Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

[Pablo]

Dear stereobox,

According to your limited knowledge, you are correct. If I were not allowed to choose the kind of language, word, tone of attitude used in my posts, how would I have exercised my right to freedom of expression?

On your second point, you are absolutely wrong. The rights to freedom of expression lies only with the givers. The receivers of said expressions are passive in these instances. They have no right to interfer with the rights of the givers.

This is important, whether the receiver wants the opinions, critiques or criticisms or not, and let's use CS poster as a proxy for the receiver, it does not matter. By posting in CS, a public forum, public reaction should be expected.

I have no f**king idea what you are talking about ... " i'm just practising free speech, what's wrong with it?" Of course, I am responsible for what I say and do. Your point again?

I will be profoundly disappoited if other people do not react to what I say, to agree with everything I said (eventhough I know I am right and you are wrong). Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nomatter how misguided they may be, and most important of all, to express them.

"Are you able to handle it?" Well, I have 2 responses. Of course, it's freedom of expression. I am exercising my rights to express what is right, and you have the rights to express what you think is right. Actually, I am handling it well. Who are not handling it well at all are all my detractors, who believes freedom of expression is of course paramont as long as the expression is tolling the party line.

One more thing, your reacton is perfectly legitimate, as the freedom of expression will guaranty it, however misguided you may be.

Up untill recently I have been interested in your posts.

This last one though points to you having the view that it is your way or no way.

As I now "from your last post" don't think I will gain anything from what you have to post, I have decided to put you on my "ignore" list.

Have a nice life.

 

[Verywierd]

Free speech is not just a right, but a tool. It can help prevent oppression, prejudice and injustice. But like any tool it is the user who determines how it is used or misused. A hammer can be used to build useful and beautiful things. It can also be used to break bones and kill. Similarly free speech can educate and lift the spirit. It can also be used to bully and demean.

Everyone has the right to free speech. How each person uses that right is a window to that person's character and soul.

 

[Deadpoet]

Pablo,

I really don't care how you feel. You failed to comprehend. I drew this conclusion based on the 3 of my statements you highlighted red in your response. (Since you had put me on the ignore list, good for you, and therefore my response, is for everyone else but you.)

"The rights of freedom of expressions lies only with the giver."
How else can freedom of exression be otherwise. If one's freedom to express is subjected to how the receiver reacts, what freedom is that? One may choose to refrain from expressing one's opinion, because of the receiver's reaction, but NEVER subjected to the receiver's reaction.
Freedom is an absolute thing, you either have it all, or nothing.

I will be profoundly disappoited if other people do not react to what I say, to agree with everything I said (eventhough I know I am right and you are wrong).
I will answer the second part of this statement. If I knew that I am wrong and you are right about the statement I am going to make, then why would I even make such a statment. So, everything I said, I have to know that I am right. Right now, we are engage in this discussion becasue, I believe I am right and you are wrong, while you (stereobox) believe that I am wrong and he is right. So, what is the problem? I don't see any! We are engaging in a healthy discussion.

...your reaction is perfectly legitimate, as freedom of expression will guaranty it, however misguided you may be.
The problem here starts with Pablo highlighted my statement out of context. Let me put Pablo back on tract.
Let me re-phrase for Pablo's sake.

... my, yours, and everyone's reaction are perfectly legimitate, as the freedom of expression will guaranty them, however misguided I, you or they may be.

The rights to the freedom of expression is absolute. You even have the right to express, even if you are wrong, misguided, unfounded, or misinformed. You will make a fool of yourself, but you have the right to do so.

As Pablo said, one last point, the only point that I pressed hard, and took a my way or no way attitude, is the right to freedom of expression. Everything else, I will express my opinion, which to me is correct but to you, is wrong, and you will express your opinion, which to you is correct, but unfortunately to me is misguided, and we will attempt to convice each other, but in most cases, agree to disagree.

What I see the probem with Pablo here is, and it's a reflection of some people here in CS, is that dissenting opinions are NOT welcome and accepted.

 

[LazerLordz]

...
What I see the probem with Pablo here is, and it's a reflection of some people here in CS, is that dissenting opinions are NOT welcome and accepted.

I would agree with this.But most of the chappies who have their knickers in a twist over some chap coming in and offering a totally different opinion on their uploads, are kids.And you know how kids are, they are unable to see beyond the popular idolisation given by their like-minded fans and therefore see any other critique as a unfair criticism.

Maturity counts too.

 

[Ihsan Chua]

Free speech is not just a right, but a tool. It can help prevent oppression, prejudice and injustice. But like any tool it is the user who determines how it is used or misused. A hammer can be used to build useful and beautiful things. It can also be used to break bones and kill. Similarly free speech can educate and lift the spirit. It can also be used to bully and demean.

