Employ Singaporeans for what?

[stougard]

Last thing to complain. Haha. think mine comment is getting longer. Well, Singaporeans need to serve reservists. Sad to say, but if we don't serve, then if one day our neighbours start to think that they can push us around and start war, who will defend the country? Do you think the French, Americans, Malaysians, Indonesians, Chinese PRCs, Indians;etc, will take up the gun and defend Singapore??? I think we have to face the fact, YOU WAIT LONG LONG. They will all be queueing at Changi Airport getting their 1st class ticket back home where they have their citizenship, so left Singaporeans to defend our small dot on the map. That's why they give us citizenship and call us Singaporeans. Because even for me, I'll be coming back to defend the country, not because of my government, but because my family and friends are here, and because of my band of brothers who will also stand beside me.

You completly get the point here. Singapore is not a country as any other country. Singapore is huge company who provides a service to foreign companies and locals are here to make it.

- Safety place,
- English spoken, but Singaporeans speak 4 languages
- HDB for locals, to let house and private appartements at reasonnable prices.
- Cheap restaurant to feed locals and not overload normal restaurant by locals
- Strong local army to be safe
- ...

Continue to search, but how far you can see, Singapore has been done to provide a good and safety place to foreigners. Most locals live and work in this point of view, if you sleep in HDB, it's to keep the market reasonnable for me to rent a private appt, if you go to army it's to be sure I'm safe even if I never go to army, if you go to foodcourt, it's to keep normal restaurant free. If you life is not expensive, it's to keep your salary reasonnable, if you speak english it's to talk with me and if you speak Chinese, it's to talk with chinese companies ...

What do I do in back ? I manage a team of 15 peoples (some singaporeans) and bring back money from Europe/US to Singapore. I make a company, pay taxes ... I just pay Singapore to provide me all theses services.

In a way, your country is too safe to change this now. But at the end of the day, it's a win-win situation.

 

[jsbn]

The thing is perhaps I say PERHAPS certain factions in the party know about this myth and instead of actively dispeling it, encourages it to carry on and let it get more and more insidious. In this way, they let fear make the people vote for them and they dont have to lift a single finger.

Ironically, the man who first started out with this myth of 'tracing ballot paper based on Serial Number & NRIC' belongs to your favourite (perhaps) alternative party and the 'hero' of many - JB Jeyaratnam.

Further propagation of this myth is carried out thanks to the effort of the 'jewel' of the Alternatives - Singapore Democratic Party & Chee Soon Juan.

 

[jsbn]

Ya last year was my 1st time voting in election. Got a shock when they shout out my NRIC. I promised myself, 4 years later... They shout out aloud again, I GONA SHOUT BACK

"COMING LAH !!!!!"

Shout? Time to clean ur ears my friend. I was in front of the polling agent and she spoke in a relatively normal volume.

 

[jsbn]

You probably have met a local English teacher with a MA in English literature part-timing as a cab driver.

Have u met a cab driver who's a personal family photographer for MM Lee Kwan Yew?

Hell, I've met alot.... From secret 'ISD agents', personal assistants of Ministers, CEOs and Directors who are driving taxis.

I know times are bad, din know its this bad. :think:

 

[Sion]

In the context of the discussion:

Voulez-vous coucher avec moi?

With a stack of Sin $ in your hand, I think the women will want to say to you:

"Har mi pun air sai avec moi." :bsmilie:

 

[Bernard Ong]

My first job was working in a local Chinese firm. Boss is a Taiwanese. On the first day of interview, he told me that in the 1st year, i am not entitled to any leaves. I was surprised and shocked. I felt that this was not in accordance to the law of Singapore and its illegal. Since i desperately need a job after being unemployed for 6 months, i bit the bullet and accepted the contract. I quited in 7 months. When i looked around the office, there were only 2 Singaporeans out of 10.

In my current job where i have chance to travel around the region. I realised that in Taiwan, it is true that employees are no entitled leaves at all. Leaves are granted at the mercy of employers.

 

[yanyewkay]

Have u met a cab driver who's a personal family photographer for MM Lee Kwan Yew?

Hell, I've met alot.... From secret 'ISD agents', personal assistants of Ministers, CEOs and Directors who are driving taxis.

I know times are bad, din know its this bad. :think:

That's 'Kuan" not Kwan..

 

[Hoky]

You completly get the point here. Singapore is not a country as any other country. Singapore is huge company who provides a service to foreign companies and locals are here to make it.

- Safety place,
- English spoken, but Singaporeans speak 4 languages
- HDB for locals, to let house and private appartements at reasonnable prices.
- Cheap restaurant to feed locals and not overload normal restaurant by locals
- Strong local army to be safe
- ...

