Awol For 30 Years And Only Got $5000 Fine?
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skinnylatte
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While I don't think I will ever understand what it means to have to serve the country in this way (since my birth cert says "F"), I can understand see why some people see AWOL as a viable option. If I were male, I think I might have chosen that, too.
The fact is the military, and the practice of conscription, is an inherently inflexible and rigid one. One which has the ability and willingness to kill one's dreams, should they be an obstruction. I have a friend who was offered a recording contract by a major American music label, because they saw his talent as a singer, and wanted to groom him further. They were even willing to pay a bond to get him out for a few years. But the SAF refused to let him go, because he was already 18, and a few years past the 'allowed' period of time in which he could have gone on a bond. Between a promising career (he's really very good at music, and 'idol' material too), and leaving this country not knowing if he could ever come back, he chose to stay. Grudgingly. Pushing paper to show his duty and committment to this country, this country which effectively killed his dreams. Some of you will say if he's good enough, the recording contract can wait. But opportunities like that only come around so often in your life.
So often the response I've read on the forums, in those letters to the papers, etc: "make him do more!" They seem to have arisen from the thought that (1) this person skipped town and duty for 30 years (2) I had to suffer in the army for x no. of years (3) if I had to suffer, why not make him suffer too? More worrying is the idea that anybody who rejects national service is necessarily less patriotic, or not fit to be a Singapore citizen.
I know someone else who, after having grown up overseas for the better part of his childhood, found no meaning in serving the army of a country he was detached from. He left. He can never come back again. Call him a quitter, whatever you like. But compared to an American who's lived abroad since his childhood, or the Hong Konger sent to England or Canada to study since he was 7, my friend can never come back again. The other two can, even if they feel the same way about their original countries as he does. How fair is that?
I know that if I had a son, and if he wanted to skip NS for a genuine reason (other than being lazy and incompetent), I would do my best to help him with that. Because nobody should have their dreams unfairly taken away from them, especially when it is something they deserved. In Melvyn's case, leaving England for 2 years at the start of his career would have been disastrous. In my friend's case, choosing his family and Singapore over his career was a painful decision, and I don't blame him for feeling anger and betrayal.
Man I'm so glad I'm not a guy.
To quote a poet: "If you care too much about Singapore, first it'll break your spirit, and finally it will break your heart."
The fact is the military, and the practice of conscription, is an inherently inflexible and rigid one. One which has the ability and willingness to kill one's dreams, should they be an obstruction. I have a friend who was offered a recording contract by a major American music label, because they saw his talent as a singer, and wanted to groom him further. They were even willing to pay a bond to get him out for a few years. But the SAF refused to let him go, because he was already 18, and a few years past the 'allowed' period of time in which he could have gone on a bond. Between a promising career (he's really very good at music, and 'idol' material too), and leaving this country not knowing if he could ever come back, he chose to stay. Grudgingly. Pushing paper to show his duty and committment to this country, this country which effectively killed his dreams. Some of you will say if he's good enough, the recording contract can wait. But opportunities like that only come around so often in your life.
So often the response I've read on the forums, in those letters to the papers, etc: "make him do more!" They seem to have arisen from the thought that (1) this person skipped town and duty for 30 years (2) I had to suffer in the army for x no. of years (3) if I had to suffer, why not make him suffer too? More worrying is the idea that anybody who rejects national service is necessarily less patriotic, or not fit to be a Singapore citizen.
I know someone else who, after having grown up overseas for the better part of his childhood, found no meaning in serving the army of a country he was detached from. He left. He can never come back again. Call him a quitter, whatever you like. But compared to an American who's lived abroad since his childhood, or the Hong Konger sent to England or Canada to study since he was 7, my friend can never come back again. The other two can, even if they feel the same way about their original countries as he does. How fair is that?
I know that if I had a son, and if he wanted to skip NS for a genuine reason (other than being lazy and incompetent), I would do my best to help him with that. Because nobody should have their dreams unfairly taken away from them, especially when it is something they deserved. In Melvyn's case, leaving England for 2 years at the start of his career would have been disastrous. In my friend's case, choosing his family and Singapore over his career was a painful decision, and I don't blame him for feeling anger and betrayal.
Man I'm so glad I'm not a guy.
To quote a poet: "If you care too much about Singapore, first it'll break your spirit, and finally it will break your heart."
skinnylatte,
U have ur point there, but, consider the situation in Singapore.
We have only 4 million in population. And we are not located, what we would say, in the best part of the World. If u read history, u will find that from independence to present, Singapore has her up & down with her neighbours. Without a strong SAF, do u think we can still enjoy good economy & growth? And not bullied by other countries who is not doing as well?
