[ Discuss ] EP5 vs GX7. Or EM5?

[tsammyc]

More....

I've explained many times what I think is going on with the E-P5 - it just seems unusually susceptible to shake movements in a certain shutter speed range that the IS system can't correct. This results in a distinct double-image blurring in perhaps 60% - 70% of your shots at the 'danger' speeds, although this will be visible to a greater or lesser extent depending on other factors (for example, noise reduction at high ISOs will tend to mask it completely).

Note that the E-P5 is very different to the E-M5 here - this specific double-image blurring simply isn't visible from the latter when the two are shot side-by-side under controlled conditions. This doesn't necessarily mean there's no such thing as 'shutter shock' at all, either - just that I don't think it explains the specific blurring we see from the E-P5.

Andy Westlake
dpreview.com

 

[keithwee]

ok...

too many words. I have been doing too many literature reviews at work lately so let's have a summary.

in short. It is claimed by -

Ray from mu43 forums that:

GX7 is slightly soft at 1/100, notably soft at 1/125. Weirdly soft at 1/60 on tripod.
EP5 is soft at 1/100, sharpens up from 1/125 onwards.

DPReview:

GX7 is Not reviewed yet
EP5 is soft from 1/80 to 1/200 - no other reviewers have mentioned this issue.

- Oly SG is following up on the issue. - Pana SG so far is deadbeat , no answer yet.

and my view is:

just go and shoot if u've either cameras. Both r great, have fun with them.

so far , we have only read claims, not facts.
So far I've replied to 5 pple who PM-Ed saying they are reconsidering buying either camera due to these claims. Kinda sad.

Locally I have heard no one saying they have faced this issues.

--update--

Akkers here have kindly told me he had asked Robin Wong about the issue and Robin has replied that he did not encounter the said issue, and he had tested the EP5 extensively.

Ming Thein have kindly just replied that he did not experience this issue when he did his test on a production copy. I believe anyone who read reviews will know Ming Thein does in depth reviews.

WongLP probably will be checking his photos.

I probably will just buy the GX7 for the heck of testing it out and selling it later for the 12-40 lens. Harvey norman I'm coming! Haha

 

[Agrivar]

ok... too many words. I have been doing too many literature reviews at work lately so let's have a summary. in short. It is claimed by - Ray from mu43 forums that: GX7 is slightly soft at 1/100, notably soft at 1/125. Weirdly soft at 1/60 on tripod. EP5 is soft at 1/100, sharpens up from 1/125 onwards. DPReview: GX7 is Not reviewed yet EP5 is soft from 1/80 to 1/200 - no other reviewers have mentioned this issue. - Oly SG is following up on the issue. - Pana SG so far is deadbeat , no answer yet. and my view is: just go and shoot if u've either cameras. Both r great, have fun with them. so far , we have only read claims, not facts. So far I've replied to 5 pple who PM-Ed saying they are reconsidering buying either camera due to these claims. Kinda sad. Locally I have heard no one saying they have faced this issues. --update-- Akkers here have kindly told me he had asked Robin Wong about the issue and Robin has replied that he did not encounter the said issue, and he had tested the EP5 extensively. Ming Thein have kindly just replied that he did not experience this issue when he did his test on a production copy. I believe anyone who read reviews will know Ming Thein does in depth reviews. WongLP probably will be checking his photos. I probably will just buy the GX7 for the heck of testing it out and selling it later for the 12-40 lens. Harvey norman I'm coming! Haha

Ill buy the gx7 from you after you've done the rear at 50% discount

 

[keithwee]

Ill buy the gx7 from you after you've done the rear at 50% discount

Bro ah bro ... Hahaha

 

[RyanKhoo]

I probably will just buy the GX7 for the heck of testing it out and selling it later for the 12-40 lens. Harvey norman I'm coming! Haha

Ill buy the gx7 from you after you've done the rear at 40% discount ... :bsmilie:

 

[Agrivar]

Ill buy the gx7 from you after you've done the rear at 40% discount ... :bsmilie:

35% discount

 

[RyanKhoo]

35% discount

Looks like we are having an auction here ...

 

[keithwee]

i am speechless.....

 

[keithwee]

Just a quick update when i managed to catch up on reading the discussions at DPReview today. These discussions follow on what was discussed in the EP5 review.

