defense for pple sued by odex?

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

back to topic...defense for pple...just thought of a few points while jogging just now...

1) legality of "evidence" obtained by xedo...i read somewhere that someone did a test using bt and found that the "evidence" is akin to someone seeing u entering a building where murder took place, and accuse you of murder...however no concrete evidence..can someone enlighten me?

2) physical evidence. i think this would have to be the police physically scanning your HDD for evidence of downloaded anime. there are various *ahem* tools that are U.S DOD compliant...not saying anything here

3) xedo acting on behalf of jap coys or on its own? it says it represents the jap coys, but not sure whether the jap coys are even giving a damn to what's happening

4) xedo saying sales fallen due to downloading. arguable coz 99% of the list they put up which they have "distribution rights" are not even on sale.

5) IF xedo does press civil charges though, one impt key concern is which line the judge is standing on. top of my mind is that if judge says xedo has no case, it may seem to other countries that sg does not respect IP, which is contrary to what our garmen is trying to tell the other countries

mi not legal trained hor....just my 2.5 cents worth of thoughs

1) Not murderer but still a prime suspect... hence unless proven guilty

2) Unless u try to contest them, else i dun see they are able to get warrant to do such things, esp to 1k people...

3) May or may not... u wanna try asking them on our behalf?

4) True, unless we are able to get real concrete evidence, for eg, from every shop which get stocks from XEDO, then we tabulate what are the stocks that are available in the market... then cross reference with the items download, and from there we are able to say those are not justifiable... but then again, who so free?

5) Well, judge 1st of all must be fair... if XEDO really bring people to court, with sufficient evidence, the guy will get it... how ever, can XEDO bring them to court in the 1st case? even so, its still at small claims tribunal for anything less than (last check) 10k... so you think it will be sensational yet? able to pull a guy to high court for downloading probably 10 anime? that will be extremely overkill... well, now they can prove u download, but can't prove you upload... or the amount you uploaded. thats why its hard for them to pull you to court, not impossible, but hard, each person to drag to a high court, need approx 20k reserve... hence a class action is more viable. and probably they would be anticipating one of it, so if they significantly win, it will earn them more money, and also recognition...

lets talk about maybe if i am XEDO... what would i have done...

Publicity...

I'll tell Singaporeans that hey, downloading is bad... then i'll catch those people... probably 1k each, but i only give them warning, no fine, no nothing just warning... and ask those super heavy downloaders to print an ad on the papers to apologise... its free advertisement.

So from then on, most people will not download... it will boost sales, boost their company image etc, win win situation...

Seriously, look at them, so what if they win and get the money... XEDO's reputation is in the drain already...

 

[vince123123]

Eh, Small Claims Tribunal does not have jurisdiction to hear copyright infringement cases, whether civil or criminal.

 

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

Eh, Small Claims Tribunal does not have jurisdiction to hear copyright infringement cases, whether civil or criminal.

then 5k go high court?:think:

 

[eikin]

Eh, Small Claims Tribunal does not have jurisdiction to hear copyright infringement cases, whether civil or criminal.

can Xedo sue for copyright infringement in the first place?

 

[mookie]

1) Not murderer but still a prime suspect... hence unless proven guilty

2) Unless u try to contest them, else i dun see they are able to get warrant to do such things, esp to 1k people...

3) May or may not... u wanna try asking them on our behalf?

4) True, unless we are able to get real concrete evidence, for eg, from every shop which get stocks from XEDO, then we tabulate what are the stocks that are available in the market... then cross reference with the items download, and from there we are able to say those are not justifiable... but then again, who so free?

5) Well, judge 1st of all must be fair... if XEDO really bring people to court, with sufficient evidence, the guy will get it... how ever, can XEDO bring them to court in the 1st case? even so, its still at small claims tribunal for anything less than (last check) 10k... so you think it will be sensational yet? able to pull a guy to high court for downloading probably 10 anime? that will be extremely overkill... well, now they can prove u download, but can't prove you upload... or the amount you uploaded. thats why its hard for them to pull you to court, not impossible, but hard, each person to drag to a high court, need approx 20k reserve... hence a class action is more viable. and probably they would be anticipating one of it, so if they significantly win, it will earn them more money, and also recognition...

lets talk about maybe if i am XEDO... what would i have done...