Continue to search, but how far you can see, Singapore has been done to provide a good and safety place to foreigners. Most locals live and work in this point of view, if you sleep in HDB, it's to keep the market reasonnable for me to rent a private appt, if you go to army it's to be sure I'm safe even if I never go to army, if you go to foodcourt, it's to keep normal restaurant free. If you life is not expensive, it's to keep your salary reasonnable, if you speak english it's to talk with me and if you speak Chinese, it's to talk with chinese companies ...

What do I do in back ? I manage a team of 15 peoples (some singaporeans) and bring back money from Europe/US to Singapore. I make a company, pay taxes ... I just pay Singapore to provide me all theses services.

In a way, your country is too safe to change this now. But at the end of the day, it's a win-win situation.

Hi Stougard,

First of all, welcome to Singapore and thanks for sharing your comments on this thread.
I applaud your praises for Singapore which I strongly agree on the four points you have listed.

As you have mentioned that we have the armed / police / civil forces to deter any possible invasion or terroism. This is possible by the hundreds of thousands of Singaporeans as well as the second generation SPR serving the Nation to protect the interest of Singapore and it's residents (be it temporary or permanent). The security of Singapore has tempted many investers and foreigners to work here. (Which the govt is trying to keep them here in Singapore for good)

Many foreigners have moved over to Singapore to work since the last decade and typically they would take up PRship for the tax incentives and subsidies which is very much comparable. And as Wong_se has mentioned earlier, Foreigners, SPRs and Singaporeans alike have to bear the high cost (along with GST, price hikes) of living in Singapore. However it has to be pointed out that a significant fraction of the PRs would not desire to live in Singapore permanently. (Meaning retiring here)

As the market grows more competitive, Singaporeans and 2nd Gen PR comes to the losing end when it comes to getting a job. This is made so by views of corporate HRs whom themselves may be first gen PR (my current and previous HR manager in my last job were 1st gen SPRs) who weighs costs and benefits of getting foreigners for the job.

I mentioned some of the "put offs" in my earlier threads such as disruption of work due to NS.
Here's another:
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/CPF/my-cpf/Hire-Emp/HireEmp4.htm
Employers have to pay employee's CPF while they are undergoing reservice.

We also have forums http://talkback.stomp.com.sg/forums/archive/index.php/t-7805.html talking about this.
On the issue who feel that Singaporeans complain a lot. This is typically due to the tight restrictions that Singapore has. We cannot strike / demostrate nor we can't speak openly about our issues. The internet thus has become a solace for us to express ourselves. There's nothing / very little that we can do to help ourselves for we have seen many who tried "fallen".

 

[Sjourn]

After spending 8 years abroad, I really longed to be in SG for good. Miss home, miss friends, miss family,miss the convenience, miss the safety, miss the systemactic ways of doing things, miss Linda Chew.

that said, it's always a love hate relationship. High cost living vs Low income pay.

I :heart: SG but SG don't:heart: me.....

:bsmilie:

 

[drakon09]

Have those persons have a cause to complain?

Do we want to be like Israel, or suffer like Kuwait did?

Do you wish to see UOB Plaza crumbling like the World Trade Center?

If one cannot see the necessity of protecting one's country, then I urge them to attempt to empathize with the Afghans or the Iraqis, if the memory of World War II eludes them.

 

[shinken]

Have those persons have a cause to complain?

Do we want to be like Israel, or suffer like Kuwait did?

Do you wish to see UOB Plaza crumbling like the World Trade Center?

If one cannot see the necessity of protecting one's country, then I urge them to attempt to empathize with the Afghans or the Iraqis, if the memory of World War II eludes them.

Apples to apples please. If NS is a necessary policy, then there should be policies to necessitate NS, not cripple the competitiveness of those who serve NS. Nobody is arguing against the need of NS here, as far as I can see.

 

[drakon09]

And that is why the civil service is not a private limited and vice versa.

Unfortunately this is such no? What is the government going to do when you have a boss that threatens his employee with the sack if he is not able to get deferment (as was highlighted in this thread earlier).

A lot of it is based on goodwill on all three parties; the employer, the employee and the country.

If someone may suggest a definitive solution that encourages the employer to willingly allow their employees to serve, that motivates the employee to give his time to serve the country freely AND at the same time provide all with fiscal gain, I think you might have got yourself a job in the PM's office.

Singapore has no natural resources, does not grow enough food to feed herself, does not produce enough water (at least for now), and no geographical depth. It is a tight ship, and needs to be run like one.

