Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

[1911]

as per thread title.



i'm more concerned about CS becoming the place to source for free/cheap photography services. anyway from posts in other forums and members' sentiments, it is the place to look for free/cheap services.

let me illustrate how easily the current system can be exploited.

Company A looks for low costing services.
An employee from Company A comes into CS, register a nick 'Mr1' and looks for cheap/free services.
Staff1's thread get publicised on CS, attracting lots of unsuspecting members.
Some CS members see the thread and decide to voice against the thread.
Staff1's aim has been fulfilled and stop posting in CS no matter how much flames have been fired.
When the need arise again, the employee comes into CS, register a new nick 'Mr2' and looks for cheap/free services.
The employee goes on to tell all his friends and colleagues about how convenient it is to make use of CS to look for freebies.

my concern is not how Company A conduct their business, my concern is how people who are like that employee time and again exploit this website to get free/cheap services.

we need specific posting guidelines with respect to looking for photography services in this website so that we can 'officially' get rid of the loophole.

together with that, we need those with the industry experience to share so that newcomers have access to knowledge about their rights, and the traps.

Why Should CS and participating members care?

simple, this forum is about photography; with majority of the members in Singapore, this forum is very much about photography in Singapore. we have people with the professional knowledge about industry practices, why should we allow exploitation of this website to continue? the only possible reason is that we are all too selfish to bother about things not right around us, if that is the case might as well not have the services section in here, at least we don't see the problems happening.

1. The first principle of any business is to maximize the profit, and minimize the cost;
2. By hiring a cheaper photographer, the business in fact takes a bigger risk of failure => high risk, high return.

These are natural laws in business. So I don't quite understand what you actually want to do and the purpose of doing that. What good would it bring to the local photography community other than encouraging ppl to continue shooting lousy pics? because now a lousy photog and a good photog will command the same rate anyway

 

[eikin]

1. The first principle of any business is to maximize the profit, and minimize the cost;
2. By hiring a cheaper photographer, the business in fact takes a bigger risk of failure => high risk, high return.

These are natural laws in business. So I don't quite understand what you actually want to do and the purpose of doing that. What good would it bring to the local photography community other than encouraging ppl to continue shooting lousy pics? because now a lousy photog and a good photog will command the same rate anyway

do you not know how to read? i have made it clear, how businesses are conducted outside is none of my concern. ClubSnap should never become a convenient platform for the blatant exploitation of photography services. What they do outside ClubSnap is none of my concern, what members here do outside ClubSnap is also none of my concern. Both parties should however not make use of this website as a freebie portal. period.

btw, if you want to know, here is a classic example http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=265446 and there are tons others, you can do your own search.

 

[eikin]

Professionals (Dr, Lawyers, etc) are able to charge premium prices because of the relative scarcity of these people providing the service. When supply is low price is high. How do they keep the supply low? Barriers to entry.

Photography does not have any man-made barriers to entry. Previously, the film development cost is high and it takes longer to master the techniques. These 2 factors form a kind of natural barriers to entry. It would have taken a real passion and patience to master photography. With the coming of the digital age, film development cost is zero, learning curve is steeper - instant feedback. Hence, there is a sudden spike in the number of people willing to pick up this hobby. Instant gratification.

When barriers of entry are removed, the pool of supply increases. Plus the fact that this is Spore... a lot of new photographers would want to try to earn some money out of this hobby. Like all profitable business in Spore, everyone wants to jump in (look at the bubble tea sudden boom and bust). Of course, the demand side is willing to sacrifice some quality for pictures that are "good enough" rather then "damn good" beacause of the low prices.

Just some thots of why you have the situation today...;p

no, i'm not interested in economic theories and debates. i'm asking for users coming in looking for photography services to treat this forum with due respect, and asking for concrete guidelines to ban those who try to pull a fast one.

 

[eikin]

satay and ykia make some good points

i agree ykia made some good points.

satay? he's totally off the frequency.

one has to ask what is the difference from a business or person trying to find the cheapest labour possible? it is a real situation as satay pointed out...and why are people getting upset? i think almost all of us try to get the best bargain possible...correct? i think maybe to have good dialogue or debate all parties must be willing to understand all sides and realize a situation for what it is and not what they idealistically want it to be. i think what a few of us are trying to say is that alongside with signing this thread, we have to understand why it is and not be blind to it.

let me get this straight. whether a professional photographer is crying out there because a freebie got his job is none of my concern.
it's this website we should be concerned about as participating members. outside of this forum, unless one is from the authority for the photography industry, no one can help. so, yes, we need to let this forum's participants be aware of where their rights start and ends.

again, not knocking anyone or any opinion, just broadening views. and as stated earlier, i dun want people being exploited too. so maybe the thing we have to do is point out who are the ones that exploit so CSers can make better decisions about taking peanut jobs. at the end of the day, we cannot stop anyone from coming here asking for a job to be done with cheap or no pay. but what we can do, is inform other CSers, make them more knowledgeable to know what might happen long and short term if they take peanut jobs.

keep smiling people

naming a previous exploiter is ineffective, as mentioned in the initial example, one can re-register again and again. yes we need to help members, especially newcomers, to be more aware, but we also need a clear stance in this forum about this issue. the loophole needs to be closed.

