8MP Canon entry DSLR out.. where is Nikon's??

[Wai]

i saw lots of bit*hing in the US forums about nikon latest 4mp reharsh...

sure normal ppl may not need 16mp,

but its nice to have more (quoted from ken Seet)

in practise, 4MP is enough for my current needs, since most of my shots are for 4R, S8R and web use, that's why i think it is ok for d2hs to be 4MP & 8fps. It is the price that they have to do something with.

sometimes, it is not only nice to have more MP, just a question that a potential client asked me yesterday : how many MP is the camera u are using?

I answer, 4MP

he said : my A95 is 5MP, why dont use my A95 instead? I want to print the pic to poster size.

in the end, it took me sometimes to convince him that 1D's 4MP is better than A95's 5MP and enough for his needs.

if I had a 8MP MKII, it would be much easier :dunno:

 

[Belle&Sebastain]

in practise, 4MP is enough for my current needs, since most of my shots are for 4R, S8R and web use, that's why i think it is ok for d2hs to be 4MP & 8fps. It is the price that they have to do something with.

sometimes, it is not only nice to have more MP, just a question that a potential client asked me yesterday : how many MP is the camera u are using?

I answer, 4MP

he said : my A95 is 5MP, why dont use my A95 instead? I want to print the pic to poster size.

in the end, it took me sometimes to convince him that 1D's 4MP is better than A95's 5MP and enough for his needs.



if I had a 8MP MKII, it would be much easier :dunno:

it will never end this type, see the pro-consumer cameras are going at 8mp already.

i just have to tell them that for a reason that my camera is bigger than theirs and will not be stupid enough to buy it if their camera can do a better job. For more smarter clients, i direct to the 16mp photographers lor.

 

[Wai]

i really feel for the nikon users and the dieheart fans of the brand. but that being said if noone buys it, they would surely lower the prices to the US$1999 mark again rite?

but i dun think the price for D2hs will ever be lower than D2h right?

then who will still want to buy it when D2h is cheaper and similar?

I rememeber last time when canon upgrade D60 to 10D, many pple were mocking 10D that there isn't much improvement...but in fact, 10D not only has faster AF, more buffer, lesser noise, better colour........most important thing is, it is also $1100 cheaper than D60 ($2700 vs $3800)

 

[Padawan]

I thought I would quote this post from FM Forums by LordArka. It's the best summary of the situation I have seen so far.

--

It's obviously clear that cameras are for taking pictures, and that the use of cameras as fetish objects or milestones in technological achievement contribute little to the artistic endeavor. But what I think is salient in this discussion is not whether you are satisfied with your gear, but rather, as plnelson has already mentioned, the business aspect of photography. It is here that I think Nikon has made and continues to make critical mistakes, and Nikonians continue to apologize for it. Even as pleased photographers, we should recognize as both artists and investors in technology that these recent announcements by both Canon and Nikon are very important to our craft; perhaps not now, but certainly 2, 5, or even 10 years from now.

As such, they paint a very stark picture of two companies with very different approaches to addressing consumer needs.

Canon has shifted the marketplace with the Rebel, and is squarely targeting the sub-$1000 entry level market which they created. It's true that Nikon supplanted Canon with a better product (D70), but the Rebel XT gives Canon the edge again. Considering that the D70 is Nikon's cash cow, and the source of revenue for Nikon's ongoing equipment development, I can't understand how some of you don't see the importance of this announcement. If the XT starts eating into Nikon's paycheck, it is bad for Nikonians directly, and bad for Canonians indirectly, as Canon's competition grows weaker and weaker.

One can call Canon a 'photographic prostitute' or bemoan the 'planned obsolesence' strategy all they want, but it is clear with every Canon product release that they are listening to their consumers and delivering innovations to their bodies to match expectations. The Rebel addresses speed, styling, and feature lockout issues directly. All of these 'issues' were widely reported, and Canon has moved to make the appropriate changes. Nikon has completely failed to do that with the D2Hs, which was arguably not a product intended for a broad enough audience anyway. Yet once again, some Nikonians are spinning the comparatively slow and haphazard pace of innovation at Nikon as a compelling advantage rather than a crippling limitation.