So something has got to give.

 

[shinken]

So something has got to give.

The giving parting need not only be exclusive to the contributing citizens.

Policies are currently eroding the competitive edge of these contributing citizens. That's a fact. In terms of demanding for time from the citizen and working hours from the employer, and offering alternatives in the form of relaxed policies against hiring more competitive foreigners by the government.

There are no definitive solutions to all these three, you dare say?

Well:

Time from the citizens can be argued for. We all play a part in our own defence.

Work hours from companies? And real efforts to convince or 'educate' these companies their role in defence, the same way the citizens have been indoctrinated? No?

If not, at least the employer doesn't have such ready access to alternatives in the form of non-citizens, whom, from the perspective of economic dollars, are definitely more competitive.

These are broad suggestions, feasible, and definitely has potential to be refined. Definitive solutions has to be worked out by those in the office, and takes papers and research, not fair to demand from a forum discussion.

Something's gotta give? I agree. But not on the whole part by the working citizen alone.

I'm only addressing your point on national service in this post.

 

[centuryegg]

Have those persons have a cause to complain?

Do we want to be like Israel, or suffer like Kuwait did?

Do you wish to see UOB Plaza crumbling like the World Trade Center?

If one cannot see the necessity of protecting one's country, then I urge them to attempt to empathize with the Afghans or the Iraqis, if the memory of World War II eludes them.

Errrrr I cannot understand what does Singapore have in common with Israel?? Last I heard Israel has been victorious in almost all their military campaigns except for that thorn in the flesh of Lebanon where for some reason they seem to always get bogged down. We dont see Israelites living in refugee camps nor them being oppressed by others. It is the other way round. As for World Trade Center? I believe that is an act of terrorism not war and blame it on the incompetence of the US intelligence services. And also nothing to do with this discussion....


It has become compare apple with potato.... a total mismatch.

 

[xeon11]

After spending 8 years abroad, I really longed to be in SG for good. Miss home, miss friends, miss family,miss the convenience, miss the safety, miss the systemactic ways of doing things, miss Linda Chew.

that said, it's always a love hate relationship. High cost living vs Low income pay.

I :heart: SG but SG don't:heart: me.....

:bsmilie:

haaa same sentiments here bro. I've been doing the living overseas, back sg, living overseas, back sg cycle for almost the past decade and i hate to say that i just dun feel sg as the same sg it used to be anymore.

dun get me wrong for not being a loyalist to my country of birth. I will always be a call sg my home no matter where i am as this is where my memories are and where i was brought up - not to mention the laksa, cha kway teow, kway chap makan places. Just that the recent spate of govt policies (esp. GST), over-reliance on foreign workers/talents etc. is creating this corporatised culture where the rich will only get richer, the poor will only get poorer and the middle class just get juiced further. A survey was even published on the straits times recently and the results speak for itself.

my place of work is just the same as most of the forumers here, where singaporeans are the minority. are singaporeans really that "expensive" to employ? dollar for dollar, are we really that worse off compared to foreigners when it comes to efficiency and productivity?

My answer is Yes and No.

Yes - for some singaporeans who just complain for not getting "first class citizen" treatment, content with a 9-5 job, dun take initiatives, no promotion nevermind, just dun touch my rice bowl kind of mentality.

NO - for most of us who ploughed our way up, upgraded our skills and only to find out later that our annual increment is lower than most of the foreign talents here simply because our "total pay package" is higher than theirs. Total package in this case means employer CPF contribution, annual 3 weeks NS leave etc etc.

My personal thought is that if the govt is still doing nothing in the next 5 years, the situation will only get worse. Within my cohort, i have at least 35% of my mates migrated to
Australia, Canada and even US and it's a growing trend amongst the younger generation as well. I have no idea whatsoever what's being taught in the singapore curriculum these days but as far as i remember, we have never thought abt leaving singapore during our younger days....

dun get me wrong as i do welcome foreign talents/workers. Just that i reckon the govt should re-look at the scale of it and how it is affecting the lower and middle income earners.

just my 2 cents worth.

 

[centuryegg]

haaa same sentiments here bro. I've been doing the living overseas, back sg, living overseas, back sg cycle for almost the past decade and i hate to say that i just dun feel sg as the same sg it used to be anymore.

dun get me wrong for not being a loyalist to my country of birth. I will always be a call sg my home no matter where i am as this is where my memories are and where i was brought up - not to mention the laksa, cha kway teow, kway chap makan places. Just that the recent spate of govt policies (esp. GST), over-reliance on foreign workers/talents etc. is creating this corporatised culture where the rich will only get richer, the poor will only get poorer and the middle class just get juiced further. A survey was even published on the straits times recently and the results speak for itself.

my place of work is just the same as most of the forumers here, where singaporeans are the minority. are singaporeans really that "expensive" to employ? dollar for dollar, are we really that worse off compared to foreigners when it comes to efficiency and productivity?

