Canon EOS D60 -> Do I need it or not and other questions..
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If i recall, D30 users say that they can make great A3 sized prints from a D30. If thats the case, why would beginners <need> a D60 as opposed to a significantly discounted D30?
Anyway, I propose that discussions about Should I buy the latest and greatest equipment should be banished from GENERAL PHOTOGRAPHY CHAT and put in some more specific equipment related forum which I shall try my best to ignore.
When the S2 and D100 are released, I'm sure that we'll be having an IDENTICAL discussion, so save your posts and just edit replace D60 with D100.
Anyway, I propose that discussions about Should I buy the latest and greatest equipment should be banished from GENERAL PHOTOGRAPHY CHAT and put in some more specific equipment related forum which I shall try my best to ignore.
When the S2 and D100 are released, I'm sure that we'll be having an IDENTICAL discussion, so save your posts and just edit replace D60 with D100.
wah....ask a simple question, leave the site for the night and return to see all this bombardment.......
Anyway, to me it is not whether it should be D30 or D60, I just tried out the 1D and fell in love with it. Especially I love the part where the zoom is mechanical and I believe that you can use manual focus also via mechanical means.
That is what I missed most when converting from SLRs to DC, and that is what I hope to get back in the next DSLR........
Anyway, to me it is not whether it should be D30 or D60, I just tried out the 1D and fell in love with it. Especially I love the part where the zoom is mechanical and I believe that you can use manual focus also via mechanical means.
That is what I missed most when converting from SLRs to DC, and that is what I hope to get back in the next DSLR........
Hi,
Reason is simple. They just want the latest and greatest. Whether it's really needed is another thing.
S2/D100 is slightly different. There's nothing to upgrade FROM, except from a handful of S1 owners. And the S2 body is at least a significant step up from the S1's F60 body. As for D100, if there's an influx of heavily discounted D1Xes.....
Regards
CK
Reason is simple. They just want the latest and greatest. Whether it's really needed is another thing.
S2/D100 is slightly different. There's nothing to upgrade FROM, except from a handful of S1 owners. And the S2 body is at least a significant step up from the S1's F60 body. As for D100, if there's an influx of heavily discounted D1Xes.....
Regards
CK
Originally posted by ckiang
Hi,
Reason is simple. They just want the latest and greatest. Whether it's really needed is another thing.
S2/D100 is slightly different. There's nothing to upgrade FROM, except from a handful of S1 owners. And the S2 body is at least a significant step up from the S1's F60 body. As for D100, if there's an influx of heavily discounted D1Xes.....
Regards
CK
D1 D1!!! Kaoz, imagine if all the D1 users decide to buy the D100..
NOT!
Originally posted by mylau
Careful here, my friend, your statement here is going to offend or hurt many people. Photography can be a passion, it could be the only relaxation method for some people after a hard day's work.
You intent may not be malicious but I think you need to tone down in comments like this.
It's the same as audiophiles who spend $80k on a pair of speakers actually. I doubt David is wrong or anything.
It all comes back to the same principle about fools and money.. And that's what marketing deparments are for!!
Hi
i'm detecting a dangerous undercurrent of discrimination against pple who buy the latest and the best equipment.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting and having the latest and the best. If finances allow, and one is prosperous enough, wat's wrong with a little self indulgence once in a while? Don't we all go / dream of luxurious holiday trips, nice comfortable homes, cars to get us around etc? Given a choice, would you want to live in a condo, or a 1 room apartment? If you were asked to receive as a gift, would you want a small piano or a grand piano?
If you can afford it, would you want to hold your wedding dinner at the Ritz Carlton, or at your neighbourhood coffee shop?
There's nothing wrong with luxuries provided:
1) it doesn't become the centre of your life
2) you obtain them through honest means
Another way of putting it would be: you love money, cos money can buy a lots of good stuff and make your life more comforable, but you don't LIVE for money - you don't compromise your principles, moral integrity for the sake of money.
Simply lamblasting a beginner for wanting a D60 doesn't seem entirely fair to me. A beginner need not start learning photography from a manual camera. A beginner need not give up some of the small luxuries in order to learn photography. A beginnner who also happens to be a successful bank manager in CitiBank (this is a fictional character) who wants to take up photography seriously certainly doesn't need to lower his expectations for a GOOD camera he can use.
