Condition of item for sales grossly overstated!

[chpeck]

Hi,

I am seeing increasing number of posters labeling their items as 10/10 or Mint when you can see the sign of use from miles away. I tried to report those threads but there is no facility for such.

Not long ago, I spent a couple of hours traveling and waiting to view a DSLR stated to be Mint but turn out my time was wasted seeing a well used machine. No harm done but effort and time wasted.

Here is another example: I don't think the Kiron lens is anywhere near 10/10 or even 8/10.

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=693950

The culture is so different now from many years ago when I first joined this clulb.

Peck

 

[Yoh]

Its a subjective issue, nobody adheres to the same kind of rating. What seems perfectly fine to others might not be so for another party and vice versa.

 

[chpeck]

This is the guideline by clubsnap.

The Personal Classifieds sections are meant for sales of PERSONAL, USED items only. Sales of multiple, similiar items are to be posted in the Mass Sales section with a subscription.

1. Use accurate titles to reflect your sale/thread - a title such as "For Sale" without reference to what is being sold may not gather as much response as "WTS: Collectors Edition Gold Plated Nikon FA Kit - S$1000".

2. Close the thread after sale/trade is concluded - this will update the status of the item. Member should also close the thread if they changed their mind about selling/buying.

3. Equipment Condition Ratings - please use the following Condition Ratings when advertising your WTB/WTS items:

Condition: Mint
Description: Like new. Not used since it left the shop. No signs of use.
Also known as: Mint

Condition: 10
Description: Very carefully used. Only very light user marks. Without close inspection, item would pass for mint.
Also known as: Mint(-), Near-Mint, A

Condition: 9
Description: A few light user marks. Used very little and carefully. May show some very mild wear, such as rub marks by lug straps, or bright marks on metal base plate.
Also known as: Excellent(++), A/B

Condition: 8
Description: Light to moderate user marks. Typical amateur use. May have some very slight brassing, or light scratches in metal. Obviously well-maintained and cared for.
Also known as: Excellent(+), B

Condition: 7
Description: Well used but not abused. May have minor dings or scratches. May have obvious brassing and scratches in common wear areas.
Also known as: Excellent, B/C

Condition: 6
Description: Very well used. May have moderate dings / scratches. Looks like it may have travelled half the region and could tell a story or two. Dented, scratched, brassed. yet refuses to stop operating.
Also known as: Excellent(-), Very Good, C

Condition: 5
Description: Very heavy use. May have heavy dings / scratches. Looks like it may have travelled the globe with it and could write a book or two. Heavily dented, heavily scratched, heavily brassed. Yet simply refuses to stop operating, and you've got no idea why.
Also known as: Good, D

Condition: 4 to 3
Description: Very poor condition. Suitable for re-build or spares.
Also known as: Bad, E

Condition: 2-1
Description: Very bad condition. For very extensive re-build or spares.
Also known as: Ugly, Very Bad, F

Please note that condition ratings are very subjective and no two people will totally agree on the condition rating of a used piece of equipment. However, please use the guidelines above to best describe what you think your equipment condition is.

4. Do not post non-photographic items - any such posts will be removed without prior notice or warning to poster. The following is a list of what can be advertised in Buy & Sell (list is not exhaustive and will be updated from time to time). Photography-related items are those items that are primarily designed to be used in the course of creating your images (whether digital or film), thus, by using the above definition the following items will qualify as photography-related:-

* Film/Digital Cameras (SLRs, Point & Shoots, Digicams, Video Cameras)
* Flashes
* Studio paraphernalia
* Tripods, tripod heads, ballheads
* Camera Lenses
* Lens attachments and filters
* Films
* Camera bags
* Batteries and battery chargers
* CF Cards/Readers
* Photo Printers (note word Photo)
* Digitising tablets
* Scanners (slide/film and specialised flatbeds)
* Darkroom equipment


Note: Due to the volume of posts in the Personal Classifieds sections, our Moderators may not be able to monitor all the threads, thus please send a PM to the Marketplace Moderators or the Admins or use the Report Post function for our further action if there are breaches in the guidelines.

 

[Yoh]

Please note that condition ratings are very subjective and no two people will totally agree on the condition rating of a used piece of equipment. However, please use the guidelines above to best describe what you think your equipment condition is.

This is a very important point in the whole guideline.

 

[dingaroo]

Unless there is a 3rd party to assess the condition of the item to sell, it is always up to the buyer to trust the words of the seller.

I'm sure there are other more honest-to-goodness sellers who will indicate the various flaws, especially the cosmetic ones, even no matter how superficial it is. And it is even better when they attach a picture.