I don't know how some of you can imagine that releasing new products to address complaints in previous products is somehow a bad business strategy.

Often, the people who complain that Canon undercuts the used market for their cameras through frequent product releases are the same people who claim that they would never sell their own gear since it works for them. So even though their professed satisfaction with existing kit would insulate from vagaries in the used gear market, they applaud Nikon for protecting the value of their equipment by not innovating. Talk about apolgism!

To those who hype slow innovation by a parent company as an advantage that protects used product prices, take a look at the Olympus E-1. Here we have an outstanding camera from a smaller manufacturer with dedicated lens options. They have not released any updates to that camera, and it used to retail for $1999 body only. I can now pick up the body with a lens for $1000! Why? Because even though Olympus can't innovate to keep up, others, like Canon, can, and hence bury the competition and demolish the second hand markets for themselves AND everyone else!

Nikon should've seen this coming, and I hope they have something to address this. The new Rebel now pretty much does everything that the D70 does, and they added two more megapixels to it. That was extremely smart, considering that the entry level market is pretty sensitive to resolution. If they don't, and if the D2Hs is the extent of Nikon's innovation for this show, then I hope that more Nikonians are willing to hold Nikon to account, in some way, for their inertness and conservatism. If system adherents are not willing to recognize and somehow make Nikon address the limitations in their strategy, Nikon really is doomed...

 

[mpenza]

To those who hype slow innovation by a parent company as an advantage that protects used product prices, take a look at the Olympus E-1. Here we have an outstanding camera from a smaller manufacturer with dedicated lens options. They have not released any updates to that camera, and it used to retail for $1999 body only. I can now pick up the body with a lens for $1000! Why? Because even though Olympus can't innovate to keep up, others, like Canon, can, and hence bury the competition and demolish the second hand markets for themselves AND everyone else!

Have mentioned the above before. Another example is the release of Canon 10D at a lower price point which resulted in Nikon and Fujifilm cutting the selling prices for their D100 and S2 Pro respectively by around $1k almost overnight.

 

[litefoot]

price hike? hmm.. didnt the D70 price just dropped... hehe.. I hope this will cause the D70 price to drop even further.. hehe.. sub 1.3K for body+lens? and less then 1K for body alone.

Higher price for the 350D. Now, apparently not.

 

[Belle&Sebastain]

but i dun think the price for D2hs will ever be lower than D2h right?

then who will still want to buy it when D2h is cheaper and similar?

I rememeber last time when canon upgrade D60 to 10D, many pple were mocking 10D that there isn't much improvement...but in fact, 10D not only has faster AF, more buffer, lesser noise, better colour........most important thing is, it is also $1100 cheaper than D60 ($2700 vs $3800)

eeh, they are going to discounting D2H rite? but if D2hs is not selling they better do something abt it and price cutting seems to be one of their moves.

you stated the D60 and 10D issue but is completely opposite in this case, D2Hs is going to be priced more expensively then D2H, which is why many people are upset about.

 

[LeeDan]

I am sure Nikon will come up with the 8 mp dslr. Just a matter of time.

Uhmm, why just 8mp!!!... ;( Why not 10mp or 12mp? :think:

 

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

Uhmm, why just 8mp!!!... ;( Why not 10mp or 12mp? :think:

YA!!! WHY!!!

Why not 22mp or more like a medium format digital back? den with the shooting system like a medium format for high speed flashing??? y??? :bsmilie:

 

[espn]

Uhmm, why just 8mp!!!... ;( Why not 10mp or 12mp? :think:

Filesize will be an issue...processing will also take longer.

Anyway, if the sensor is not of good quality give you 64MP also no use, the details rendered & DR will not be sufficient to bring out the best in the resolution.

MP is one thing, the quality of the images produced by the sensor is another factor.

