Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

[night86mare]

These are natural laws in business. So I don't quite understand what you actually want to do and the purpose of doing that. What good would it bring to the local photography community other than encouraging ppl to continue shooting lousy pics? because now a lousy photog and a good photog will command the same rate anyway

I doubt you get his point.

Lousy photog and good photog command same rate, who you think people go to? The lousy one right!

In any case, if you say natural and all that, sure, I am one to frown on protectionism of any sort. But this is different. Eikin is talking about EXPLOITATION. I hope you understand what he means by that word.

 

[Godzilla Invades]

blame it on cheap DSLRs, now EVERYBODY can afford one. :sticktong

Cheap DSLR does not mean great photos. Cheap skills yes..........plenty in the market.

 

[StreetShooter]

But if I'm a newbie, and the company wants to engage me, and I screw up the job, how can it be said that I got conned by the company?

If I do a great job for the company as an amateur, my reward is the satisfatcion I get out of it. Any money that comes by would be incidental.

If I am a professional, I would not end up getting conned in the first place. If I do get conned, then I am not a true professional, and this would be considered "tuition fees", and I will learn not to get conned in future.

So where is the exploitation?

 

[night86mare]

Gentleman, pls calm down. Being angry is not helpful in any discussion.

1. what makes u think that ppl are making use of CS as a freebie portal? Ppl looking for free service may not get any response at all; ppl offering free service may not get hired at all. Do you have any data to support your argument?

2. who is there to decide what is a fair price? It is a very subjective matter. A low price to u maybe a high price to others; vice versa. Do you expect a photograhper with a good name to charge the same as a new photographer without any track record?

Let's discuss this subject objectively, and based on reliable data, and most importantly, provide implementable & practical solutions.

1) :bsmilie: :bsmilie: I've been in the agent-type industry before. Sometimes clients don't care, and sometimes the service-providers doesn't give a damn. The problem is IGNORANCE. And it is present in every walk of life. I'm all for data and all that, but unfortunately like House says, EVERYBODY LIES. As long as there is one isolated incident, it's one incident too many, as far as I'm concerned.

2) Market rate. Without interference from coconuts who just roll in and anyhow offer services. I give you example. Take for example tuition agency. Market rate generally agreed upon ACROSS THE BOARD ranges from about 35 SGD to 50 SGD per hour for teachers proper. I've heard that there are JC students who ask for 50 SGD right away, with only A level qualifications. Ridiculous, won't you think? Same thing. The idea: Spoil Market. Once again, this is linked to ignorance.

Solutions are definitely not easy. I guess the only thing that will help, as in most cases, is EDUCATION. Of the client, of the people who wish to provide services, prof or not.

 

[eikin]

Streetshooter, there are enough members, pros and hobbyists alike, who can tell you how this site has become a convenient place to source for freebies. i'm totally not interested in market workings. frankly, if CS wants to allow people to make business deals on this website, make it professional, instead of having a system that's neither here nor there, and then start policing when dealing parties found themselves a bad deal on this site and decides to use this site as the boxing ring to settle their smaller than fairytale dispute.

So where is the exploitation?

this website has been exploited, and is still being exploited, if you haven't notice

 

[night86mare]

But if I'm a newbie, and the company wants to engage me, and I screw up the job, how can it be said that I got conned by the company?

If I do a great job for the company as an amateur, my reward is the satisfatcion I get out of it. Any money that comes by would be incidental.

If I am a professional, I would not end up getting conned in the first place. If I do get conned, then I am not a true professional, and this would be considered "tuition fees", and I will learn not to get conned in future.

So where is the exploitation?

=( What if I'm the newbie whom the company said, go ahead, we know you new, you screw up the job never mind.

Then they smack me with big lawsuit because I screw up the job, oh you never read the agreement sucks to be you.

Then how? I no money to keep computer, no money to pay for Internet, cannot complain on Clubsnap! :bsmilie:

Just kidding. OT aside, I think the idea is also partly to be CONSIDERATE. If a company can't be bothered to look for proper photographer, then I think also no point for newbie to go and work for them. Is a waste of time and money, since the job will be undoubtedly crappy with that sort of organisation anyways.