 

[1911]

do you not know how to read? i have made it clear, how businesses are conducted outside is none of my concern. ClubSnap should never become a convenient platform for the blatant exploitation of photography services. What they do outside ClubSnap is none of my concern, what members here do outside ClubSnap is also none of my concern. Both parties should however not make use of this website as a freebie portal. period.

btw, if you want to know, here is a classic example http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=265446 and there are tons others, you can do your own search.

Gentleman, pls calm down. Being angry is not helpful in any discussion.

1. what makes u think that ppl are making use of CS as a freebie portal? Ppl looking for free service may not get any response at all; ppl offering free service may not get hired at all. Do you have any data to support your argument?

2. who is there to decide what is a fair price? It is a very subjective matter. A low price to u maybe a high price to others; vice versa. Do you expect a photograhper with a good name to charge the same as a new photographer without any track record?

Let's discuss this subject objectively, and based on reliable data, and most importantly, provide implementable & practical solutions.

 

[eikin]

Gentleman, pls calm down. Being angry is not helpful in any discussion.

1. what makes u think that ppl are making use of CS as a freebie portal? Ppl looking for free service may not get any response at all; ppl offering free service may not get hired at all. Do you have any data to support your argument?

2. who is there to decide what is a fair price? It is a very subjective matter. A low price to u maybe a high price to others; vice versa. Do you expect a photograhper with a good name to charge the same as a new photographer without any track record?

Let's discuss this subject objectively, and based on reliable data, and most importantly, provide implementable & practical solutions.

let me say one more time. economic theories, newspaper issues, charging rates whatsoever is none of my concern.

solution is to close the loophole that allows potential exploiters to hide their intention in shady oneliner threads, and making it compulsory for all those making request for service to put the terms out clearly for all to see. when everything is on the table, there's no need to guess, suspect, and make endless quarrels.

if you need a rough picture of the situation, this thread is from some 3 years back

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthre...ecome+a+place+for+sourcing+cheap+photographer

it is still relevant today. go around and ask CS members whether they think it's convenient to look for free services here, and you'll get a very clear picture.

and for the period since i registered on CS, i've seen a couple of spectacular quarrels and in the face exploitation occurring. not forgetting new photographers getting into trouble with clients over shady terms agreed over requests made in forum.

 

[eikin]

btw, if anyone is interested to start yet another thread to debate on issues of market rates, competition in the industry, ethics whatsoever, i think it'll be really exciting, since it's going to attract thousands of replies. but it'll probably just end up in a big mess of quarrels and get locked. which is why those are not the issues i'm concerned here.

it's only this forum and how it is being used and can be used that i'm concerned about.

key words: set a clear anti-exploitation stance, educate the members, deter exploiters.

that is all.

 

[satay16]

hey eikin, yar, i finally understood what you meant. going to sign the anti-exploitation thread.:thumbsup:

was wondering, you think we have a lawyer here in CS that can make sort of like a standard templete contract and put it in CS(voluntary work perhaps:sweatsm: )? maybe something CSers can insert the right numbers and print it out for the company to sign? i was thinking since it is so hard to restrict them from entering(it's the nature of internet), we can have this templete contract for the companies to sign. at least if CSers get exploited, they still have this paper to give them a legal chip.

dunno nuts about law, so dunno if it is feasible.

but while typing this, i feel abit bad, cos it sort of hurts the professional photographic industry even more. as people would then be even more daring to go into this market.

 

[eikin]

hey eikin, yar, i finally understood what you meant. going to sign the anti-exploitation thread.:thumbsup:

was wondering, you think we have a lawyer here in CS that can make sort of like a standard templete contract and put it in CS(voluntary work perhaps:sweatsm: )? maybe something CSers can insert the right numbers and print it out for the company to sign? i was thinking since it is so hard to restrict them from entering(it's the nature of internet), we can have this templete contract for the companies to sign. at least if CSers get exploited, they still have this paper to give them a legal chip.

dunno nuts about law, so dunno if it is feasible.

but while typing this, i feel abit bad, cos it sort of hurts the professional photographic industry even more. as people would then be even more daring to go into this market.

i'm not a professional, so i don't have the direct answers.

however, if even sms carries legal responsibilities, i believe a service request thread with terms clearly stated out will carry even more weight. there should be no need to rope in lawyers or legal experts to make a simple posting regulation to make all service request threads clear to all parties.