 

[Garion]

Higher price for the 350D. Now, apparently not.

Whats the market price for D70 set now? Canon 350D (kit set) has a RRP of tentatively USD899 (close to SGD $1,500). Guess Nikon will have to slash pricing to ard $1,500 to compete directly with it? Consumers are gonna have a field day (and headache) deciding which model to get. And yes, expect lots of 350D vs D70 threads popping up soon. ;p Could this be the true death knell for high end prosumer digicams?

 

[LeeDan]

Perhaps those that have strong ties with Nikon can answer this..
..snip..

Enjoyed your piece. Here's my 2-cent worth:



I guess Nikon's strategy now is: affordable "entry-level" DSLR, expensive accessories like lenses, wireless module, flashes, etc.

The next "D70" has got to feel less plasticky (excuse me!), higher level features, attractive pricing (around S$1-5 to 2 grand). Hopefully within 6 months of the D20 launch.

And if Nikon decides to break new ground and come out with a Foveon sensor, that will be something to die for!

Here's the extract of an interview with one of nikons DSLR developer.. and their hopes..http://www.nikon.com.sg/PRODUCT/DigiSLR/D100_Dev/D100_2.htm

Last question: What kind of digital cameras would you like to develop in the future?
TW: I think the goal of every digital camera developer is to make an affordable digital SLR camera. Hopefully make one as reasonably priced as a film camera. The D100 is still a little expensive - about 300,000 Japanese yen - so it's not an easy buy yet. Well, at least not for me.
My goal is to make a digital SLR camera that retails at about the same price as the F80 (N80), which is less than 100,000 Japanese yen.

Do you think that's possible?
TW: We have to overcome a lot of hurdles... But we're working very hard. The COOLPIX series is reasonably priced... I'd like to make a digital SLR camera in that price range. There are many customers who are waiting for such a camera. Therefore, we have to start our research all over again - start from scratch! -- and try to make a high-performance camera at a reasonable price. That is my dream.


looks like they already have that in mind :lovegrin:

 

[LeeDan]

Have mentioned the above before. Another example is the release of Canon 10D at a lower price point which resulted in Nikon and Fujifilm cutting the selling prices for their D100 and S2 Pro respectively by around $1k almost overnight.

and to add as long as the manufacturers have not perfected a camera that does not require alterations to the pictures as like in conventional SLR (picture are taken on slides so need not and cannnot do any alterations right), there will always be that fight to gain better market share, in the DSLR arena... through newer and supposely new models with better features.. this you can be assured. (uhmmm am i right to say that Canon has given up on developing pro SLR... Nikon still has the F6) :dunno:

and there'll be more DSLR cameras to come that's to benefit us... but not necessary our investment or pockets having said that, some profess that we are happy with our gears, will still somehow not be satisfied with what we have and will still go and buy! buy! buy! (ESPN--permission to borrow your quote) ... in the hope that it's not the camera/gear that limits the quality of our creative works. And that's just how it is... :dunno: :lovegrin:

 

[gadrian]

and to add as long as the manufacturers have not perfected a camera that does not require alterations to the pictures as like in conventional SLR (picture are taken on slides so need not and cannnot do any alterations right), there will always be that fight to gain better market share, in the DSLR arena... through newer and supposely new models with better features.. this you can be assured. (uhmmm am i right to say that Canon has given up on developing pro SLR... Nikon still has the F6) :dunno:

Ehh.. cannot totally agree with that.. coz.. there used to be a set of skilled people doing what is called negative touchup's or slide touchups, even of a group that do slide painting.. colouring of black and white slides or negatives.. And when printing.. they would do things like duo-toning, multigrade printing, bleaching, burning, dodging and more.. in the coloured world.. the man that sits behind the FujiFrontier machine has the ability to tweak CMYK, rotate your image, sharpen, crop, resize and do lots more..........

and with today's demand for digital images.. even conventional media images (film) are scanned in and then will still go through the digital imaging process as................ no one human is the same.. each has a different perception of the same image.