Everyone has the right to free speech. How each person uses that right is a window to that person's character and soul.

I agree with WEIRD on how a person uses the right. I have one question for DP.

Since your intent is to critique the person's work in a harsh manner so that the person can improve. If the person reacts to u in a negative manner and decided to give up photography, does it help u to achieve the objective in your mind? Similarly, if u decide to give criticisms in a constructive and less confrontational way, would that help u to achieve the same objective with more results?

If your objective is to critique the person's work without considering the consequences, doesn't that amt to arrogance?

If I had understand you correctly and I may have taken it out of context, you say "Freedom is absolute". Is freedom really absolute? I quoted one philosopher before , "Too much freedom leads to no freedom." One possible example is this, If everyone were to go and buy a gun and starts to rob everybody's stuff, the victims would suffer. Well the robbers have the freedom to do everything he or she wants but the result is that others will suffer. What I am trying to say is that comments shd be made in context as what many pp here are trying to tell u. If do not know the full context, then the criticisms shd be put in a more constructive manner.

I hope I am not becoming more philosophical. A lot of things in life are relative in nature. Good things need not necessarily be gd and vice versa. If anyone were to watch the movie, "The doctor", that is one such story. In that show, this doctor (William Hurt) is a top surgeon in Cancer. He is so insensitive to the needs of his patients. Unfortunately or fortunately, he contracted throat cancer. To us, he is suffering and is bad. However, he realised the pains of being a cancer patient and he began to feel for them. He was cured eventually and became a top surgeon with a heart. This became gd.

DP, please consider the consequences of your actions. You are strong and that made u outstanding. Others may not be as strong as you. We are just different. Power of Speech is a gift. It can be a boon or bane

 

[zhang3feng]

I agree with WEIRD on how a person uses the right. I have one question for DP.

(too many words need to reduce, pai seh...)

DP, please consider the consequences of your actions. You are strong and that made u outstanding. Others may not be as strong as you. We are just different. Power of Speech is a gift. It can be a boon or bane

WORDS OF WISDOM! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: some pple jus like to talk abt their rights but failed to understand others' needs:bsmilie:

 

[David]

Yeah, frank comments are good but when some critic gives blunt ones by using sharp words and sarcastic implication like "you don't piss the model but yourself", how does that help?

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=194269

 

[student]

The rights to the freedom of expression is absolute.

I for one, do not believe that anything made by man, or conjured up in the frail, imperfect and convoluted minds of miserable human beings can be absolute.

Still, I can go with the idea that there should be "freedom of expression". However, should this "freedom of expression" be expressed crudely? You mean that the same expression cannot be expressed in different ways? That is has to be crude?

There is a difference between betweeen frank/harsh/direct and crude/unrefined/uncouth.

What I see the probem with Pablo here is, and it's a reflection of some people here in CS, is that dissenting opinions are NOT welcome and accepted.

I think you need to seriously rethink again. Where was it that "dissenting opinions" are NOT welcome?

What is not welcome is NOT dissenting opinions, but crude and uncouth remarks.

 

[student]

I would agree with this.But most of the chappies who have their knickers in a twist over some chap coming in and offering a totally different opinion on their uploads, are kids.And you know how kids are, they are unable to see beyond the popular idolisation given by their like-minded fans and therefore see any other critique as a unfair criticism.

Maturity counts too.

I fully agree that maturity counts.

Absolutely. No question about that.

But pray, tell me. How would a truly truly mature (A lot of people are under the illusion that they are "matured") person give "advice" to another? Assuming the intention is to correct faults rather than making the other person small. Assuming the intention is to help than to show off. What would the considerations be?

"Freedom of expression" as the absolute criterion and consideration? Or tempered with love and care. Do you just yank out the cane and whack the daylights out of someone whom you think is wrong, or would you correct the mistakes taking into account the context whereby the mistakes were made?

What would the mature person do? Who really are the kids?

Those who scream "Mine! My rights!?"

Those who say that "if you do not take my criticisms given in a sh*tty manner, you are therefore kids"?

Or those who dish out "criticisms in a sh*tty manner in the first instance? I had seen a lot of kids playing with sh*t. Yes there are adults who play with sh*t. But these are all demented.

 

[alvintangz]

there is nothing wrong in giving your own honest opinions about others' works; whether it's good or bad.

but if you really want to give comments to them, please do not be too narrow minded because photography is a form of art afterall.it is very subjective.

and there isn't a need to be rude when you are giving criticisms in others' works.

 

[Ihsan Chua]

I like the way certain pp comment. One of them is Catchlights.

"beside you crop away half of the bride's face, you also crop away the guest face, so in this picture, it does not really work, at least for me. and I believe you frame it this way without see thru the viewfinder, so this is it. either you show them this picture or no picture.