 

[Paul_Yeo]

Maybe can re-structure the Service Offerred / Wanted section as follow

1) Company/Person looking for photog need to register and pay a deposit of $XXX. After the completion of the shoot, the $XXX will be paid to the photog as part of his professional services together with the balance payment after end product delivery.

This is to filter out cheapskate people from posting casually for free services.
The amount can be further categorise into , as below. As we cannot expect anyone from putting the same amount of deposit.

ROM / Wedding deposit $300 / $500
Company deposit $600
Magazine deposit $800
Model shoot depositi $500

(just a arbitary figures as i didnt know the rates)

This is to solve free photog issue.

2) A newly registered person cannot PM anyone. This is to prevent someone from skipping the deposit and PM the photog directly.

3) A newly registered person cannot receive PM too so that he cannot post in Kopitiam and solicit photog and receive PM from photogs.

4) Each Service required will need to fill up details such as Company Name, Reg No., Tel, Email, Contact Person. Info will be available to SuperUser / Mod / Admin in case of dispute.

5) Assign more SuperUsers to Service Offered section and monitor the section closely and mercilessly delete / move the thread if they sense any smell of exploitation. Upon clarificiation, then move the thread back.


Still haven't thot of ways to solve cheap photog issue ... but at least this can stop the free photog issue.

 

[fotoudavid]

The only way to solve it will be totally ban those cheapo to post here in Clubsnap and look for free/cheap photographers.

 

[fotoudavid]

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?p=2922162#post2922162

another classic examples.

 

[eikin]

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?p=2922162#post2922162

another classic examples.

the same poster did something like this just not so long ago

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=247151

 

[eikin]

Maybe can re-structure the Service Offerred / Wanted section as follow

1) Company/Person looking for photog need to register and pay a deposit of $XXX. After the completion of the shoot, the $XXX will be paid to the photog as part of his professional services together with the balance payment after end product delivery.

This is to filter out cheapskate people from posting casually for free services.
The amount can be further categorise into , as below. As we cannot expect anyone from putting the same amount of deposit.

ROM / Wedding deposit $300 / $500
Company deposit $600
Magazine deposit $800
Model shoot depositi $500

(just a arbitary figures as i didnt know the rates)

This is to solve free photog issue.

no, i'm not concerned with moderating of charges in the industry. i'm asking for a system that can deter, if not ban, people who try to exploit, those who exploit this forum and exploit unsuspecting newcomers.

2) A newly registered person cannot PM anyone. This is to prevent someone from skipping the deposit and PM the photog directly.

3) A newly registered person cannot receive PM too so that he cannot post in Kopitiam and solicit photog and receive PM from photogs.

i think restricting those newly registered from posting new threads inside the services section is a good consideration.

4) Each Service required will need to fill up details such as Company Name, Reg No., Tel, Email, Contact Person. Info will be available to SuperUser / Mod / Admin in case of dispute.

5) Assign more SuperUsers to Service Offered section and monitor the section closely and mercilessly delete / move the thread if they sense any smell of exploitation. Upon clarificiation, then move the thread back.

Still haven't thot of ways to solve cheap photog issue ... but at least this can stop the free photog issue.

i agree with #4, the registered company name or person's name as per NRIC will deter casual posters who like to hide behind the computer.

and yes i think we need help from the community to make things run. but with a clear system in place, the job is not that difficult, as demonstrated by the model shoot/workshop subforum.

 

[zhangyb]

Certain forums I come across require people to accumulate certain "points" before they are allowed access to certain portions of the forum/features. These points are given when the users post messages on the forum. Such an addon could be installed into the board.

Before the person accumulates a required amount of points, he cannot post requests for services. Meaning the services section also gotta modify to be like Buy and Sell. His ability to post request for services will be disabled. This will prevent exploiters from coming in with clones to post exploitive posts and it will still allow those, who at his own free will, after understanding his rights, to still take up which ever kind of services (free or not) that have been offered.

It will ensure that people contribute and is an extremely effective way of ensuring that people who get admitted into the special sections don't play punk or do something against the rules of the forums, which in this case, could be modified to include exploitation.

Lastly, to enforce, posting in the services section could be entirely moderated. We lose the flexibility to instantly post requests/replies. But we gain the ability to filter them more accurately. I don't think that the number of new threads started in the services section in a day will be too overwhelming to moderate, but this will depends on statistics that we could gather to consider its feasibility.

 

[fotoudavid]

Certain forums I come across require people to accumulate certain "points" before they are allowed access to certain portions of the forum/features. These points are given when the users post messages on the forum. Such an addon could be installed into the board.

Before the person accumulates a required amount of points, he cannot post requests for services. Meaning the services section also gotta modify to be like Buy and Sell. His ability to post request for services will be disabled. This will prevent exploiters from coming in with clones to post exploitive posts and it will still allow those, who at his own free will, after understanding his rights, to still take up which ever kind of services (free or not) that have been offered.