It takes all kinds to make the world go round.

Cheers!

 

[ortega]

The Personal Classifieds sections are meant for sales of PERSONAL, USED items only. Sales of multiple, similiar items are to be posted in the Mass Sales section with a subscription.

this means that New items are not allowed


maybe should edit the description

Condition: Mint
Description: Like new. No signs of use.
Also known as: Mint

 

[sabee]

The Personal Classifieds sections are meant for sales of PERSONAL, USED items only. Sales of multiple, similiar items are to be posted in the Mass Sales section with a subscription.

this means that New items are not allowed


maybe should edit the description

Condition: Mint
Description: Like new. No signs of use.
Also known as: Mint

I see many senior forumers selling imported sets that are new in box :think:

 

[Muckafutha]

personally i would prefer to have indication of age of the item in addition to the condition rating.

 

[BeeHive]

personally i would prefer to have indication of age of the item in addition to the condition rating.

i agreed:thumbsup:

 

[Simon]

Why don't you post those links here so we can determine if they are violating the forums rules.

I see many senior forumers selling imported sets that are new in box :think:

 

[wdEvA]

Here is another example: I don't think the Kiron lens is anywhere near 10/10 or even 8/10.

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=693950

hmm, have u seen the item in person? or based on the pic which is only meant for illustration?

 

[diediealsomustdive]

Let's see... this item is given rating 8.5 by seller.

I say this is a condition 6.

Condition: 6
Description: Very well used. May have moderate dings / scratches. Looks like it may have travelled half the region and could tell a story or two. Dented, scratched, brassed. yet refuses to stop operating.
Also known as: Excellent(-), Very Good, C

This item is given rating 10 by seller.

I say this is 7.

Condition: 7
Description: Well used but not abused. May have minor dings or scratches. May have obvious brassing and scratches in common wear areas.
Also known as: Excellent, B/C

Stretch it a bit, maybe 8? But to me calling this 8 is a real stretch, cos the scratch on the barrel below NIKKOR is hardly light.

Condition: 8
Description: Light to moderate user marks. Typical amateur use. May have some very slight brassing, or light scratches in metal. Obviously well-maintained and cared for.
Also known as: Excellent(+), B

But at least this seller puts photograph to show the conditions of the item, at least it takes away some subjectivity.

I once met up a guy who said his 80-200 AFD 2 touch is condition 10, but I felt it would be rated 9. It would not at all pass as mint. And a week later, the same guy has another 80-200AFD selling for a friend, and the following week a third piece.... go figure.

Condition: 10
Description: Very carefully used. Only very light user marks. Without close inspection, item would pass for mint.
Also known as: Mint(-), Near-Mint, A

 

[leschua75]

Hi,

I am seeing increasing number of posters labeling their items as 10/10 or Mint when you can see the sign of use from miles away. I tried to report those threads but there is no facility for such.

Not long ago, I spent a couple of hours traveling and waiting to view a DSLR stated to be Mint but turn out my time was wasted seeing a well used machine. No harm done but effort and time wasted.

Here is another example: I don't think the Kiron lens is anywhere near 10/10 or even 8/10.

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=693950

The culture is so different now from many years ago when I first joined this clulb.

Peck

I've noticed that the prices of 2nd hand lens could cost more than a brand new or just $6 dollars cheaper.. Eg: a nikkor 35mm f1.8 selling for $320 when a brand new set can be brought easily for $320.. weird..

 

[Jed]

I agree in general that there is a great deal of optimism in seller item descriptions from what I have seen. Not everyone does it, but a fair number of people do.

I also find people tend to place a ridiculously high value on their second hand gear, and I have discussed this topic before on the forum, that for example despite significantly higher prices of new equipment in the UK, 2nd hand prices are frequently lower than in Singapore. When I needed a D80 to modify for IR, I bought one off eBay in the UK for fatigue to modify in Singapore, because people on the forum wanted higher prices for their D80s. This is even without taking into account the lower margin for the UK sellers due to eBay fees and Paypal fees.

Back more on topic, it is a difficult area to police because of the element of subjectivity, so you could comfortably argue for example that anything within +/- 1 on the scale, or possibly even +/- 2, could be within subjective tolerances for one user to the next. Even professional second hand dealers have different rating tolerances. At least in this situation you can gather feedback on the dealer and find out whether their ratings are conservative or optimistic, but if even they cannot agree to a "standard" rating system, it's hard to get an autonomous mass of sellers to agree.