Remember " Cut! Cut! Cut!" shouted in Paliment of another country a few years ago?
>So, a strong SAF is important, agreed?
Now, in order to have a strong SAF, we can't rely on regulars due to our population size.
Every male S'poreans have to do their parts.
>So, conscription is the only option, agreed?
So, to be fair; Everyone, regardless of race, backgrounds etc are to serve the army & do his part.
>So far, agreed?
Now to ur point abt persuading one's career & once in a Lifetime opportunity.
Tell me, which male S'poreans will tell u that he did not lost his youth & his studies/career future? Yes, NS sucks, but to protect our families, this is the sacrifice we have to take. It's unfair, nobody is saying it is. U take some, u give some.
What so big deal, only one person, u would ask; Believe me, sooner, others will follow. Thinking that $5k is worth every single penny.
If he can tell the families of those who serve their country & died during training & those in DB jsut becos of AWOL for 1 day, on the face. "I'm sorry that during these 28yr, ur sons have to protect my parents for me while I'm persuading my so-called 'Dreams' ",........
U have ur point there, but, consider the situation in Singapore.
We have only 4 million in population. And we are not located, what we would say, in the best part of the World. If u read history, u will find that from independence to present, Singapore has her up & down with her neighbours. Without a strong SAF, do u think we can still enjoy good economy & growth? And not bullied by other countries who is not doing as well?
Remember " Cut! Cut! Cut!" shouted in Paliment of another country a few years ago?
>So, a strong SAF is important, agreed?
Now, in order to have a strong SAF, we can't rely on regulars due to our population size.
Every male S'poreans have to do their parts.
>So, conscription is the only option, agreed?
So, to be fair; Everyone, regardless of race, backgrounds etc are to serve the army & do his part.
>So far, agreed?
Now to ur point abt persuading one's career & once in a Lifetime opportunity.
Tell me, which male S'poreans will tell u that he did not lost his youth & his studies/career future? Yes, NS sucks, but to protect our families, this is the sacrifice we have to take. It's unfair, nobody is saying it is. U take some, u give some.
What so big deal, only one person, u would ask; Believe me, sooner, others will follow. Thinking that $5k is worth every single penny.
If he can tell the families of those who serve their country & died during training & those in DB jsut becos of AWOL for 1 day, on the face. "I'm sorry that during these 28yr, ur sons have to protect my parents for me while I'm persuading my so-called 'Dreams' ",........
skinnylatte said:
skinnylatte said:
How fair is it that Singapore is a small island with a small population in a not-so-friendly neighbourhood? How fair is it that you were born in a stable country with lots to eat and drink and shelter over your head, whilst your contemporary in Africa is suffering from famine and disease? What sort of dreams do your "sisters" in the slums of Brazil have and how fair is it that they will have little chance of fulfilling even a fraction of their potential? You want to talk about fairness?
Every single male here who has served NS has been held back from his education/career/personal life to one extent or another. The sacrifices are not small, you yourself said that you are glad that you don't have to serve NS, that you will gladly help your son skip NS if the situation "warranted" it. Lets put the shoe on the other foot. How would you feel if some other mother, on account of "musical talent", helped her son skip town, and YOUR son had to take over his job as well as do his own? What if because of this added stress, he got tired and careless and injured himself severely? How would you feel? I have 2 boys, your talk of deliberately helping sons dodge the draft riles me. The sight of that pianist (what's his name?) smiling from the front pages is galling to the extreme. I have seen poor, uneducated NSFs being sent to detention barracks for months for being missing for just short periods, and this is a real travesty of justice.
You want to be fair? Then support the NS system and the men and women who keep it running.
LimPeh08 said:5k still cannot buy Canon 5D leh!I think he should do NS in lieu teaching piano free at our Arts Academy.
Agree. He should serve some form of sentencing either in community service or even as some clerk or storeman or military service for the full 2year duration.
He had his dreams fulfilled, had his career successful and has lived a good life. If he wants to come back, he must at least serve what he has owed for so long, if not more.
The dream of a person wishing to go overseas to develop his talents should not be construed as being more noble than the school dropout who wants to setup his own hawker business.
If so many others have to put their dreams on hold for 2yrs, all should bear the same treatment, if not bear the cost of skipping it.
Anyone who feels that the $5k fine is ok should take a look at how AWOLees serve their time in SAFDB.
No system is perfect, but at least one can strive to make it fair and even handed for all.
skinnylatte
New Member
"Fairness", was not my main point, though you made it seem like it constituted the bulk of my concern.
