A need for discretion?

[Pain]

Sometime back in a FS (forsale) post, a moderated made an unwarranted comment, if I remembered well "wah 2nd hand so expensive, I saw elsewhere cheaper"

I did politely PM'ed that particular moderator and expressed my concern that that comment would hurt the sale. And yet, time after time, this particular moderator went on making unwarranted comments in Buysell threads

Everyone would agree that the forum is public, and yes, everyone is entitled to comment. However, unwarranted comments are not welcomed, especially if it comes from a moderator.

The purpose of the Buysell sub forum is provide an avenue for members of this community to, Buy and Sell.

In my opinion, a seller has the right to sell his/her item at any price he/she wants, it is up to the buyer to decide if his/her budget permits.

Whether the seller profits from the sale has nothing to do with the moderator.

I feel that moderators should exercise discretion when making comments. By making unwarranted comments they are seriously undermining the purpose of the Buysell sub-forum.

Unless there are guidelines stipulating that SELLERs must sell at XXX dollars for YYY items and that sellers cannot use employ the use of sales pitch or copy, I concede.

Moderators are there to ensure that posts are not swammed with filthy words or malicious remarks.

Most recently, I put up an ad for the sale of a high-end lens for $1288*, and in "fine print" explained that $1288 is one part of the total payment and the original sale price is $2200.

Yes my intent was to attract attention, is it wrong? Am I violating any rule? And this particular moderated started a flood of remarks because he made this comment "False Advertising".

If he was empowered to police, why didn't he remove my post and PM'ed me that this kind of sale is NOT ALLOWED? Instead, he just went on to poison the post.

Why can't he just leave it alone? Has he nothing else better to do?

If his intent was to warn other members, he could've done it more objectively, perhaps, to the tune of "Please read the fine prints".

And to other moderators, I'm not asking for approval or to seek justice, just airing my opnions like how others would air theirs, like "I think MINT should not be used for a 2nd hand item", remember that?

I beg the operators of this community to seriously consider appointing their moderators. Malicious comments are certainly not welcomed by members, although I don't speak for all.

I would like to hear the views of other moderators. Help me understand this community a little better.

 

[roygoh]

Hi Pain,

I am TEMPORARILY locking this thread until the moderator team has the time to discuss this issue and come back to you with a reply. It is, afterall, 4 AM in Singpapore.

The purpose is to prevent this from going into a flame war, as I definitely see the potential of it happening.

In the mean time, your opinion stays in the open, so you can be assured that you are heard by the rest.

Since you are directly addressing the CS moderator team, it is only fair that we have the chance to discuss it before coming back to you with our position.

Thank you for your understanding. And I would appreciate if you wait until we get back to you and not openning another thread on the same issue.

- Roy

 

[Jason Ho]

1) Everyone including moderators are entitled to comment on any thread and post. There will be no special restriction or privilege given to anyone in ClubSNAP regarding posting.

2) Our forum guidelines apply to everyone (including mods). If any CS member feels another party is violating the rules/guidelines, you can always report it to the respective subforum moderators.

3) If theres any feedback/comment/complain/issue against a CS moderator, he/she can always always report it (via PM or email) to Darren or me (Jason Ho).

4) If theres any doubt/ideas/comment about our guidelines and/or the way how forum is managed, feedbacks like this should be posted under Feedback and Suggestion Box instead of Kopitiam or including those "doubts/comments/issues" in their post/signature.

I hope this msg addresses the concerns pointed out by the originator.

Last but not least, I like to thanks everyone for their contributions in ClubSNAP. We are always looking for ways and means to improve the forum and its management. And I always encourage more idea/feedback on how we can improve the forum. So if you have any, let us know!

 

[Pain]

I am TEMPORARILY locking your thread titled "A need for discretion?" in the Kopitiam forum until the moderator team has the time to discuss this issue and come back to you with a reply. It is, afterall, 4 AM in Singpapore.

The purpose is to prevent this from going into a flame war, as I definitely see the potential of it happening.

In the mean time, your opinion stays in the open, so you can be assured that you are heard by the rest.

Since you are directly addressing the CS moderator team, it is only fair that we have the chance to discuss it before coming back to you with our position.

Thank you for your understanding. And I would appreciate if you wait until we get back to you and not openning another thread on the same issue.

It is a very simple opion of mine being expressed and yes I did ask if individual CS moderators would like to comment, or express their opnions. They are not oblidge to do so.

I did _NOT_ address the CS moderators as a whole, seeking approval or justice and I am not interested in any official reply. I also do not see potential of this going into a flame war as no names were mentioned.

Adding to this, I did not question how moderators were appointed, all I ask of them is to perhaps give more consideration when selecting a moderator, its just a suggestion.

If the message were politically inclined, contained nudity or profanity, and in anyway that violates SBA's guideline, then I agree that it should be deleted, locked or moved.