My answer is Yes and No.

Yes - for some singaporeans who just complain for not getting "first class citizen" treatment, content with a 9-5 job, dun take initiatives, no promotion nevermind, just dun touch my rice bowl kind of mentality.

NO - for most of us who ploughed our way up, upgraded our skills and only to find out later that our annual increment is lower than most of the foreign talents here simply because our "total pay package" is higher than theirs. Total package in this case means employer CPF contribution, annual 3 weeks NS leave etc etc.

My personal thought is that if the govt is still doing nothing in the next 5 years, the situation will only get worse. Within my cohort, i have at least 35% of my mates migrated to
Australia, Canada and even US and it's a growing trend amongst the younger generation as well. I have no idea whatsoever what's being taught in the singapore curriculum these days but as far as i remember, we have never thought abt leaving singapore during our younger days....

dun get me wrong as i do welcome foreign talents/workers. Just that i reckon the govt should re-look at the scale of it and how it is affecting the lower and middle income earners.

just my 2 cents worth.

Yes unfortunately these facts are swept under the carpet. Afterall as some have said, it seems that the policies that assure Singapore remains a viable business entity so that the benefits are reaped by the upper echelon of society. The poor being very obviously poor get help because they get press coverage and it would seem really unslightly if the government is not seen doing anything. However the middle class being not elgible for any assistance gets squashed.

And for your information, our govt still feels that people who leave are "QUITTERS", well if that is the case are we not engaging a whole lot of quitters aka FTs?

 

[alexlim78]

In my current job where i have chance to travel around the region. I realised that in Taiwan, it is true that employees are no entitled leaves at all. Leaves are granted at the mercy of employers.

Ermm.. I doubt that.. I'm working in Taiwan now, although the leave entitlement is less compared to Singapore, but it is not as bad. ^_^

 

[alexlim78]

My personal thought is that if the govt is still doing nothing in the next 5 years, the situation will only get worse. Within my cohort, i have at least 35% of my mates migrated to
Australia, Canada and even US and it's a growing trend amongst the younger generation as well. I have no idea whatsoever what's being taught in the singapore curriculum these days but as far as i remember, we have never thought abt leaving singapore during our younger days....
just my 2 cents worth.

2x :thumbsup: for you ^_^ I fully agree. Seriously, if my government don't take care of me, why should I take care of my government? I feel that its all man for themselves in this society. Let's make a guess, if there is really a war in Singapore, will the ministers be here to defend it??? Make a guess..

Anyway, if you can, don't work in Singapore. Because the local employers are no longer looking after locals. So since we are given the same or maybe worse treatment, go other places where you are valued. Its just not worth it in Singapore.

 

[alexlim78]

In a way, your country is too safe to change this now. But at the end of the day, it's a win-win situation.

Sorry to say that but I seriously don't see it as a win-win situation. Cos in the end, the people who lose out are the singaporeans because they will be the people left to clear the S*** when the time comes. Its like guests at your party, do you think your guests will help you to clean up the mess after they had a good time??

So Singaporeans, we should be like the national day song, "stand up for Singapore", you should stand up for singapore and start walking and working out of singapore. why mix yourself in the same pile of mess and get yourself dirty?

 

[drakon09]

Time from the citizens can be argued for. We all play a part in our own defence.

Work hours from companies? And real efforts to convince or 'educate' these companies their role in defence, the same way the citizens have been indoctrinated? No?

If not, at least the employer doesn't have such ready access to alternatives in the form of non-citizens, whom, from the perspective of economic dollars, are definitely more competitive.

These are broad suggestions, feasible, and definitely has potential to be refined. Definitive solutions has to be worked out by those in the office, and takes papers and research, not fair to demand from a forum discussion.

Something's gotta give? I agree. But not on the whole part by the working citizen alone.

I'm only addressing your point on national service in this post.

I'll take you up on these points that you brought up. And no, I am not saying the burden should be borne by the citizen alone.

Your suggestion of education is ideal, but are profit-driven companies that noble?

Restricting foreign talent is not feasible, if Singapore aspires to be a global city.

In bringing up the NS issue, I was not attempting to compare apples with apples, just taking a step back to look at the tree.

Something's got to give; and in retrospect, I shall voice out the concerns of the TS.

Why employ Singaporeans at all?