Epson Pigment vs Dye Ink

[erwinx]

However, I must say that I also don't see the utility of selecting ICM and yet leaving "no colour controls" unchecked.

based on what i've read it would seem the case. Your workflow of sending colour management duties to a specialised software engine rather than Microsoft's generic ICM 2.0 seems preferable.

But i take your point that the ICM option for different printer drivers may mean different things. For Canon it refers to using Windows ICM 2.0 to colour manage, thus overriding your specialised colour engines. Does the Epson 'ICM' option refer to something else.

 

[Zerstorer]

Problem with Epson here is that, different models and different driver revisions have different options.

In some other/older models, the 2 settings are separate. You can see this clearly in older epson printing guides on the net. In such a case, "No color adjustment" is the one to use if you are using custom profiles. ICM is checked only when printer colour management is to be applied, both settings are mutually exclusive and only one may be checked at any time.

In the R210 "no color controls" is tied to ICM setting. In this case however, I believe that "No color controls" overrides everything so that its the software conversion engine in use and the paper profile applied.

If "No color controls" is left unchecked with ICM checked, the results are not so clear. It might be that microsoft ICM is used, or maybe the software engine. The effect seems ambiguous, I'd leave it to those who use such settings to find it out whats the actual scenario.

 

[Watcher]

However, I must say that I also don't see the utility of selecting ICM and yet leaving "no colour controls" unchecked.

This is to enable you to generate a new printer/paper profile or let the application take over the paper profile when you check it.

If you read this, the image found at http://www.normankoren.com/Color_mgmt_image_flow.gif, you can see that there is a section that said "printer profile". I presume that by enabling (ie checking) the "No Color Adjustment", you are telling the system to not use the existing profile.

 

[Watcher]

Problem with Epson here is that, different models and different driver revisions have different options.

In some other/older models, the 2 settings are separate. You can see this clearly in older epson printing guides on the net. In such a case, "No color adjustment" is the one to use if you are using custom profiles. ICM is checked only when printer colour management is to be applied, both settings are mutually exclusive and only one may be checked at any time.

In the R210 "no color controls" is tied to ICM setting. In this case however, I believe that "No color controls" overrides everything so that its the software conversion engine in use and the paper profile applied.

If "No color controls" is left unchecked with ICM checked, the results are not so clear. It might be that microsoft ICM is used, or maybe the software engine. The effect seems ambiguous, I'd leave it to those who use such settings to find it out whats the actual scenario.

Frankly, it is not difficult to find out.

I did this experiment instead of just talking and not coming to a conclusion.

Take an image with a sRGB tag, use MS Picture and Fax viewer program, which does not understand profile nor do any color management, to print and set the following:

- ICM and not checking the box: The color came out about what I see on my calibrated monitor.
- ICM and checking the box: Colors came out flat, yellow and green cast even in gray areas and quite off colors.

This is then my baseline. This also tells you that 1), if you use ICM, you must leave the box uncheck to get at least close to actual image.

I then followed up by printing the image using PS CS with various combination of settings on both PS and on the printer driver. A total of 4 were printed. The results that equal to my baseline image have been those without the checking of the box.

Interpretation: There is no way of disabling the ICM engine (ie no color adjustment in the other drivers), but only the profile by checking it. However, it seems that if it is checked, the profile is not applied but ruins the print.

My guess is that since unlike the other printers, the R200/R210 does not have an option to select the paper profile independant of the printer profile, you cannot select any other profile other than the printer and then still needs the ICM engine to handle it. I suspect that in this case, they are using Microsoft's engine.

It does not matter which ICM Engine you choose: Adobe's ACE or Microsoft's ICM 2.0 or other third party ones; they are almost alike.

 

[Watcher]

it's interesting that as an expert in Epson printers, you are recommending checking the 'ICM' option in the Epson print dialogue. This is basically what this discussions is about. Is checking ICM the best way to go?

Well, on the R210/R200, it seems to as the other two options (see my screen capture on post #32) have others that does not seem as appropriate. See my post just above and the results that I obtained.