This is but a very localised topic to this community and my intent is certainly not to undermine the efforts of the CS team.

Just a point of correction, the message was posted at around 2.40am. And for the record, this is not a personal attack.

You can delete, lock or move any post, after all you are the financer, founder, moderator, owner and I sincerely believe you have every right to play God.

 

[Jason Ho]

*I have just moved yr latest reply from Kopitiam to merge into this thread.*

I have already mentioned in my previous reply and I am going to do that again. Threads like these should be posted under Feedback and Suggestion Box forum.

I just want to clarify that whenever a thread is locked, its usually done for a good reason. The reason why this thread was temporary locked up was already explained by Roy.

And IF the message was politically inclined, contained nudity or profanity, and in anyway that violates SBA's guideline, it will usually be deleted and NOT just locked up with a reply like what Roy did.

I have already addressed the other concerns above.

PS : I dont see this or say this thread as a personal attack. Neither did Roy mention it is.

 

[Pain]

Perhaps members of this community especially moderators should try (and for some Especially very hard) not to undermine the attempt of the seller.

A comment like "False advertising" is not constructive, neither is it objective.

And since it is suggest a complain be lodge, yes, for the record, that particular moderator has MANY a times tried to poison threads. So do review his status!

Let this be the last.

 

[YSLee]

Originally posted by Pain
A comment like "False advertising" is not constructive, neither is it objective.

Not necessarily so, as I shall proceed to demonstrate.

Firstly, we shall take a look at advertising; manipulative advertising, to be more precise. Tom L. Beauchamp, in his article, "Manipulative Advertising", Business and Professional Ethics Journal 3 (Spring/Summer 1984), advertisments fall under a continuum of influences, from coercion to persuasion. In the middle is manipulation, which Beauchamp uses to cover concepts such as incentives, temptation, and deception, among others. He goes on to state that manipulation is considered an attempt to "induce one to believe what is not correct, unsound, or not backed by good reasons," which involves "deception being used to to influence a person's choice or action."

Using the example of bank advertising in Beauchamp's article, banks in the US at one point in time advertised fixed deposits with a very high interest rate which was only applicable in the short term (say, 25%for a few months), then a much lower interest rate (say 10% for the rest of the term) mentioned only in fine print at the end of the article. Here, the advertisements were clearly designed to attract customers looking at high interest rates, based on the deceptively high interest rate, and the banks were successful in bringing in a large number of customers.

Looking at the advertisement, we can draw a similar parellel: The original header of the sale was to the tune of FS: Nikon AFS 17-35mm for $1288*, with a message at the very end of the advertisment which states: "* $1288 upfront, $1000 to be paid next month. Alternatively $2200 one time payment." The header clearly states the lens is on sale for $1288, yet the end of the message goes on to say there is another payment needed, or one can pay $2200 for the lens in a single payment. This would indicate that the lens is certainly not for sale at $1288, as the header states. It can be considered that the header was written to induce potential buyers in clicking on the thread in the hopes of buying the lens via the low price of the lens, which turned out to be otherwise. Thus, the advertisement can be considered a form of manipulative advertising.

Having established that the advertisement falls under manipulative advertising, would calling it false advertising be unconstructive and subjective?

Examining the facts once again, I recall the first poster to object to the style of the ad was NOT a moderator. I too, found the ad somewhat distasteful, but did not air my views then. By calling it false advertising, it would serve both purposes: firstly it will reinforce the concept of fair advertising in this forum, by discouraging manipulative advertising in the buy and sell forum, and secondly that it tells less than informed buyers that the deal is not as good as it seems (I'd like to note that in this case, the full terms of the sale at the end of the message was spelt out clearly and would pose little chance of a misunderstanding).

As for objective terms, I believe I have given a stand on a small area in advertising in what would constitute fair advertising or not. In what way then, would it not be objective (bearing in mind, this is about as objective as it can get in a social science)?

 

[Jason Ho]

Originally posted by Pain
Perhaps members of this community especially moderators should try (and for some Especially very hard) not to undermine the attempt of the seller.

A comment like "False advertising" is not constructive, neither is it objective.

And since it is suggest a complain be lodge, yes, for the record, that particular moderator has MANY a times tried to poison threads. So do review his status!

Let this be the last.

As I mentioned before, moderator or not, I do NOT encourage any CS member to undermine the attempt of any seller. At the same time, I also appreciate if the involved parties DO NOT attempt to resolve matters in their own ways. The reason why I discourage people from doing so is because the situation usually turns out to be worse and uglier in the end.

The moderators and admins are here for a good reason. So don't feel shy about approaching us. If the involved parties feel they can settle it privately without the help of admins and mods, please go ahead and do it. If they want to do it publicly, there are feedbacks forum that you can post too.