I understand there won't be a large number of voices agreeing with what I have said: despite being born and bred here, I somehow ended up possessing extremely individualistic and libertarian viewpoints on many matters. One which is not in line with the idea of "the greatest good for the greatest number". As such, I have my own reservations about an inherently hierarchical and bureaucratic system which is the military, in the way that "sure it's a good idea it exists" but "i would hate to be in there myself".
I never said it was right for the pianist to have been 'let off', especially when I know one of my closest friends might be sent straight to another Changi should he set foot at Changi airport, and I don't agree with having allowed this pianist to have 'gotten off so lightly'. But I don't believe that this was because he was 'rich' or accomplished or whatever; in the same way, for example, if the law says someone who steals is likely to be sentenced to a fine of $10 000 or 2 years' jail or both, in the sentencing of people who have stolen, some are likely to have been fined up to $10 000, others simply jailed, others slapped with both. But it is still all within the law and up to the discretion of the judge of the specific case. One person 'getting away' with a $6000 fine, while somebody else had to do time, is not a comparison in this case; and so it shouldn't in the case of AWOL-ing, either. It's just an emotional issue for most people because of their own personal experience in having to serve NS, while only a number of people will ever have the same experience with theft.
I guess I was reacting at first to the number of responses which had been "it must have happened because Melvyn was rich and the system is skewed towards the rich", and then I got carried away by my own anecdotes of people who have done the same, because fundamentally at the legal level, there was nothing wrong with the judging/sentencing.
And I'm sorry to have riled you on the point about the hypothetical son (since erm, for me to have a son in the first place, it would mean I would have to be away from Singapore and I'm not allowed to get married here, if you know what I mean). Let's just say this system isn't conducive to people who can't help but still believe in individual liberty.
I understand there won't be a large number of voices agreeing with what I have said: despite being born and bred here, I somehow ended up possessing extremely individualistic and libertarian viewpoints on many matters. One which is not in line with the idea of "the greatest good for the greatest number". As such, I have my own reservations about an inherently hierarchical and bureaucratic system which is the military, in the way that "sure it's a good idea it exists" but "i would hate to be in there myself".
I never said it was right for the pianist to have been 'let off', especially when I know one of my closest friends might be sent straight to another Changi should he set foot at Changi airport, and I don't agree with having allowed this pianist to have 'gotten off so lightly'. But I don't believe that this was because he was 'rich' or accomplished or whatever; in the same way, for example, if the law says someone who steals is likely to be sentenced to a fine of $10 000 or 2 years' jail or both, in the sentencing of people who have stolen, some are likely to have been fined up to $10 000, others simply jailed, others slapped with both. But it is still all within the law and up to the discretion of the judge of the specific case. One person 'getting away' with a $6000 fine, while somebody else had to do time, is not a comparison in this case; and so it shouldn't in the case of AWOL-ing, either. It's just an emotional issue for most people because of their own personal experience in having to serve NS, while only a number of people will ever have the same experience with theft.
I guess I was reacting at first to the number of responses which had been "it must have happened because Melvyn was rich and the system is skewed towards the rich", and then I got carried away by my own anecdotes of people who have done the same, because fundamentally at the legal level, there was nothing wrong with the judging/sentencing.
And I'm sorry to have riled you on the point about the hypothetical son (since erm, for me to have a son in the first place, it would mean I would have to be away from Singapore and I'm not allowed to get married here, if you know what I mean). Let's just say this system isn't conducive to people who can't help but still believe in individual liberty.
V
vince123123
Guest
Dont' want to quote so many passages, but from the last 10 posts, here's somethign to cosnider.
Isn't a worthy balance simply to shorten the years from 2 yeras to like few months or 6 months or wahtever's appropriate. Those who have been through NS know that out of the 2 yeras, a lot of it is spent waiting, idling, sitting around, doing nothing, etc.
Even now in reservist, out of 14 days, maybe only 5 days you do something.
Isn't a worthy balance simply to shorten the years from 2 yeras to like few months or 6 months or wahtever's appropriate. Those who have been through NS know that out of the 2 yeras, a lot of it is spent waiting, idling, sitting around, doing nothing, etc.
Even now in reservist, out of 14 days, maybe only 5 days you do something.
soma said:But what about the 30 years missing, if you could do that i think they will accept the $5 per day..:bsmilie:
Move on..... this topic is damn sianz liao.
yep...time to move on!
to all the guys who have served NS with blood, sweat and tears, i salute u!
:thumbsup:
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