EP5 Shutter shock issues
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3555896?page=1

- last few postings are that it has kinda degenerated into chaos with terms like 'crooked right hand', 'stochastic analysis' , 'adding mass', 'aluminium tripod heavier than carbon fibre tripod' etc.. prob wait for someone to start a new thread.

I kinda feel sorry for the moderators and reviewer & will only reproduce the summations from the Reviewer n Admin here since their words by all rights hold more weight. (rest u can read la)

Andy Westlake (Admin, DPreview) has weighed in :
'I can see shutter shock on the E-P5 quite clearly, if I look hard enough. But I have to use a 40-150mm at 150mm on a 'wobbly' tripod to do so.'
' In practice, 2 second anti-shock gives just as much shake as 2 second self-timer. That's difficult for me to fit with a shutter shock explanation.'

Anders W (who wrote about the shutter shock issue): Your (referring to Andy) experiences with tripod-based shooting with the E-P5 as described above are fully in line with what I'd expect based on my testing for shutter shock with other bodies. With really long FLs, I can see some blur due to shutter shock when shooting off a tripod but with shorter FLs, it's hard to see any clear signs of it (although some minor reduction of resolution is still conceivable and might be revealed by outright MTF tests).

Solution: I think it really means do use a tripod when shooting at 300mm FL and ya, hold your camera properly k.

limitations if you wana engage the Anti-shock feature

Wait 0.0125 seconds for the exposure to engage after pressing it.

now it has moved onto GX7. I kinda feel that no one at DPReview gonna have the guts to write a GX7 review.

GX7 Shutter shock issues

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3552403

Shutter shock evidently clear on 14-42x but absent on 12-35mm.

Solution : Engage E-Shutter.

Limitations of Lumix E-Shutter

- Longest shutter speed 1 sec

- E-Shutter scans the frame in 1/10 second. It's slow. Three consequences can flow from this :
1) "leaning" and other shape distortions with moving subjects,
2) banding with fluorescent and possibly other light sources, and
3) No flash possible.

No side has solved the big question of how does combination of lens and body affect the results either in the EP5 or GX7 case.

my 2cents? YOLO,what is more important? Reading and wallowing in review/comments or going out to shoot and have fun? haha.

 

[tsammyc]

Andy Westlake of DP Review clearly says that he thinks that the problem is unique to the EP5 and that it's not shutter shock, but also some issue with the IBIS. He sees it clearly and often when using the Oly 45mm so it's not a matter of holding a 300mm lens carefully. He (DP Review) does not recommend the EP5 because of the blurring (remember he doesn't think it's shutter shock). His personal camera is an EM5, which he says does not have the problem.

Anders W is a very technical person who argues that the problem is shutter shock, but that's theoretical. He does not have a EP5 to test.

On your link to a GX7 test by some random forumer, lets wait for DP Reviews conclusion. They have posted a gallery they shot so you can look to see if it is there. It's not clear at all that the GX7 suffers from this problem to a trouble owners. If so, you will not need to use the E-shutter unless you want a critical landscape or to shoot silently.

 

[keithwee]

thanks for pointing out the Oly 45mm issue and that Anders doesn't have a EP5 to test. I totally missed that and that's my bad. Not as well read.

Gonna try that over the weekend since I'm doing a shoot with the 45/1.8 mainly anyway. I don't have a 300mm lens and after just buying the GX7, i gotta eat a bit more bread and water for this month haha.

So far, I must say the GX7 itself is a substantially good improvement over the GX, GF models. I really wish Oly would have done a better grip for the EP5 as compared to the GX7 grip.

and oh dear, I should email DpReview to lower the rating for EP5 too, you just can't justify rating a camera at 78% if you aren't recommending a camera whether you are Dpreview or Andy Westlake. That's a total lack of integrity.

I do disagree with the 'random forumer' remark. I'm also just a random forumer too. :/

And relax la

 

[bousozoku]

Andy Westlake of DP Review clearly says that he thinks that the problem is unique to the EP5 and that it's not shutter shock, but also some issue with the IBIS. He sees it clearly and often when using the Oly 45mm so it's not a matter of holding a 300mm lens carefully. He (DP Review) does not recommend the EP5 because of the blurring (remember he doesn't think it's shutter shock). His personal camera is an EM5, which he says does not have the problem.

Anders W is a very technical person who argues that the problem is shutter shock, but that's theoretical. He does not have a EP5 to test.

