5D MK 2 Discussion: Black dots at high exposure

[justanut]

Plan:

Allow the black dots phenomenon to go unsolved at launch. It is as many have said something that doesn't affect the majority of users and barely noticeable on normal prints.

Result:

Canon die-hard fans will still buy the camera and believe in Canon solving the problem for them eventually.

But for those who were sitting on the fence deciding between the Mk I and the Mk II, they would heave a sigh of relief (having finally found a reason not to grab the Mk II) and go buy the Mk I, hence clearing whatever backlog of Mk I that Canon still has in stock.

Post:

Once sales have stablised / Mk I stock reasonably depleted / Canon has decided that maximum benefits have been reaped without long term damage to the Mk II, they will release a fix for the problem.

***

:bsmilie: Possible?

 

[surefire]

Plan:

Allow the black dots phenomenon to go unsolved at launch. It is as many have said something that doesn't affect the majority of users and barely noticeable on normal prints.

Result:

Canon die-hard fans will still buy the camera and believe in Canon solving the problem for them eventually.

But for those who were sitting on the fence deciding between the Mk I and the Mk II, they would heave a sigh of relief (having finally found a reason not to grab the Mk II) and go buy the Mk I, hence clearing whatever backlog of Mk I that Canon still has in stock.

Post:

Once sales have stablised / Mk I stock reasonably depleted / Canon has decided that maximum benefits have been reaped without long term damage to the Mk II, they will release a fix for the problem.

***

:bsmilie: Possible?

Interesting theory! However, it's hard to imagine that Canon would release a defective product to push the sales of its Mk I although this may be the consequential result. On the other hand, it's also difficult to understand how Canon and its army of QC personnel and testers could have missed this issue when it was immediately picked up within days of the camera's release. Canon should have expected that many buyers of this range of cameras will be the ones relying on it for a living and will be those inspecting their photos at 100% to ensure they deliver the best quality.

 

[CreaXion]

Interesting theory! However, it's hard to imagine that Canon would release a defective product to push the sales of its Mk I although this may be the consequential result. On the other hand, it's also difficult to understand how Canon and its army of QC personnel and testers could have missed this issue when it was immediately picked up within days of the camera's release. Canon should have expected that many buyers of this range of cameras will be the ones relying on it for a living and will be those inspecting their photos at 100% to ensure they deliver the best quality.

Simple reason, most relying on it for a living dun pixel peep. Majority of customers also dun pixel peep. How many customers would take out the magnifier to look at every inch of the photo or view the photo at 1:1 magnification and say, "Hey! There is a black dot!"

Even if we look at the problems posed by the nature photographer which is a real world image problem, it can be resolved with a simple PS. The kissing shot with the dots on the lights are also barely noticeable unless u pixel peep at 1:1. Even if the photo is blown up to 1:1, do u think the photo would be viewed as a whole or in parts.

What strikes customers and normal viewers are composition, colours and concept?

 

[surefire]

Simple reason, most relying on it for a living dun pixel peep. Majority of customers also dun pixel peep. How many customers would take out the magnifier to look at every inch of the photo or view the photo at 1:1 magnification and say, "Hey! There is a black dot!"

Even if we look at the problems posed by the nature photographer which is a real world image problem, it can be resolved with a simple PS. The kissing shot with the dots on the lights are also barely noticeable unless u pixel peep at 1:1. Even if the photo is blown up to 1:1, do u think the photo would be viewed as a whole or in parts.

What strikes customers and normal viewers are composition, colours and concept?

If you don't worry about detail...then why do you need to buy a 21 MP, full-frame camera?? Unless people are doing seriously large prints there aren't too many compelling reasons for a HUGE, high MP full-frame camera's "detail."

If you don't need big prints...or serious cropping...you don't need that kind of detail and you don't need a 5DII. If you only take photos in bright daylight and only print postcard-sized photos, a good P&S like the LX3 will give photos that are almost as good as those taken with a DSLR.

Whether you need to pixel-peep or not really depends on the photo. Take this example:-

This is a crop from a image taken by a professional who was paid to take photos of the lights in a hotel. I am sure you don't have to "pixel-peep" to see the problem. If you are in his shoes, would you be disappointed and would you dare to submit such a photo? How much time do you have to spend in PP to fix this image? And why do you have to pay so much for the camera and still be expected to correct for its defects through PP?

When a camera of this calibre fails to capture effectively the same image elements that previous cameras capture WITHOUT defect...there's a problem...and it should not be minimized or dismissed.

 

[neoro]

we learned so much out of this black dot issue. Every owner has done a bit of "check" to a certain extend, indirectly learning something new about their camera / photography tech.