IMHO.. the F6 was launched as a token for die-hards of film SLR's. I dont think Nikon expect to really produce or sell many of these. Also the F6 could have been the test bed platform for many of Nikon's current technologies from i-TTL to the new metering sensor, to focusing sensor.. and Nikon probably said.. hey.. since we have all these in this prototype.. why not just release it as the next film SLR.. hehe.. Also.. dont be surprised the next DSLR could look identical to the F6 in chassis, as these could be a 'prototype' of Nikon's FullFrame DSLR..

Who knows... hehe

 

[F5user]

Ehh.. cannot totally agree with that.. coz.. there used to be a set of skilled people doing what is called negative touchup's or slide touchups, even of a group that do slide painting.. colouring of black and white slides or negatives.. And when printing.. they would do things like duo-toning, multigrade printing, bleaching, burning, dodging and more.. in the coloured world.. the man that sits behind the FujiFrontier machine has the ability to tweak CMYK, rotate your image, sharpen, crop, resize and do lots more..........

and with today's demand for digital images.. even conventional media images (film) are scanned in and then will still go through the digital imaging process as................ no one human is the same.. each has a different perception of the same image.

IMHO.. the F6 was launched as a token for die-hards of film SLR's. I dont think Nikon expect to really produce or sell many of these. Also the F6 could have been the test bed platform for many of Nikon's current technologies from i-TTL to the new metering sensor, to focusing sensor.. and Nikon probably said.. hey.. since we have all these in this prototype.. why not just release it as the next film SLR.. hehe.. Also.. dont be surprised the next DSLR could look identical to the F6 in chassis, as these could be a 'prototype' of Nikon's FullFrame DSLR..

Who knows... hehe

Don't think it was as a token... most pj companies here, whose departments rely on the quality of film, use the f5, AND the f6. The place i'm working with just received a $!@@$!$@! batch of F6s for their fashion coverage / art dept.

perhaps it's only in asia i guess...

I think from experience, film is still the mainstay of hobbyists and semi professionals here. PJs are stuck to the digital world due to the demand for a minimal turn around time. But other than that, where i'm based seems to be seeing a bigger usage in film than in digital.

Just my personal experience at work.. that's all.

 

[Padawan]

Uhmm, why just 8mp!!!... ;( Why not 10mp or 12mp? :think:

Because Nikonians believe that 4MP is enough!!! Just hang around here and read their posts!!! WOW CAN PRINT POSTER SIZE WITH 4MP!!! WAH INTERPOLATION SO GOOD!!!

 

[ibs]

Because Nikonians believe that 4MP is enough!!! Just hang around here and read their posts!!! WOW CAN PRINT POSTER SIZE WITH 4MP!!! WAH INTERPOLATION SO GOOD!!!

i dunno man.. i don't print posters for a living.

 

[USM]

Perhaps those that have strong ties with Nikon can answer this..

This wait for the D100 replacement is a real pain. Not surprised to see defections to the Canon stable. 3 years and not a sound of a replacement.

Sigh..

Nikon.. what is going on in that muddled mind of yours.. Are you high on drugs or something.. or just plain arrogantly blind to the pleas of your faithful users..

Nikon's efforst to continually forsake its faithful users is a sure sign of arrogance or just plain stupidity on the side of their marketing teams.. and on their management.

Even the D2x launch is put @ such an "auspicious" time @ such an accessible location. What GREAT planning!!

So what if they their tripled profit during the last financial quarter.. with their current attitude and today's standing of what they are doing.. doesnt mean jack sh*it to me or the other photographer next to me.

Sorry ah all.. just be b*tching here.. perhaps some of us should advocate a defection to Canon..