And don't you have pride for Clubsnap? Would you love it to be associated with the name of FREE/CHEAP PHOTOGRAPHERS! COME AND GET SOME, THEY ARE DUMB!

 

[StreetShooter]

OK take this a little further.

I am a great fan of freeware. I download lots of stuff from download.com, which is a place where people put freeware up for download.

Am I exploiting all those poor software writers who put up free software for download?

If I am a company who can easily afford Microsoft Office, but choose instead to look for OpenOffice and use that instead, am I exploiting all those nice folk who wrote OpenOffice?

Yes, CS is indeed a great place to look for photographers willing to shoot for free, or a small fee. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? *scratch head*

 

[satay16]

OK take this a little further.

I am a great fan of freeware. I download lots of stuff from download.com, which is a place where people put freeware up for download.

Am I exploiting all those poor software writers who put up free software for download?

If I am a company who can easily afford Microsoft Office, but choose instead to look for OpenOffice and use that instead, am I exploiting all those nice folk who wrote OpenOffice?

Yes, CS is indeed a great place to look for photographers willing to shoot for free, or a small fee. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? *scratch head*

nonono. problem is these CSers aren't willing parties. software developers make it freeware because they are willing to. these CSers got conned.

 

[eikin]

OK take this a little further.

I am a great fan of freeware. I download lots of stuff from download.com, which is a place where people put freeware up for download.

Am I exploiting all those poor software writers who put up free software for download?

If I am a company who can easily afford Microsoft Office, but choose instead to look for OpenOffice and use that instead, am I exploiting all those nice folk who wrote OpenOffice?

Yes, CS is indeed a great place to look for photographers willing to shoot for free, or a small fee. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? *scratch head*

i don't care how much piracy activities you've participated yourself. why do you like people to exploit this website?

if you want freedom on this website, might as well do away with any kind of moderation, get it?

freedom to put up shady threads
freedom to insult others
freedom to flame
freedom to quarrel
freedom to leech pictures and post them here
.
.
.

why bother moderating?

 

[satay16]

btw, maybe you can look at some thread eikin showed. it were those that made me get the idea.

 

[StreetShooter]

Streetshooter, there are enough members, pros and hobbyists alike, who can tell you how this site has become a convenient place to source for freebies. i'm totally not interested in market workings. frankly, if CS wants to allow people to make business deals on this website, make it professional, instead of having a system that's neither here nor there, and then start policing when dealing parties found themselves a bad deal on this site and decides to use this site as the boxing ring to settle their smaller than fairytale dispute.
this website has been exploited, and is still being exploited, if you haven't notice

I'm not aware of any case where free services have been requested, following which the photographer got sued or lambasted on CS. Perhaps you can point me to a couple of cases for my perusal.

I do remember, however, reading some posts about professionals charging full professional fees who have behaved very unprofessionally.

And, really, I don't see the Admin nor the Mods getting involved in any policing. More likely the (extremely voluble) court of public opinion judges the case.

 

[StreetShooter]

i don't care how much piracy activities you've participated yourself. why do you like people to exploit this website?

if you want freedom on this website, might as well do away with any kind of moderation, get it?

freedom to put up shady threads
freedom to insult others
freedom to flame
freedom to quarrel
freedom to leech pictures and post them here

why bother moderating?

Now now, let's not use the ad hominen argument (in English, that means let's not get personal). Freeware is VERY DIFFERENT from piracy. So please don't accuse me of piracy. I'll let that pass.

I suppose I'm too stupid to understand how and why requesting for free services from willing providers constitutes exploitation. Shall we leave it at that?

 

[night86mare]

OK take this a little further.

I am a great fan of freeware. I download lots of stuff from download.com, which is a place where people put freeware up for download.

Am I exploiting all those poor software writers who put up free software for download?

If I am a company who can easily afford Microsoft Office, but choose instead to look for OpenOffice and use that instead, am I exploiting all those nice folk who wrote OpenOffice?

Yes, CS is indeed a great place to look for photographers willing to shoot for free, or a small fee. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? *scratch head*

There's a difference.