As for skin tone, I agreed is very subjective, no right or wrong, maybe six months or one year later you will see it differently."

The way, he commented is very constructive. He explained how it did not work, etc, etc. Although the threadstarter was not very receptive. Catchlights later answered in which I feel was a very matured but unpleasant message.


"after I check you past postings, notice this is the usually way you reply to others comments.
May I suggest to you that state this in all your thread.

[For your viewing only, comment are not welcomed]

or you may lock the thread after you post,

so other people don't have to waste time to write comments about your pictures, and does not benefit you at all.


Best wishes to you and hope you enjoy post your pictures here, and may have a comment free thread from now on."

This is one person in my opinion which is able to critique a photo constructively. Not any hamtan without considering another person's feelings.

 

[Quiksilvers]

deadpoet ah deadpoet ... u no grow up one ah... nothing better to do meh? ,,, :dunno:
go write poem la... u so good in yr engrish ..

u always like that wait get scolded by mod again then u no place to hide face :dunno: again then change subject again ah ... :nono:
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=170771&page=2

go take more photos la..

deadpoet ah deadpoet .... :nono:

 

[Quiksilvers]

Pablo,

I really don't care how you feel. You failed to comprehend. I drew this conclusion based on the 3 of my statements you highlighted red in your response. (Since you had put me on the ignore list, good for you, and therefore my response, is for everyone else but you.)

"The rights of freedom of expressions lies only with the giver."
How else can freedom of exression be otherwise. If one's freedom to express is subjected to how the receiver reacts, what freedom is that? One may choose to refrain from expressing one's opinion, because of the receiver's reaction, but NEVER subjected to the receiver's reaction.
Freedom is an absolute thing, you either have it all, or nothing.

I will be profoundly disappoited if other people do not react to what I say, to agree with everything I said (eventhough I know I am right and you are wrong).
I will answer the second part of this statement. If I knew that I am wrong and you are right about the statement I am going to make, then why would I even make such a statment. So, everything I said, I have to know that I am right. Right now, we are engage in this discussion becasue, I believe I am right and you are wrong, while you (stereobox) believe that I am wrong and he is right. So, what is the problem? I don't see any! We are engaging in a healthy discussion.

...your reaction is perfectly legitimate, as freedom of expression will guaranty it, however misguided you may be.
The problem here starts with Pablo highlighted my statement out of context. Let me put Pablo back on tract.
Let me re-phrase for Pablo's sake.

... my, yours, and everyone's reaction are perfectly legimitate, as the freedom of expression will guaranty them, however misguided I, you or they may be.

The rights to the freedom of expression is absolute. You even have the right to express, even if you are wrong, misguided, unfounded, or misinformed. You will make a fool of yourself, but you have the right to do so.

As Pablo said, one last point, the only point that I pressed hard, and took a my way or no way attitude, is the right to freedom of expression. Everything else, I will express my opinion, which to me is correct but to you, is wrong, and you will express your opinion, which to you is correct, but unfortunately to me is misguided, and we will attempt to convice each other, but in most cases, agree to disagree.

What I see the probem with Pablo here is, and it's a reflection of some people here in CS, is that dissenting opinions are NOT welcome and accepted.

obviously talkin to him then say it for everyone else instead of him. talk so much .. rubbish ..

"shoot first, TALK later." :nono:

 

[Pablo]

Have you all heard of the nursery rhyme "Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall"

How about a poem that contains "Bah Bah black sheep have you any wool?"

Do you know that here, in Australia, they are considering changing the words in these poems to become "POLITICALLY CORRECT"

Hey, using the words, "Humpty Dumpty" infers fat/overweight.

"Little black sheep" is discriminatory of colour.

I am shure that one day there will be no seperate male and female toilets just one (too discriminatory otherwise) !

I am shure that in this world there are people that spend their waking hours looking for things to find fault with and call what they find "Politically Incorrect" so that it HAS TO be changed by law.

Why did I write this ?

Because I feel that a few people simply decide not to go the way that others do; rather, they have to disrupt the whole system and in doing so, preach that "this is the right way".

Here in Club Snap we meet to offer our work, we enjoy sharing what we do and look forward to either praise or constructive comments that will assist us in going further.

This I would believe to be the whole idea of Club Snap.

But, as with Humpty Dumpty, some one or two have decided that this is not how it should be done and have decided to change the way it works.

I can't recite how they have worded things so that they have caused "Bah Bah black sheep" to be "Rainbow sheep".

But I can recite how it seem to come up in CS... "" If you put what I said in context"
or You used what I said out of context.

Wow, that is an easy way out isn't it ? .... you wrote it and you expected everyone to put it into the context you now decide it to be in.