Gadrian, I simply like your objective views on Nikon vs Canon Marketing Strategies despite that you are a Nikon user. :thumbsup:

Nikon has already realised that Canon will definitely come out with a new entry DSLR to compete with its D70, given the fact that D70 has helped Nikon to capture some lost market shares and turned around its profitability. Nikon has also decided to slash down the price by $300 for a less than a year old D70, as it has foreseen that Canon will launch the new entry DLSR in the next PMA. Canon is well-known to come out new products in 1.5 years time. This is first time in history that Nikon has done such a thing (slashing prices). This has caught off-guard of many consumers. ;( Some of my friends have bought the D70 kit for $2,288, and the next day they found out that the price has fallen by $300. Within a short period of time, they have lost money. To Nikon, it is better to sell as many units of D70 as possible before Canon counter attack.

Canon is not stupid either. They also reduced the price of black 300D kit to $1,530 to clear stocks fast as they know that a new model is rolling out in a few months time.

However, Nikon is more of a reactive player. One possible reasons could be due to 'Patent' rights. Quoted by leofoo :

To understand this, it has been 10 years since the Canon's EF lenses which has its USM (Ultra Sonic Motor, Current version is 2nd generation) incorporated within and that is the primary problem for Nikon to hunt for a solution (becoz' USM technology was patented by Canon). Look like the 10 year effort was wasted, look at the AF-S series, it was a "borrowed" technology in priciple. I think those guys at Nikon Research Lab never realised the fact Nikon is not holding the triumph card anymore like those days, even some third party lens manufacturers have some of their top notch lenses packed with more advanced technology within, than the Nikkors now!

Perhaps the only advantage is: Nikkors are still superior in the optical glass itself, but unfortunately there just isn't updated technology to support the excellent optics when it reaches the AF era. Generally, there is not much of a problem for shorter focal length lenses, the main problem with the long teles/zoom - USM technique by Canon seems to be the logical answer to overcome driving the optical elements in groups in speedier timing and less touque. Japanese manufacturers do make "arrangements" to allow others to share resources, and thus the AF-S is kind of "borrowed" technology. But I do hope whatever the arrangement is, the AF-S can be extended to lower focal lengths of the Nikkors.

 

[taku1a]

To understand this, it has been 10 years since the Canon's EF lenses which has its USM (Ultra Sonic Motor, Current version is 2nd generation) incorporated within and that is the primary problem for Nikon to hunt for a solution (becoz' USM technology was patented by Canon).

Any idea how long is the validity of Canon's patents that are related to USM technology? And whether Canon has cornered up all the related patents such that it can preclude all forms of quick motor driven focusing technology such as Sigma's HSM or Nikon's SWM (AF-S)?

Or was Canon forced to share patents because the other two manufacturers also hold related patents that are critical to USM, HSM, and SWM? I guess we'll never know. :embrass:

 

[F5user]

i dunno man.. i don't print posters for a living.

aahahahaha
good one ...

honestly... mp isn't the only pt here la...

think abt cost, storage, media, and most imptly, what u NEED for the job

Colleagues of mine covering sports for the company, COMPLAIN all the time... not only are they blessed to carry the 1dmkII, but their also blessed with media that costs MUCH MORE than the camera... ie: 2gb x 5, or 4gb x 5, or portable hddisks x 3...

So do think abt it.. imho, nikon's still so viable out there because they cater to what ppl want and need.. Back in singapore, most ppl seem to only want and need Megapixels and poster sized quality pictures..., and hence the d2hs with the same mp count isn't well accepted esp for its increased price. But it's a God sent for ppl like me, where we could use the link interface to our Lowrances (GPSs) in the field, so as to enable our field centers to track our whereabouts and to also enhance image transmission via sattelite technology. ( yes it works ) I think that was Nikon's main objective of the body, and that's what you'll be paying for if u do decide to get it. Hence... if u need it, get it.. if not, it's your call.

Here, a well taken 2048 x 1068 pic cropped would be enough for me to bring a salary home that would feed me and my family.
It all depends on what u use the camera for... ie: job/work/school, or hobby/compare with ppl at peninsula/friends, etc.

and oh yeah... though i'm new around this forum, i think i speak for everyone here when i request that you kindly hold your sarcasm to yourself... thanks padawan.

;p