In many previous threads I've seen arguments go off track on arguments on tiny definitions. Heres another attempt - splitting hairs over 'Colour engine' vs 'colour management' (ICM option is listed under 'colour management' in the epson printer dialogue). I fully concede that my definition power not as good as yours.

You said "scheme" which ICM means ICM standard? No: it is not a MS product. A scheme is not a Color Management System/Engine. As for the comment about Apple, I'm rather surprise that you have not done a [URL=""http://developer.apple.com/dev/techsupport/insidemac/ACI/ACI-45.html#HEADING45-0]search[/URL]. Apple is the one that first put in a CMS into its OS, before MS IIRC, and even now and future, the rendering engine are and will be all color managed.

Shouldn't this thread, in order to help new users of Epson printers, be about whether it is better to check the 'ICM' option on the printer driver. Since you are quite well versed, please share why it is better to check the 'ICM' option. (i note that the printing guide from Epson Australia suggests otherwise). In particular, i'm sure you can enlighten us on what happens to printer gamut when 'ICM' is checked.

The example you showed is not the latest R210/R200 printer, which is the printer in discussion here.

 

[Zerstorer]

This is to enable you to generate a new printer/paper profile or let the application take over the paper profile when you check it.

To generate a test print to be profiled, yes this would be the way. But this is certainly NOT a viable print setting in any color managed print workflow.

If you read this, the image found at http://www.normankoren.com/Color_mgmt_image_flow.gif, you can see that there is a section that said "printer profile". I presume that by enabling (ie checking) the "No Color Adjustment", you are telling the system to not use the existing profile.

Checking "No colour adjustment" simply offloads all colour control from the printer to the software. If you are using updated or 3rd party paper profiles you have to set this.

 

[Zerstorer]

Frankly, it is not difficult to find out.

I did this experiment instead of just talking and not coming to a conclusion.

Take an image with a sRGB tag, use MS Picture and Fax viewer program, which does not understand profile nor do any color management, to print and set the following:

- ICM and not checking the box: The color came out about what I see on my calibrated monitor.
- ICM and checking the box: Colors came out flat, yellow and green cast even in gray areas and quite off colors.

This is then my baseline. This also tells you that 1), if you use ICM, you must leave the box uncheck to get at least close to actual image.

I'm afraid what you undertook above is simply a set of settings that can be considered user error. As I've mentioned in previous posts and in other threads, checking "no colour controls" requires you to be printing from a color managed program and have a output profile selected. What you did above is printing RAW data without any form of profile conversion.

No profile->Dark green yellow prints
Double application of profile-> Washed out magenta prints.
I believe I've mentioned this several times before.

I believe this discussion has been revolving about proper colour management and printing workflow, what you've described and tested above simply doesn't make sense.

Perhaps the following article may shed some light over the settings:http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps7_print/ps7_print_mac_2.htm
Take note on figures 5 and 6.

I then followed up by printing the image using PS CS with various combination of settings on both PS and on the printer driver. A total of 4 were printed. The results that equal to my baseline image have been those without the checking of the box.

For your settings to work, you would have to be using printer colour management and not be using external paper profiles. It may work for some users if your are not printing from a wide gamut, but you are severely limiting yourself this way.

Interpretation: There is no way of disabling the ICM engine (ie no color adjustment in the other drivers), but only the profile by checking it. However, it seems that if it is checked, the profile is not applied but ruins the print.

My guess is that since unlike the other printers, the R200/R210 does not have an option to select the paper profile independant of the printer profile, you cannot select any other profile other than the printer and then still needs the ICM engine to handle it. I suspect that in this case, they are using Microsoft's engine.

Wrong assumptions, I believe you have not been using any custom or 3rd party profiles. "No colour adjustment" refers to the printer driver colour controls. Setting this will handover control to the printing software which will have its own profile coversion engines.

