would be hurt if brand name was mentioned after the "Common home" stuff. That's all. That way even newbies and other non-Oly people could find to the 4/3 section.

 

[cire07]

Morning...

How abt "Common Home... pioneered by Olympus"...?

That's still a fact ain't it?

Then add a sticky/link/url etc etc... (sorry i dunno the correct terminology) at the "Olympus" sub-forum/forum which says something like "Click here for Olympus' DSLRs, at the 4/3s page..."

My 2 cents... :dunno:

Eric

 

[Mikefellh]

Mike, I am sure you know company name and image IS VERY IMPORTANT also in this business. If it was not they would not spend money on putting the brand name everywhere well visible, even on the strap. It is important for you also, surly you are not going to shop a camera, just any camera as long as it is 4/3, you take the one you like.

I'd understand if you were an Olympus representative, or an Olympus shareholder, but other than that why worry.

Maybe it's because I'm not loyal to any brand that we're at odds...while I have bought two Olympus cameras in a row (C-700 & E-300), I did look at many other brands before settling on Olympus again. If I was buying today I'd probably buy the Panasonic L1, because I like its controls better (especially the separate shutter and aperture controls, and extra programmable function buttons). When it comes time to buy my next camera, again I'll look at other brands, and not limit myself to either Olympus or even four thirds.

 

[OlyFlyer]

I'd understand if you were an Olympus representative, or an Olympus shareholder, but other than that why worry.

Maybe it's because I'm not loyal to any brand that we're at odds...while I have bought two Olympus cameras in a row (C-700 & E-300), I did look at many other brands before settling on Olympus again. If I was buying today I'd probably buy the Panasonic L1, because I like its controls better (especially the separate shutter and aperture controls, and extra programmable function buttons). When it comes time to buy my next camera, again I'll look at other brands, and not limit myself to either Olympus or even four thirds.

Mike, I don't feel we are at odds, just that we have different opinion. In the past I had Zenit-E, Minolta SRT-101, some Pentax, OM10 (just a few months), and OM2n. Now I have E-500 because I found that to be the best dSLR to move me from film to digital. I did not regret that choice, I like the camera but today if I was buying a new dSLR it would not be a 4/3 camera at all. Sorry, my loyalty ends here, I don't know if that can be called very loyal at all, but yes, I am loyal as long as I have a brand, I do not mind promoting what I have even if I am not getting paid for it. I would however more liked if the shoulder strap was just black, not having any name on it. That is just me.

 

[ExplorerZ]

then what about Nikon and Fuji? both uses the same system... :think:
pentax and samsung as well...