Eikin's situation is got mother cat in heat, then dog wear cat skin and come and xian the mother cat. Come out offspring blardy ugly.

Your situation is mother cat in heat, then handsum tomcat come along and xian the mother cat. Come out the offspring sibei chio.

 

[night86mare]

I'm not aware of any case where free services have been requested, following which the photographer got sued or lambasted on CS. Perhaps you can point me to a couple of cases for my perusal.

But he already posted a lot of links!!!!!!!! :bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie:

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=265446
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthre...ecome+a+place+for+sourcing+cheap+photographer
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?p=2922162#post2922162
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=247151

Nah, I very free, I help.,

 

[eikin]

I'm not aware of any case where free services have been requested, following which the photographer got sued or lambasted on CS. Perhaps you can point me to a couple of cases for my perusal.

I do remember, however, reading some posts about professionals charging full professional fees who have behaved very unprofessionally.

And, really, I don't see the Admin nor the Mods getting involved in any policing. More likely the (extremely voluble) court of public opinion judges the case.

this is the most recent

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=265446

if it's really none of the business of CS, why bother closing threads with all the quarrels? well, they can all make a mess in the quarrels, that's their freedom, isn't it?

and this case is a classic

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=260438

obviously this person don't know what he's getting into.

but anyway, stopping people from offering free service is not my concern. i'm simply saying, if CS wants to let people conduct such exchanges, a proper platform where terms and conditions are laid out clearly should be set instead of the current any primary school student also can come in and advertise situation.

 

[night86mare]

and this case is a classic

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=260438

obviously this person don't know what he's getting into.[/url]

Wa, I didn't read that thread.

I realise I could actually pose as a professional and xian him into carrying tripod for me for free when I go and shoot IR. Free some more leh. :bsmilie:

 

[eikin]

if CS is really letting a free hand in the service section, we should not even stop anyone from going OT in that section. that is, afterall, the freedom of the members to make noise there. if anyone is caught trying to pull a fast one, let the members have a free hand at crucifying the poster.

 

[eikin]

Now now, let's not use the ad hominen argument (in English, that means let's not get personal). Freeware is VERY DIFFERENT from piracy. So please don't accuse me of piracy. I'll let that pass.

I suppose I'm too stupid to understand how and why requesting for free services from willing providers constitutes exploitation. Shall we leave it at that?

i'm just pointing out the major flaw in the current system that allows for things to happen (and did happen)

it's never an issue of the rights and wrongs of free services.

 

[Wisp]

Now now, let's not use the ad hominen argument (in English, that means let's not get personal). Freeware is VERY DIFFERENT from piracy. So please don't accuse me of piracy. I'll let that pass.

I suppose I'm too stupid to understand how and why requesting for free services from willing providers constitutes exploitation. Shall we leave it at that?

You can't afford to be too stupid..you're the moderator! What's with this 'I didn't hear anything ' attitude?

It's not the fact about free services or however you put it, its called the entitlement and knowledge of rights. Each person, no matter a hobbyist or advanced amateur , have rights even when it comes to work where commercial dividends are being made. We are talking about companies who are earning from these events, which by the way in most countries its against the law. These companies would not be able to practice such methods in where I am, even on the public forums. Our union worker rights makes sure of that.

Most people who engaged in this are new and AREN'T even aware of their rights. If they want to engage in an event, what eikin is proposing is a rules and guidelines and most importantly to LET the service provider know their rights as according to law.

According to your logic: if people are coming on here asking for any models and molests them through this website..the moderators aren't going to do anything even if such things happens and CS gets its name blacken? By the way I am stating a true life example that happened here in CS, but I shall not reveal names.

 

[shinken]

OK take this a little further.

I am a great fan of freeware. I download lots of stuff from download.com, which is a place where people put freeware up for download.

Am I exploiting all those poor software writers who put up free software for download?

If I am a company who can easily afford Microsoft Office, but choose instead to look for OpenOffice and use that instead, am I exploiting all those nice folk who wrote OpenOffice?

Yes, CS is indeed a great place to look for photographers willing to shoot for free, or a small fee. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT? *scratch head*

Terrible analogy. Very off. Don't take it personally.