Please..... lets get back to simply saying

Hey, that is great. I love the make-up. but the lighting is a bit ???
or
Man, what are you saying here ? I don't get it ... please explain.

 

[Quiksilvers]

A question to all fellow CS members, when you post pictures, not in the Critique Corner forum, do you want comments and criticisms?

I think if you do not want any comments and criticisms, especially criticisms, you should say so, “criticism not welcome”, then the critics would probably shut up. However, if you do not specifically stated criticism not welcome, we should be able to comment and criticize truthfully.

I have noticed a very disturbing trend, and it’s getting worse. Many viewers, give praises to the most undeserved. The picture sucks and it’s still nice to them. There is this overly polite politically correct tendency to sugar coat criticisms. I found these kind of criticisms most ineffective, inefficient, and insulting at times. If the picture is really that bad, say it. If the hair is messy, the pose is unnatural, the facial expression is that horrible, the set does not make sense, say it truthfully so that the poster can learn and improve.

On the other hand, many posters do not want viewers’ true opinions. As long as the comments are positive, they are great comments. Whenever the viewers criticize, all sort of excuses come out. Messy hair inevitably gets the wind is strong excuse, goofy/horrible expressions will be rebutted by “It’s natural …”, and messed up sets become whimsical/it’s intended to be that way etc etc etc.
This phenomenon of “good comments only” applies not only to newbies, but to established professional photographers too.

With the posters and viewers playing hypocrites, how can we learn from our mistakes, how can we improve and build on our accomplishments.

yup i strongly agree. i also seen a guy in a thread worse lo.. he is the photographer, not the viewer (worse right? being too good to himself, i think) , he says his picture suck bec of this bec of that.. bec sun too strong .. not suitable .. just anyhow shoot one .. etc (but still post). y make up excuses ? strange hor .. http://forums.clubsnap.org/showpost.php?p=2136399&postcount=22

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=194072&page=2

That guy also only want good comments, cuz the bad and truthful ones, he like never really bother to response, maybe he should put “criticism not welcome”, like u suggested.

Good Suggestion!

Cheers DeapPoet ! :thumbsup: :kiss: :nono: You never fail to bring up truths and strongs views

 

[Ihsan Chua]

yup i strongly agree. i also seen a guy in a thread worse lo.. he is the photographer, not the viewer (worse right? being too good to himself, i think) , he says his picture suck bec of this bec of that.. bec sun too strong .. not suitable .. just anyhow shoot one .. etc (but still post). y make up excuses ? strange hor .. http://forums.clubsnap.org/showpost.php?p=2136399&postcount=22

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=194072&page=2

That guy also only want good comments, cuz the bad and truthful ones, he like never really bother to response, maybe he should put “criticism not welcome”, like u suggested.

Good Suggestion!

Cheers DeapPoet ! :thumbsup: :kiss: :nono: You never fail to bring up truths and strongs views

Message To Dead Poet,
After reading thru the above link, I dun think Quiksilver has anything agst u. In fact, he may be playing your game to let u feel how it is like to be on the other receiving end so that u can improve as a person holistically. In many ways, he is using solely your style of comments on u. Ironically, u accused him of being your personal troll. Frankly speaking, the troll is in yourself. In your remarks in this forum, I find that u are like a person who scored your own goal. If u change your style of comments, I am quite sure that Quiksilver will stop his harrassment. Am I right to say that Quiksilver?

 

[CaeSiuM]

If you are shooting for yourself, comments are nice to have but don't take them too seriously. Be your own worst critic and if you can convinced yourself that you like what you see, leave it as that.

OTOH, if you are shooting commercially or for an assignment, you have to take in everyone's views and find a compromise.

 

[espn]

All the efforts are worth it for the other 20%.

The other 20% are professionals that don't need our advice.

 

[Sion]

The other 20% are professionals that don't need our advice.

This is the best advice for the other 20% professionals. :bsmilie:

 

[Quiksilvers]

Message To Dead Poet,
After reading thru the above link, I dun think Quiksilver has anything agst u. In fact, he may be playing your game to let u feel how it is like to be on the other receiving end so that u can improve as a person holistically. In many ways, he is using solely your style of comments on u. Ironically, u accused him of being your personal troll. Frankly speaking, the troll is in yourself. In your remarks in this forum, I find that u are like a person who scored your own goal. If u change your style of comments, I am quite sure that Quiksilver will stop his harrassment. Am I right to say that Quiksilver?

It very nice of you Ihsan, I guess u are right except that I am not really interested in improving Diepoet. but i do like to poke him back (esp after i see his work for the first time, :thumbsup: ) haha. Plus, I don use his style of comments, cuz my engrish not as powder as him. But i think my "snapshots" will be much better, even at 12pm