If one is serious about learning, one can start with anything.
Now just to put things into perspective, i will definitely lamblast someone with the latest and the best but doesn't want to get the basics right, thinks he knows everything, and sneers at others with lesser equipment. In fact, this has happened in real life for me with someone with a super expensive digital SLR. (no not anyone from this forum, thankfully).
When that guy, who claims more than 10 yrs of experience including medium format photography with hassy gear, tells you that he needs a longer lens than 400mm so that "he doesn't have to walk that far" (we are not talking about wildlife shooting here), u know something is wrong. When he asks you how come, despite VR technology, his pictures are blur when shooting at shutter speeds less than 1/60 indoors with his 80-400 VR lens indoors, you thank God u're more knowleageable that that.
When he insists his 80-400 VR is better than his 80-200 AFS (which he bought and never use cos it's only 200mm) you know it's time to pump some lead into the head
The clincher is when looking at his shots, you realise all he does is put his camera on continous mode and shoots many many frames to catch the right moment. They look like shots i can take with my Chinon compact film camera.
Of course when he sneers at the plastic body of the D30 / D60, u know it is WAR! :rbounce:
i'm detecting a dangerous undercurrent of discrimination against pple who buy the latest and the best equipment.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting and having the latest and the best. If finances allow, and one is prosperous enough, wat's wrong with a little self indulgence once in a while? Don't we all go / dream of luxurious holiday trips, nice comfortable homes, cars to get us around etc? Given a choice, would you want to live in a condo, or a 1 room apartment? If you were asked to receive as a gift, would you want a small piano or a grand piano?
If you can afford it, would you want to hold your wedding dinner at the Ritz Carlton, or at your neighbourhood coffee shop?
There's nothing wrong with luxuries provided:
1) it doesn't become the centre of your life
2) you obtain them through honest means
Another way of putting it would be: you love money, cos money can buy a lots of good stuff and make your life more comforable, but you don't LIVE for money - you don't compromise your principles, moral integrity for the sake of money.
Simply lamblasting a beginner for wanting a D60 doesn't seem entirely fair to me. A beginner need not start learning photography from a manual camera. A beginner need not give up some of the small luxuries in order to learn photography. A beginnner who also happens to be a successful bank manager in CitiBank (this is a fictional character) who wants to take up photography seriously certainly doesn't need to lower his expectations for a GOOD camera he can use.
If one is serious about learning, one can start with anything.
Now just to put things into perspective, i will definitely lamblast someone with the latest and the best but doesn't want to get the basics right, thinks he knows everything, and sneers at others with lesser equipment. In fact, this has happened in real life for me with someone with a super expensive digital SLR. (no not anyone from this forum, thankfully).
When that guy, who claims more than 10 yrs of experience including medium format photography with hassy gear, tells you that he needs a longer lens than 400mm so that "he doesn't have to walk that far" (we are not talking about wildlife shooting here), u know something is wrong. When he asks you how come, despite VR technology, his pictures are blur when shooting at shutter speeds less than 1/60 indoors with his 80-400 VR lens indoors, you thank God u're more knowleageable that that.
When he insists his 80-400 VR is better than his 80-200 AFS (which he bought and never use cos it's only 200mm) you know it's time to pump some lead into the head
The clincher is when looking at his shots, you realise all he does is put his camera on continous mode and shoots many many frames to catch the right moment. They look like shots i can take with my Chinon compact film camera.
Of course when he sneers at the plastic body of the D30 / D60, u know it is WAR! :rbounce:
Bluestrike
New Member
Hhmmm...
somewhere between your two legs?
Actually, it's better for a beginner to start off with a lower end camera. Why?
1. Cheaper to begin with. If he decides photography isn't for him, the loss isn't that great.
2. He doesn't get overwhelmed by the gongs and trumpets.
3. He doesn't start to depend on all the gongs and trumpets.
4. He learn things the "hard" way.
Just like when you start learning the piano, you don't buy a Steinway grand which costs hundreds of thousands.
There is seriously nothing wrong with the lower end D30's that the upgraders are selling. Perfectly fine for someone who's looking for a DSLR for cheap.
It would be penny wise, pound foolish to spend $3.8K on the D60 and a superzoom vs buying the used D30 at $2.6K or so and $1k+ on say, the EF 28-70 f2.8L. Both comes up to around the same cost, but with the latter, you get vastly superior images.