I hope this final msg will make everyone understand our (ClubSNAP) stand. In future, please make use of the Report this post to a moderator function made available under every posting to notify us. Thanks!

 

[Pain]

Originally posted by YSLee
FS: Nikon AFS 17-35mm for $1288*, with a message at the very end of the advertisment which

Was: FS: Nikon AFS 17-35mm for $1288?*

 

[Pain]

...by discouraging manipulative advertising in the buy and sell forum, and secondly that it tells less than informed buyers that the deal is not as good as it seems (I'd like to note that in this case, the full terms of the sale at the end of the message was spelt out clearly and would pose little chance of a misunderstanding).

Suggestion adapted from YSLee:

Why don't the moderators or operators then PUT this warning up in the front page, anyone who does so will face civil suit? Let this then be the law that governs it all, case closed.

 

[kahheng]

That is, suspend the ability to post messages in addition to the actual for sale or wanted ads.

Make that section a simple classads type of category. Whoever wants to enquire, complain, "advice" (i.e., make stupid remarks about pricing), etc. need just PM the seller.

No "add ons", no problems.

This would be the most obvious solution.

Question is, does the Clubsnap forum software allow this?

I absolutely sympathise with the original poster. It's a free market afterall. Some folks just can't seem to understand this.

 

[Mr Fish]

Hmm... i sympathise with Pain... Even though he intended to sell at prices higher than stated in the title, that was to attract viewers. In his post, he did mention that that was not the price he was going to sell at. Anyway, it's merely an invitation to treat and doesn't constitute an offer by any means. So why is he not allowed to advertise this way? If a blur buyer thinks he can get it cheap, then upon communicating with Pain, he would have realised his mistake. No harm done to anybody right? :dunno: Would you sue M1 or scream out false advertising when you found out that the free phone they are giving out also comes with registration, sim card fees, must trade in phone and sign 2 yr contract and blah blah blah?

 

[Jason Ho]

Originally posted by Mr Fish
...So why is he not allowed to advertise this way? ..

I want to clarify something. I have never mentioned that Pain is NOT allowed to post WTS threads with *fine print* in ClubSNAP. And I don't remember any moderator mentioning that as ClubSNAP official stand as well. At this point in time, theres NO CS guideline that disallows that.

We are currently reviewing the Buy and Sell guidelines on whats appropriate and whats not. Regardless the outcome of our review, the idea of a Civil suit and warning (on front page) is too far-fetched.

 

[Parchiao]

I am not too familiar with the software that drives this website, but is it possible for it to be tweaked in such a way that

1. except for the original person who came up with the post, who can edit the buy/sell post, nobody else can add comments to the thread
2. posts have a shelf life before they are dropped e.g. 1 week
3. interested buyers or sellers can pm the originator of the post directly, which we already have.

 

[Mr Fish]

1. Good idea. We can also have another forum where we can discuss prices so that those who have the urge to say that something is too expensive can do so in a general way, but since it's in another forum, the seller won't be affected and won't feel that the thread is being "poisoned".

Something like "How much do you think a 10d is worth 2nd hand?" and not "I think this 10d (with link) is too expensive. Not worth it!!!"

2. Might not work, cos some items take forever to be sold. Maybe we should require the sellers to delete or edit their thread to announce that their items are sold. I still see some posts that are redundant and are not removed.

Originally posted by Parchiao
I am not too familiar with the software that drives this website, but is it possible for it to be tweaked in such a way that

1. except for the original person who came up with the post, who can edit the buy/sell post, nobody else can add comments to the thread
2. posts have a shelf life before they are dropped e.g. 1 week
3. interested buyers or sellers can pm the originator of the post directly, which we already have.

 

[Pain]

When someone advertises "Lens for at at $1" (just for talk sake, not refering to any advertisment out there) and in the body of the message it says, actual price is $999 (again, anr example, for talk sake).

It could be that the intend of the seller is just to attract attention, how many people would really "think" that that lens is $1? They would have read the whole message clearly to find out more, wouldn't they? So in the end if the lens is $999 and the reader does not agree with the price, he/she will just move on!

Ok, so its a "waste" of time, some might say.

Then why is it that they don't just SKIP the message and not "zoom" into it? Given that they could've scanned the header first?

So the operators MUST set a guideline, i.e., if such advertising is allowed or disallowed.

Last point, whatever YSLee mentioned, he has a point in what he mentioned and I thank him for the trouble he took to pen such a lengthy and "factual" (I havent verfied his refered paper, i won't, anyway he maybe pulling a fast one, IMHO)

 

[Darren]

Originally posted by Pain
So the operators MUST set a guideline, i.e., if such advertising is allowed or disallowed.

We will be putting out some revised guidelines on Buy & Sell Forum very shortly, and will attempt to clarify "creative marketing" issues such as this.