Publicity...

I'll tell Singaporeans that hey, downloading is bad... then i'll catch those people... probably 1k each, but i only give them warning, no fine, no nothing just warning... and ask those super heavy downloaders to print an ad on the papers to apologise... its free advertisement.

So from then on, most people will not download... it will boost sales, boost their company image etc, win win situation...

Seriously, look at them, so what if they win and get the money... XEDO's reputation is in the drain already...

1) yup in sg is innocent until proven guilty, so xedo will have to prove it

2) yup defense on our side

3) grey area

4) IF really goes to that point..might have to do that

5) eh not too sure...any legal trained personnel here??

 

[mookie]

can Xedo sue for copyright infringement in the first place?

they are claiming they are sueing on behalf of the jap coys for copyright infringement

 

[vince123123]

I don't know what "then 5k go high court" means, but you can start copyright infringement in both the Subordinate and High Courts I believe (need to check to confirm), however SCT is confirm out.

then 5k go high court?:think:

 

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

I don't know what "then 5k go high court" means, but you can start copyright infringement in both the Subordinate and High Courts I believe (need to check to confirm), however SCT is confirm out.

i mean, 5k able to drag someone to high court? or they going to raise the amount to 20k?

 

[yqt]

back to topic...defense for pple...just thought of a few points while jogging just now...

1) legality of "evidence" obtained by xedo...i read somewhere that someone did a test using bt and found that the "evidence" is akin to someone seeing u entering a building where murder took place, and accuse you of murder...however no concrete evidence..can someone enlighten me?

This may be true but since the courts have rule in favor of Odex over Starhub in the earlier case, I assume that the courts have looked at it and decide that they have reason to prove the downloading. If the evidence is really suspected, Starhub would have bought it up, would they not?

2) physical evidence. i think this would have to be the police physically scanning your HDD for evidence of downloaded anime. there are various *ahem* tools that are U.S DOD compliant...not saying anything here

I'm no tech expert but every time you down load something I'm sure there's some sort of trace/capture, like the server you are downloading from must know where to downloan to or where to sent the info to, right? The question is would this evidence be good enough for the courts? Can this be contested? Will anyone, who know that they have done the downloading, thus is guilty of it, dare to contest it?

3) xedo acting on behalf of jap coys or on its own? it says it represents the jap coys, but not sure whether the jap coys are even giving a damn to what's happening

It depands on what is in their contract with the jap coys. I remember reading from one of the links that they have gone after some bootleg coy over copyrights before so they may really be representing the jap coys. Again, in the earlier case with Starhub the courts must have looked to see if they are the rightful person to request/demand for the IPs, do they have a lawful right to know.

4) xedo saying sales fallen due to downloading. arguable coz 99% of the list they put up which they have "distribution rights" are not even on sale.

Up to an accountant to do the sums but they can claim for lost of future earnings due to the downloading. Odex pay for the distribution rights for titles which they want to bring in later but no one will buy because most already have a downloaded copy.

5) IF xedo does press civil charges though, one impt key concern is which line the judge is standing on. top of my mind is that if judge says xedo has no case, it may seem to other countries that sg does not respect IP, which is contrary to what our garmen is trying to tell the other countries

Actually, I'm of the opinion that they do have a case. Remember that downloading in itself is illegal already, just that Odex will have a lot of work to do.

As I've posted earlier, all Odex need to do is to pool in all their moola and fight a good first case. Once they have a ruling in their favour, they can write to the AG office to complain about the copyrights infringement with the ruling they got ( meaning the court agreed that there is illegal downloading ). Once AG office takes action, it becomes a criminal offense which will mean a criminal record. Things will be much easier for Odex from than on.

I'm not a legal expert here, just a layman looking at this from another prospective and giving my layman view.

 

[vince123123]

There is no minimum claim sum in order to bring any case to any court. There is only a maximum claim sum (like SCT's max jurisdiction of 10/20k etc).

i mean, 5k able to drag someone to high court? or they going to raise the amount to 20k?

 

[lsisaxon]

This seems very similar to what Telahin did about 15 years or so back for software. Now there's BSA.