Of course, if you want and can afford to go the D60 + L lens option, then go ahead.
Regards
CK
Red Dawn, yes I meant what I say. A high end film body with a high quality L lens has much better image quality than an EOS D30 with cheap superzooms. How come you want to contend with me about such a well-known fact?
(Well, good quality glasses aside, I'm not even talking about making huge enlargements. Try doing 8"x12" with your D30 and compare it with that from a film camera using a reasonable lens. Hey, hey, no intention to flame here. It depends on what kind of photographic work you're going into.)
Anyway, my main post is not to say film is better than digital or vice versa. It's up to your shooting style to decide which one to get. There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. I'm just following up from Jed's post, wondering why there's a need to rush for a D60. There are other options to consider too.
I know you own the D30, and have been justifying in the forum why you should should stick with it. Ok...if it makes you feel happy, I'd say here that D30 is sufficient for a good majority of people. If I owned a D30, I might not want to switch to a D60 too.
If I have offended many, I apologize. Just wanted to raise up the real issue about switching camera bodies 'cos I read too often about people owning the D30 and scracthing their hair off about trying to save save save just to get the D60. It's like what's the deal here? If you have money then go buy it. Why like you know, so cham like that... as if the D60 is a BIG improvement over the D30.
(Well, good quality glasses aside, I'm not even talking about making huge enlargements. Try doing 8"x12" with your D30 and compare it with that from a film camera using a reasonable lens. Hey, hey, no intention to flame here. It depends on what kind of photographic work you're going into.)
Anyway, my main post is not to say film is better than digital or vice versa. It's up to your shooting style to decide which one to get. There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. I'm just following up from Jed's post, wondering why there's a need to rush for a D60. There are other options to consider too.
I know you own the D30, and have been justifying in the forum why you should should stick with it. Ok...if it makes you feel happy, I'd say here that D30 is sufficient for a good majority of people. If I owned a D30, I might not want to switch to a D60 too.
If I have offended many, I apologize. Just wanted to raise up the real issue about switching camera bodies 'cos I read too often about people owning the D30 and scracthing their hair off about trying to save save save just to get the D60. It's like what's the deal here? If you have money then go buy it. Why like you know, so cham like that... as if the D60 is a BIG improvement over the D30.
hey i think u misunderstood me. i am not contending with you on that.
I just want to confirm that u're not implying a high end film body has much better image quality than a D30, which in all honesty was wat i thought you were trying to imply. My most sincere apologies for doubting you. :embrass:
yes, the film vs digital debate is not the main topic in this thread.......
hmm.....i think u lost me here. i can't follow your line of thinking anymore ;p
My reasons for sticking to the D30 are purely my own personal ones, and may not apply to everybody. I am certainly NOT trying to convince D30 owners NOT to upgrade. I don't think i have ever tried to discourage anyone from upgrading to the D60, have i?
huh? i think u're being a wee bit too sensitive.....
yes we know that's wat u're trying to say..dun think u have offended anyone by saying that!
Red Dawn, I'm glad the confusion is more or less clarified. Oh no...I'd never say the D30 can't compare to a film based SLR! Cos that's certainly not true. But like what Ckiang said, it's penny wise pound foolish to get an expensive body like the D60 and then be left stranded with cheapo superzooms. IMHO, I'd go rather for a film-based SLR and high quality lens! Again, this is my personal opinion. The mistake some amateurs go thru is they get too carried away with SLR bodies (film or digital) and then suddenly realize, Oh rats, how about the lenses?
I have to apologize in case pple misunderstand me, isn't it? Mylau said my earlier words were too strong and could offend others so that's why I need to justifiy my statements.
Well what can I say...At the end of the day, the images are still as good as the photographer behind the camera!
I have to apologize in case pple misunderstand me, isn't it? Mylau said my earlier words were too strong and could offend others so that's why I need to justifiy my statements.
Well what can I say...At the end of the day, the images are still as good as the photographer behind the camera!