 

[rinaldi86]

/report in

seriously, u guys especially some, black dot here n there,

but where the heck is it? I'm running 24" and I still don't see it in MOST except a tiny handful of the pictures!

still a photographer or a ICSIE? "Image CSI Expert"? :dunno:


/report out

 

[Kit]

Whether you need to pixel-peep or not really depends on the photo. Take this example:-

This is a crop from a image taken by a professional who was paid to take photos of the lights in a hotel. I am sure you don't have to "pixel-peep" to see the problem. If you are in his shoes, would you be disappointed and would you dare to submit such a photo? How much time do you have to spend in PP to fix this image? And why do you have to pay so much for the camera and still be expected to correct for its defects through PP?

If I were him, I sure wouldn't submit this photo to the client. I can't see how he can demand any payment for it.

 

[David Kwok]

If you don't worry about detail...then why do you need to buy a 21 MP, full-frame camera?? Unless people are doing seriously large prints there aren't too many compelling reasons for a HUGE, high MP full-frame camera's "detail."

If you don't need big prints...or serious cropping...you don't need that kind of detail and you don't need a 5DII. If you only take photos in bright daylight and only print postcard-sized photos, a good P&S like the LX3 will give photos that are almost as good as those taken with a DSLR.

Whether you need to pixel-peep or not really depends on the photo. Take this example:-

This is a crop from a image taken by a professional who was paid to take photos of the lights in a hotel. I am sure you don't have to "pixel-peep" to see the problem. If you are in his shoes, would you be disappointed and would you dare to submit such a photo? How much time do you have to spend in PP to fix this image? And why do you have to pay so much for the camera and still be expected to correct for its defects through PP?

When a camera of this calibre fails to capture effectively the same image elements that previous cameras capture WITHOUT defect...there's a problem...and it should not be minimized or dismissed.

OMG!!!! This is bad!!!! Canon ought to be canned for such quality of work! The bad dots are consistent at the peak of highlights. Doesn't coincide with what I feel previously. If you notice at all the bright spots (near white), at the top of the bright spot will definitely have a black dot. Seems like some colour clipping issue, this ought to be brought into CSC for a good explanation.

 

[mutabor]

So I got my 5D Mk2 today. I don't really care about the black dot problem. I shoot fashion shoots most of the time, so it shouldn't affect me much.

I took a few test photos of a model using a strobe as the light source. The black dot could be seen when looking at the catch light in the model's eyes. I was shooting at ISO100, RAW mode. But you will only see it at 200% and if you are really know what you are looking for. So again, this not going to be an issue for me. Just want to share my finding with extreme pixel peepers

 

[surefire]

here's what the black spots look like in a video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFaZXYhHrUI

 

[Rayrider]

Firstly, thanks for posting some great photos.


Secondly, I hope you won't be disappointed but the dots ARE clearly visible - you just need to know where to look.

Here's a reduced-size photo taken from your smugmug page:-

and here's a 100%-crop:-

There are spots elsewhere too but they are most noticeable in my crop, esp the bright spots on the right .

I am convinced that this is a hardware issue that affects all 5D Mk IIs.

To-date, I have yet to see a photo taken in these type of conditions (small, bright lights in dark environment at ISO 400 or higher) that do NOT exhibit the dreaded black spots.

Thank you for your posting. I am not disappointed at all. In the context of the pictures taken, I don't think the so called "black dots" will be an issue to me. I am, in fact enjoying moment of using my 5D Mk2. I am however,very amused by the interests and comments on this issue by non-Canon users

 

[David Kwok]

I share quote what I have googled regarding this issue. Seems like it's all over the net that users of 5DMkII are experiencing it.

"At iso 400 and iso 6400, with a 50/1.8 and 85/1.2L II. I took a few dozen shots, and they are easily duplicated. I then turned the settings to "Disable" for highlight tone priority, lighting optimizer and noise reduction.
No black dots."

Refer to the actual article "http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/12/canon-5d-mkii-p.html", see it temporary helps to resolve this annoying issue.

If it's just 1 pixel, still solvable, but seems like the issue is a blotch of black pixels forming small little dots. Personally feel it's show stopper, some might beg to differ then its fine. If i spend 4K and get such a camera, I will knock on CSC often and ask for resolution already.

There you go, try it and see if it works for you
Cheers

 

[CreaXion]

If you don't worry about detail...then why do you need to buy a 21 MP, full-frame camera?? Unless people are doing seriously large prints there aren't too many compelling reasons for a HUGE, high MP full-frame camera's "detail."