Ultimately we as a forum can only put up a set of recommended guidelines which we have done, and after that it's ultimately up to buyers and sellers to be as honest as they can be. As with most sales situations, it's caveat emptor. You'd also hope that after being too optimistic with ratings, the sellers will also learn that they're wasting their own time, but there will always be some.

I dunno if maybe the admins will find some way to police the situation, but I personally wouldn't fancy the work of having to go through the multitude of classified ads that are placed every day.

FWIW, regarding your two sample images. Personally - and this is my personal opinion only - these are my thoughts (working on the text description of the number ratings, not on the "also known as" part):

First lens: I think 6 is a little harsh, I would personally put it somewhere between 6.5 and 7, although I have less quibble with a rating of 6 than a rating of 8.5. I guess a fair amount depends on your experience with beat up lenses and how beat up you've seen them. I wouldn't consider this lens an "excellent -" either, even though I think it's better than a 6, and I have no idea who decided "excellent -" = description for a rating of 6 ;p

Second lens: I think 7 is harsh, and I would disagree with that. I would comfortably rate that an 8 on the scale provided, from what I can see. I only see one obvious mark on the extension/focus part of the barrel, and I wouldn't say that is any worse than "light to moderate user marks" which is the description for 8. I don't feel that the lens is necessarily "well used", it has no "obvious brassing or scratches in common wear areas" and only has one ding that is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things - things which would make it a 7. I have disregarding the lens case.

 

[ahbian]

From the view of a buyer, I would take any rating by the seller with a pinch of salt until I see the item for myself.

From the view of a seller, perhaps to avoid accusation and last minute attempt of undercutting prices, I feel its might be worth while posting up pictures of the item for sale in the thread.

 

[night86mare]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a201/IllidanStorm/P1030681.jpg

actually this looks cosmetically pretty damn good for a lens without an auto setting.....?

you should see what the lenses i get from ebay uk as "cosmetically excellent", i think when you take the age into account, that is cosmetically very nice for me.

of course, i paid average $20-$30 for those lenses (24mm f/2.8, 28mm f/2.8, miranda/tokina brand) but just as a rough guide, maybe buyers ask too much as well?

 

[night86mare]

I've noticed that the prices of 2nd hand lens could cost more than a brand new or just $6 dollars cheaper.. Eg: a nikkor 35mm f1.8 selling for $320 when a brand new set can be brought easily for $320.. weird..

that's because:

a) sellers put up that price

b) buyers buy into it, because they will be sellers next

simple logic.

 

[diediealsomustdive]

First lens: I think 6 is a little harsh, I would personally put it somewhere between 6.5 and 7, although I have less quibble with a rating of 6 than a rating of 8.5. I guess a fair amount depends on your experience with beat up lenses and how beat up you've seen them. I wouldn't consider this lens an "excellent -" either, even though I think it's better than a 6, and I have no idea who decided "excellent -" = description for a rating of 6 ;p

Second lens: I think 7 is harsh, and I would disagree with that. I would comfortably rate that an 8 on the scale provided, from what I can see. I only see one obvious mark on the extension/focus part of the barrel, and I wouldn't say that is any worse than "light to moderate user marks" which is the description for 8. I don't feel that the lens is necessarily "well used", it has no "obvious brassing or scratches in common wear areas" and only has one ding that is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things - things which would make it a 7. I have disregarding the lens case.

I have no complains about your rating, after all, there is a bit of subjectivity in this rating "game", but the point is I gave 6, you gave 6.5-7, seller gave 8.5; and I gave 7, you gave 8, seller gave 10. Hey you and I were +-1 apart, but with the seller it is like -2 to -2.5.

Now that's what I call euphemism.

 

[ortega]

just don't buy from people who are not honest

 

[mcn]

TS

i understand your frustrate; that's why i give up buy goods in CS

they have all sorts of threads (in kopitiam) bashing and laughing at buyers like...
(a) threads on lowballers, (b) threads on the most rediculous buyers or somthing like that

guess it's a seller's world... sad but true, no goods, nothing to take (sell) in the first place

so many sellers post mint, 10... or this problem or that problem and then tell you it does not affect performance, this and that

esp. so many mint cases... i didn't know so many photographers are collectors... buy goods and not used since left shop... like that might as well sell in sotheby's

if only itrader somes back... yeah i know it's not perfect but better have a guiding light in darkness than nothing
or at least, like previously, interested buyers can post questions on the thread itself instead of private message
so that it's more tramsparent... it even reveals those lowballers!

Transparcy, please! Transparency, please! Transparency, please!