In fact I'm more concerned about paying for royalty unpaid products from CD/DVD shops. Do all of them assume that if they obtained the products legally in China means it's legal here?

 

[vince123123]

If they are legitimate copies made in CHina, they would be legit here as well. Parallel Imports are legitimate.

This seems very similar to what Telahin did about 15 years or so back for software. Now there's BSA.

In fact I'm more concerned about paying for royalty unpaid products from CD/DVD shops. Do all of them assume that if they obtained the products legally in China means it's legal here?

 

[radedward]

I know how people can liken the downloaders to thieves but let's step back here for a minute.

Anime is a primarily broadcasted through a medium that is free-to-air i.e. television. The fansubbers add value to the original product at no profit to themselves.

How is that wrong?
Who is making money off these downloads?
How is this different from taping a program direct from the TV?

In that case, ODEX has a case against anyone who records anime on Animax off Starhub digital cable using the HDD recorder that Starhub itself provides.

The people who are comparing this to people who leach photos for commercial use should think a little bit more about their comparison. How is distributing a product that was originally free in the first place criminal?

The reason why anyone would want to buy a VCD or DVD is because they will be getting extra value that they would otherwise not get simply by viewing the anime. ODEX simply does not provide that value, unlike region 1 DVDs which offer tons of extras and are uncensored.

Anyway, for the legal side of things, there's a article that I read that might help in the defence for the people who are getting sued but not sure if any of them will see this to use it. It's based on the RIAA case in the US and it can be found HERE.

Excerpts:
...First, the RIAA has not established that any infringement has actually taken place. The RIAA's claims of copyright infringement come after its investigator, MediaSentry, discovers music in a P2P user's shared folder. MediaSentry then takes screenshots, notes the IP address, and the litigation process is set into motion. That's the sole basis for the RIAA's complaints.

A number of defendants have pointed out the weakness of the RIAA's argument. First, the RIAA's complaints do not allege any actual acts of infringement, which the Copyright Act says must take place in order for a case for infringement to be made. The only downloading that the RIAA can actually prove occurred was done by its authorized agent, MediaSentry. Since the RIAA cannot demonstrate that someone other than MediaSentry downloaded the file—or that the defendant ever illegally downloaded any of the tracks in the shared folder—it therefore cannot show that infringement actually took place...

 

[shinken]

Excerpts:
...First, the RIAA has not established that any infringement has actually taken place. The RIAA's claims of copyright infringement come after its investigator, MediaSentry, discovers music in a P2P user's shared folder. MediaSentry then takes screenshots, notes the IP address, and the litigation process is set into motion. That's the sole basis for the RIAA's complaints.

A number of defendants have pointed out the weakness of the RIAA's argument. First, the RIAA's complaints do not allege any actual acts of infringement, which the Copyright Act says must take place in order for a case for infringement to be made. The only downloading that the RIAA can actually prove occurred was done by its authorized agent, MediaSentry. Since the RIAA cannot demonstrate that someone other than MediaSentry downloaded the file—or that the defendant ever illegally downloaded any of the tracks in the shared folder—it therefore cannot show that infringement actually took place...

Which is why, for the nth time, I reiterate, that Odex cannot be sure that the targets of their letters actually downloaded any anime which are licensed by them. Or in fact, if any copyrights infringements had taken place. And despite not being able to be sure, still seek 'compensation'. And after being questioned, they are changing their stance to claim for recovering costs of investigations instead.

 

[LazerLordz]

There have been rumours of some external assistance to ODEX..

 

[vince123123]

Yea, well Rajah & Tann.

There have been rumours of some external assistance to ODEX..

 

[mookie]

Yea, well Rajah & Tann.

solli me ulu...but what/who's Rajah & Tann?

 

[furrycake]

solli me ulu...but what/who's Rajah & Tann?

law firm ...

 

[lsisaxon]

If they are legitimate copies made in CHina, they would be legit here as well. Parallel Imports are legitimate.

But it's questionable because the law isn't tight there.

 

[vince123123]

Hmm, maybe so, if that is in the sense that you can't tell what's genuine or fake.

Well in any case I'm just saying that if its genuine, then bringing it to Singapore shouldn't cause too much of an issue.

But it's questionable because the law isn't tight there.