Originally posted by ziploc
We need upgraders! They buy new stuffs and sell away their old stuffs, and poor people like myself can pick up their stuffs cheap cheap.
yes...me too...waiting for more pple to upgrade their D30 to D60...no way can afford a brand new one, but still can afford a 2nd hand + a good lens may be
StreetShooter
Senior Member
Let me put it this way. If I had known in October last year that there was going to be a D60, I might or might not have bought the D30 then (most probably would have, anyway, to take pictures of the year-end school concert). If there had not been a concert, I might have waited.... to buy a second hand D30!
I think I could not be happier with the D30 and simply feel no urge to upgrade. My only regret is taking fewer pictures with the CP990, because many of my best shots came from that camera, with all its limitations (well, actually the light metering is MUCH better than the D30).
In fact I consider the D60's main disadvantage to be the 6MP sensor, because that means my little 256MB CF card can store that many fewer pictures (and my 60GB dedicated HD will fill up that much faster). I don't make huge wall murals of my children's pictures. They're mostly printed in 4R size and put into albums. As for hobbies, most of my pictures are reduced to 600x400 pixels before posting. Why would I need 6MP for THAT? Better dynamic range? In case anyone hasn't noticed, many of my pictures have the low and high ends chopped off for greater contrast.
I suppose the only good thing about the D60 is that if I ever drop my D30, it'll be cheaper to replace with a secondhand one! In fact I might get a secondhand D30 as a backup, in case they get hard to come by a bit later....
I think I could not be happier with the D30 and simply feel no urge to upgrade. My only regret is taking fewer pictures with the CP990, because many of my best shots came from that camera, with all its limitations (well, actually the light metering is MUCH better than the D30).
In fact I consider the D60's main disadvantage to be the 6MP sensor, because that means my little 256MB CF card can store that many fewer pictures (and my 60GB dedicated HD will fill up that much faster). I don't make huge wall murals of my children's pictures. They're mostly printed in 4R size and put into albums. As for hobbies, most of my pictures are reduced to 600x400 pixels before posting. Why would I need 6MP for THAT? Better dynamic range? In case anyone hasn't noticed, many of my pictures have the low and high ends chopped off for greater contrast.
I suppose the only good thing about the D60 is that if I ever drop my D30, it'll be cheaper to replace with a secondhand one! In fact I might get a secondhand D30 as a backup, in case they get hard to come by a bit later....
I think no one here has any objection to someone who can afford the best to buy the best. That person won't be disappointed.
I don't want to refer to actual examples so I'll speak in general
There seems to be nitpicking on the D30 tiny flaws in order to 'justify' the purchase of the D60. Why? It's just annoying. I doubt your citibank manager example will do this. He'll just ask, what is the best, and buy it.
I wouldn't lambast a beginner just for wanting a D60, but I might lambast him if he asks questions like 'D60 box is nicer than the D30 box... should I get it for the nicer box' (which in effect, is what a posts that makes no reference to the buyer's intended usage of the camera is). Hmm but actually, I prefer not to make personal comments... i hope people take this post as a general comment rather than a personal attack.
_________________________________
Originally posted by Red Dawn
Hi
Simply lamblasting a beginner for wanting a D60 doesn't seem entirely fair to me. A beginner need not start learning photography from a manual camera. A beginner need not give up some of the small luxuries in order to learn photography. A beginnner who also happens to be a successful bank manager in CitiBank (this is a fictional character) who wants to take up photography seriously certainly doesn't need to lower his expectations for a GOOD camera he can use.
I don't want to refer to actual examples so I'll speak in general
There seems to be nitpicking on the D30 tiny flaws in order to 'justify' the purchase of the D60. Why? It's just annoying. I doubt your citibank manager example will do this. He'll just ask, what is the best, and buy it.
I wouldn't lambast a beginner just for wanting a D60, but I might lambast him if he asks questions like 'D60 box is nicer than the D30 box... should I get it for the nicer box' (which in effect, is what a posts that makes no reference to the buyer's intended usage of the camera is). Hmm but actually, I prefer not to make personal comments... i hope people take this post as a general comment rather than a personal attack.
_________________________________
Originally posted by Red Dawn
Hi
Simply lamblasting a beginner for wanting a D60 doesn't seem entirely fair to me. A beginner need not start learning photography from a manual camera. A beginner need not give up some of the small luxuries in order to learn photography. A beginnner who also happens to be a successful bank manager in CitiBank (this is a fictional character) who wants to take up photography seriously certainly doesn't need to lower his expectations for a GOOD camera he can use.
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