On your link to a GX7 test by some random forumer, lets wait for DP Reviews conclusion. They have posted a gallery they shot so you can look to see if it is there. It's not clear at all that the GX7 suffers from this problem to a trouble owners. If so, you will not need to use the E-shutter unless you want a critical landscape or to shoot silently.

If he's using the E-P5 on a tripod, it shouldn't be an issue with IBIS, because IBIS should be off/disabled.

 

[tsammyc]

I do disagree with the 'random forumer' remark. I'm also just a random forumer too. :/

As you know you cannot believe everything on the internet. You have some reputation on Clubsnap after thousands of posts and therefore some credibility, hence you are not a random forumer to our M43 community.

Although I don't agree with everything in DP Review, it is the biggest camera review site on the internet, so there is some expectation that they do their tests professionally.

 

[bousozoku]

...
Although I don't agree with everything in DP Review, it is the biggest camera review site on the internet, so there is some expectation that they do their tests professionally.

I've never had any such expectation of DPReview. I trust What Digital Camera magazine for reviews, and generally, DPReview has similar outcomes with Nikon and Canon equipment. However, they got out of their way quite often to berate other equipment, especially when it's not 135 format or using APS-C sized sensors--even medium format is less for them.

 

[keithwee]

As you know you cannot believe everything on the internet. You have some reputation on Clubsnap after thousands of posts and therefore some credibility, hence you are not a random forumer to our M43 community.

Although I don't agree with everything in DP Review, it is the biggest camera review site on the internet, so there is some expectation that they do their tests professionally.

agree we should always take an objective view coming to these reviews. Just that DPReview like it or not, is one of the more reputable ones, and as such - definitely imposes more impact.
Like i had previously said, the no of potential buyers turned off from EP5 or GX7 from these reports has kinda saddened me as they have missed their opportunity to shoot a very quality camera.

 

[NazgulKing]

agree we should always take an objective view coming to these reviews. Just that DPReview like it or not, is one of the more reputable ones, and as such - definitely imposes more impact.
Like i had previously said, the no of potential buyers turned off from EP5 or GX7 from these reports has kinda saddened me as they have missed their opportunity to shoot a very quality camera.

Ugh. Who really cares about people who worry more about gear than on the picture quality anyway?

 

[tsammyc]

I've never had any such expectation of DPReview. I trust What Digital Camera magazine for reviews, and generally, DPReview has similar outcomes with Nikon and Canon equipment. However, they got out of their way quite often to berate other equipment, especially when it's not 135 format or using APS-C sized sensors--even medium format is less for them.

Eh. I remember DP Review's review on the OMD was one reason I bought it. I didn't consider M43 before the OMD. DP Review showed that it was a game changer, the first M43 that equaled APS-C and bettered it in some things. It was only months later that what I saw with my eyes and in the review was confirmed by DXO Mark and now we know why... it was the first M43 to use a Sony Exmor sensor.

 

[tsammyc]

Ugh. Who really cares about people who worry more about gear than on the picture quality anyway?

I think if you set the camera on P mode and just go around snapping thousands of photos and throwing away most then you don't really need to worry about gear. However I've found that by reading reviews of bodies and lenses carefully, I know how to use them better. I try to remember which aperture a lens is sharpest at, and for zooms, certain focal lengths are sharper than others. I know certain WA lenses flare terribly, so I try to avoid sun coming in at an oblique angle. If I know the EP5 gets double images at 1/160th then I won't shoot with it in that range.

 

[spidey89]

I think if you set the camera on P mode and just go around snapping thousands of photos and throwing away most then you don't really need to worry about gear. However I've found that by reading reviews of bodies and lenses carefully, I know how to use them better. I try to remember which aperture a lens is sharpest at, and for zooms, certain focal lengths are sharper than others. I know certain WA lenses flare terribly, so I try to avoid sun coming in at an oblique angle. If I know the EP5 gets double images at 1/160th then I won't shoot with it in that range.

What NazgulKing probably meant was people who worry about how well they perform, like Camera A can shoot 1 EV better than Camera B. Or how one take care of their camera like a baby. I've not really seen people take care of their camera until it's like a baby, but I know there are people like that, one such person would be my uncle hahaha. Whereas some people like Headfonz has scratches, knocks here and there and does bother. My D3 has a silver scar on his prism hump and I just covered it with gaffer tape hahaha

 

[keithwee]

Ugh. Who really cares about people who worry more about gear than on the picture quality anyway?

a really blunt way of stating a fact but be careful not to be mis-intepreted but i get what u mean. respect.