It does not matter which ICM Engine you choose: Adobe's ACE or Microsoft's ICM 2.0 or other third party ones; they are almost alike.

Assuming if they have the same capabilities, they should be close, but let's just clarify some points.

1)What print settings are you using in Photoshop with your ICM("No colour controls" unchecked) setting? Care to list the options or post a screenshot of the print with preview dialogue?

 

[Watcher]

I'm afraid what you undertook above is simply a set of settings that can be considered user error. As I've mentioned in previous posts and in other threads, checking "no colour controls" requires you to be printing from a color managed program and have a output profile selected. What you did above is printing RAW data without any form of profile conversion.

No profile->Dark green yellow prints
Double application of profile-> Washed out magenta prints.
I believe I've mentioned this several times before.

I did it to do all combinations and to have a baseline. So the image printed is now my baseline to compare.

I believe this discussion has been revolving about proper colour management and printing workflow, what you've described and tested above simply doesn't make sense.

Perhaps the following article may shed some light over the settings:http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps7_print/ps7_print_mac_2.htm
Take note on figures 5 and 6.

I did figure 5 and it matches exactly with the the first print. For figure 6, there is no individual profile for R210.

For your settings to work, you would have to be using printer colour management and not be using external paper profiles. It may work for some users if your are not printing from a wide gamut, but you are severely limiting yourself this way.

Wrong assumptions, I believe you have not been using any custom or 3rd party profiles. "No colour adjustment" refers to the printer driver colour controls. Setting this will handover control to the printing software which will have its own profile coversion engines.

I only have Epson printer R210 displayed, not individual paper entries for glossy, matt, etc.

Assuming if they have the same capabilities, they should be close, but let's just clarify some points.

1)What print settings are you using in Photoshop with your ICM("No colour controls" unchecked) setting? Care to list the options or post a screenshot of the print with preview dialogue?

Will do both to show you that there isn't any other option for R210. To get what matches the baseline print, I used figure 5 and to set it to a printer profile, and yes, there is no specific paper profile available. I'll post up screen shots tonight.

 

[Watcher]

Here is the option in PS when I want to print:

Please tell me what else can I choose? There is no paper profile for the printer. Please see the screen shot I showed in post #32.

Different printer will have different driver and capabilities. You cannot apply what is present in 2100 or 4000 to the R210/R200. Please do not base too much of any previous experience with other Epson printers (and links to documents) as the printers all use different drivers which has different capabilities. It may be that Epson has no intention of letting the user have a set of independant paper profile that they can choose..

 

[Zerstorer]

Here is the option in PS when I want to print:

Please tell me what else can I choose? There is no paper profile for the printer. Please see the screen shot I showed in post #32.

You can choose this:

Apparently you are unaware of the existence of updated dedicated profiles for the R210 with each paper type. What you listed is just the canned printer profile used for printer colour management, it has no place in a proper colour managed workflow meant for accuracy.

Different printer will have different driver and capabilities. You cannot apply what is present in 2100 or 4000 to the R210/R200.

Indeed that is true, however the sad fact is that such basic capabilities are present in all photo models. No, I'm not referring to the 2100 or 4000 as I've pointed out to erwinx. I do own a R210 and just have some passing knowledge of how it should be used.

Please do not base too much of any previous experience with other Epson printers (and links to documents) as the printers all use different drivers which has different capabilities.

Won't disagree with this, however, all of the links I've provided will lead to the same answer if you would care to read them carefully enough. In fact, the very same conclusions are in the normenkoren links you provided as well as printing guides from both Epson and Ilford.

It may be that Epson has no intention of letting the user have a set of independant paper profile that they can choose..

I'm afraid that you may simply be unaware of the subtler aspects of epson printing and color management.

It would be simply laughable for epson to not allow the R210 to work with dedicated profiles. All of their photo printers have this capability.

 

[Watcher]

My mistake: for the canned profile, there is no way of separating the profile from the setting in the driver (ie there is no way of applying a glossy profile within PS).