It will ensure that people contribute and is an extremely effective way of ensuring that people who get admitted into the special sections don't play punk or do something against the rules of the forums, which in this case, could be modified to include exploitation.

Lastly, to enforce, posting in the services section could be entirely moderated. We lose the flexibility to instantly post requests/replies. But we gain the ability to filter them more accurately. I don't think that the number of new threads started in the services section in a day will be too overwhelming to moderate, but this will depends on statistics that we could gather to consider its feasibility.

Very good, at least can do a filter.

 

[satay16]

btw, just curious how come admins haven't posted anything?

 

[eikin]

btw, just curious how come admins haven't posted anything?

the admin is working on refining the system.

please keep the thread for discussion/proposal of ideas and educating those unfamiliar with provision of photography services via CS.

 

[StreetShooter]

I'm honestly scratching my head wondering what the fuss is about.

Clubsnap is not a place for professional photographers only. There are newbies, hobbyists, professional wannabe's and professionals. I don't see why the rights of professionals should be higher on the agenda than any of the other categories of photographers.

If someone wants to request the services of a newbie, hobbyist or wannabe, I don't see what is wrong with that. Surely they know the risk they are taking in terms of a botched job. I really don't see it as exploitation at all. I see it as a win-win situation. The photographer gets to try out an assignment, and the service requester gets his photographer for free or for a small fee.

Yes, I have done one TFCD for someone who had just obtained a post-graduate degree a few years ago. He put out a request on Clubsnap, I responded, and we arranged to have a shoot, together with his family. He was pleased with my work, and I was pleased with the chance to try out an "assignment". I don't think there was any exploitation going on at all.

If someone getting married or a commercial entity wants to make sure the job gets done right the first time, they will jolly well hire a professional and pay for it. It's caveat emptor, even with a well-paid professional. That's why professionals buy insurance and have a clause in the contract to cover themselves in the event of something unexpected happening.

Even in the example of doctors and lawyers - if you're really sick, you really don't want to see a fly-by-night doctor operating out of a wooden hut in the jungle. If you need a good lawyer, you won't want someone who offers free legal advice on an internet forum (and we have many of those here as well). But if you just have a simple flu, you can easily self-medicate with medication from the pharmacy. That's not exploiting the poor pharmacist, is it? And if you want to write a simple will, you can make one for ten bucks over the internet. That's not exploiting the website offering the service, is it?

Maybe I'm a little thick, but I really don't get this "exploitation" bit. If I were to find another name for it, I would call it "protectionism". But that would be politically incorrect, I guess.

 

[satay16]

I'm honestly scratching my head wondering what the fuss is about.

Clubsnap is not a place for professional photographers only. There are newbies, hobbyists, professional wannabe's and professionals. I don't see why the rights of professionals should be higher on the agenda than any of the other categories of photographers.

If someone wants to request the services of a newbie, hobbyist or wannabe, I don't see what is wrong with that. Surely they know the risk they are taking in terms of a botched job. I really don't see it as exploitation at all. I see it as a win-win situation. The photographer gets to try out an assignment, and the service requester gets his photographer for free or for a small fee.

Yes, I have done one TFCD for someone who had just obtained a post-graduate degree a few years ago. He put out a request on Clubsnap, I responded, and we arranged to have a shoot, together with his family. He was pleased with my work, and I was pleased with the chance to try out an "assignment". I don't think there was any exploitation going on at all.

If someone getting married or a commercial entity wants to make sure the job gets done right the first time, they will jolly well hire a professional and pay for it. It's caveat emptor, even with a well-paid professional. That's why professionals buy insurance and have a clause in the contract to cover themselves in the event of something unexpected happening.

Even in the example of doctors and lawyers - if you're really sick, you really don't want to see a fly-by-night doctor operating out of a wooden hut in the jungle. If you need a good lawyer, you won't want someone who offers free legal advice on an internet forum (and we have many of those here as well). But if you just have a simple flu, you can easily self-medicate with medication from the pharmacy. That's not exploiting the poor pharmacist, is it? And if you want to write a simple will, you can make one for ten bucks over the internet. That's not exploiting the website offering the service, is it?

Maybe I'm a little thick, but I really don't get this "exploitation" bit. If I were to find another name for it, I would call it "protectionism". But that would be politically incorrect, I guess.

hee hee. i think eikin going to scream : "READ MY POST!!! I DUN CARE WHAT IS IT OUTSIDE!! IT IS NOT ABOUT ECONOMICS DOCTORS OR WHATEVER!!"

haha:bsmilie:

anyway, seriously speaking, eikin is worried about CSers who get coned by companies. his issue is not about CSers wreaking havoc in the industry. *please tell me i got it right this time:embrass: *