Yes, you can have your own paper profile to be managed by an application and it can be applied if you click on the ICM and the "No color adjustment" option. However, for a $200+ printer, that is a very costly option that few here will practically take. To make your own profile require expensive equipment that cost more than 2x of the printer. Unless you already own the so-call print profilers, it is uneconomical to do so. While there are entities out there that can do profiles for you via (snail)mail, it too isn't cost effective as each profile cost about US$30-50. A few custom profiles will exceed the price of the printer.

For the overwhelming majority, the can profiles that come with the drivers will suffice.

 

[Zerstorer]

Yes, you can have your own paper profile to be managed by an application and it can be applied if you click on the ICM and the "No color adjustment" option. However, for a $200+ printer, that is a very costly option that few here will practically take. To make your own profile require expensive equipment that cost more than 2x of the printer. Unless you already own the so-call print profilers, it is uneconomical to do so. While there are entities out there that can do profiles for you via (snail)mail, it too isn't cost effective as each profile cost about US$30-50. A few custom profiles will exceed the price of the printer.

Well, good news is that the relatively good profiles are generally available as free downloads from the either paper or printer manufacturers, usually months after a products release. Epson, Kodak, Ilford even Konica offer profile downloads for certain models.

I've never advocated wilful expenditure, hence I won't overlook the issue of cost by offering expensive solutions. All the solutions are free, it just requires effort in searching.

For the overwhelming majority, the can profiles that come with the drivers will suffice.

That is true. In a similar vein, Adobe gamma does just fine for moniter calibration for most people as well. But if one has invested in costly hardware moniter calibrators suchs as the GM Eye-one he might be selling himself short by compromising in his printing workflow.

Basically, color management on the PC is still quite a messy affair that may be difficult to grasp. One may find that spending money on all that hardware may not bring the desired results. It just takes one mistake in the entire workflow(such as using wrong editing or output space e.g applying moniter profile as print profile) and the efforts may come to naught.

 

[erwinx]

Well, good news is that the relatively good profiles are generally available as free downloads from the either paper or printer manufacturers, usually months after a products release. Epson, Kodak, Ilford even Konica offer profile downloads for certain models.

I've never advocated wilful expenditure, hence I won't overlook the issue of cost by offering expensive solutions. All the solutions are free, it just requires effort in searching.

That is true. In a similar vein, Adobe gamma does just fine for moniter calibration for most people as well. But if one has invested in costly hardware moniter calibrators suchs as the GM Eye-one he might be selling himself short by compromising in his printing workflow.

well said. Thanks for your genuinely informative posts :thumbsup:

another thought on what 'ICM' in the print dialogue is. I notice that the Epson Mac dialogue doesn't have the 'ICM' option, does this imply that 'ICM' refers to Win ICM 2.0? (Mac Colorsync probably operates on a wider gamut than win ICM 2.0 so theres no need for a printer dialogue option to disable it, unlike win icm 2.0?)

 

[Zerstorer]

another thought on what 'ICM' in the print dialogue is. I notice that the Epson Mac dialogue doesn't have the 'ICM' option, does this imply that 'ICM' refers to Win ICM 2.0? (Mac Colorsync probably operates on a wider gamut than win ICM 2.0 so theres no need for a printer dialogue option to disable it, unlike win icm 2.0?)

It might be what you suggest, but I'm more inclined to think that its just a difference in naming convention. One important point is that the entire Mac OS and its companion programs are color managed by default, while it is not so for windows. Hence, listing Colorsync in the drivers might be somewhat redundant, whilst for windows having ICM there might just mean that it uses color management. Basically I *think* that if you use printer color management, ICM2.0 might be used, whilst if you set to "no color controls" the software engine will take over.

As for your comment about Colorsync operating on a wider gamut... I won't quite agree with that based on my understanding. There should be no inherent "gamut" involved in profile conversion engines. Any difference in ColorSync, ICM2.0, ACE, LittleCMS or would probably be just differences in how they map, translate and interpolate interdediate color values in the different color tables within the profiles.