If you don't need big prints...or serious cropping...you don't need that kind of detail and you don't need a 5DII. If you only take photos in bright daylight and only print postcard-sized photos, a good P&S like the LX3 will give photos that are almost as good as those taken with a DSLR.

Whether you need to pixel-peep or not really depends on the photo. Take this example:-

This is a crop from a image taken by a professional who was paid to take photos of the lights in a hotel. I am sure you don't have to "pixel-peep" to see the problem. If you are in his shoes, would you be disappointed and would you dare to submit such a photo? How much time do you have to spend in PP to fix this image? And why do you have to pay so much for the camera and still be expected to correct for its defects through PP?

When a camera of this calibre fails to capture effectively the same image elements that previous cameras capture WITHOUT defect...there's a problem...and it should not be minimized or dismissed.

I am not saying that the problem needs not be addressed by Canon. What I am trying to say is that the problem need not be so magnified until like it is a super big problem either. As one forumer said that the problem has been there since the 1D series and many professionals are still using the camera.

There are many reasons why professionals want a full frame camera and there are also many types of photographer having different specialisation. As Mutubor pointed out, he shoots fashion and unless u zoom it to 200%, u won't see it.

Professionals get the full frame cameras for different reasons. The biggest reason if I were to get is because of the perspective. The perspective of a cropped camera and the perspective of the full frame is entirely different. Try mounting the fisheye lens or a prime lens would give you a totally different perspective.

Noise control would be one of the biggest consideration.

As to the comparison of using a PNS and a DSLR in broad daylight, there are also many things that DSLR can do in broad daylight which PNS cannot do irregardless of 4R or big prints.

As to the picture of the chandalier, I am not sure how the whole pic looks like but 1 thing for sure, I would never submit a composition of a picture in that manner. I would rather comment on a picture that is seen as a whole rather than a crop. And I also dun think that the photographer who has taken this photo will submit to his client this type of composition

 

[surefire]

I am not saying that the problem needs not be addressed by Canon. What I am trying to say is that the problem need not be so magnified until like it is a super big problem either. As one forumer said that the problem has been there since the 1D series and many professionals are still using the camera.

There are many reasons why professionals want a full frame camera and there are also many types of photographer having different specialisation. As Mutubor pointed out, he shoots fashion and unless u zoom it to 200%, u won't see it.

Professionals get the full frame cameras for different reasons. The biggest reason if I were to get is because of the perspective. The perspective of a cropped camera and the perspective of the full frame is entirely different. Try mounting the fisheye lens or a prime lens would give you a totally different perspective.

Noise control would be one of the biggest consideration.

As to the comparison of using a PNS and a DSLR in broad daylight, there are also many things that DSLR can do in broad daylight which PNS cannot do irregardless of 4R or big prints.

As to the picture of the chandalier, I am not sure how the whole pic looks like but 1 thing for sure, I would never submit a composition of a picture in that manner. I would rather comment on a picture that is seen as a whole rather than a crop. And I also dun think that the photographer who has taken this photo will submit to his client this type of composition

Actually, nobody, including me, is trying to magnify the problem! The OP (or TS) asked if there was really a black spots issue and I responded objectively with samples after doing my research on the net. For those who could not see the black spots, I have helped to point them out so that they know if their camera has the same issue.

Unlike fanboys who brush away the whole thing as making a mountain out of a molehill, I have not made any all-encompassing statement. Instead, I have always stated that, whether this is an issue or not depends on what you shoot. You can't speak for everyone based on your own perspective.

To someone who does a lot of night shots, it may be a deal killer. To others it may not matter at all. To 50% of the potential buyers of this camera, this issue is of concern enough to make them defer their purchase - see the poll thread.

 

[Rayrider]

Professionals get the full frame cameras for different reasons. The biggest reason if I were to get is because of the perspective. The perspective of a cropped camera and the perspective of the full frame is entirely different. Try mounting the fisheye lens or a prime lens would give you a totally different perspective.

I am not a professional but I totally agreed with your statement above.:thumbsup: It is the main reason I changed to the 5D Mk2. The 1DsMk3 is out of my reach :embrass:

 

[surefire]

I am however,very amused by the interests and comments on this issue by non-Canon users

glad you continue to enjoy using your camera.

This matter of my not owning a Canon seems to keep cropping up. Like I explained earlier, I may not have a Canon DSLR (wrong to say that I am not a Canon user because my first digital camera was a Canon S20 and I still have Canon compacts - maybe I need to include those in my sig!) right now but it doesn't mean that I have no interest in getting a Canon FF. Nikon is ahead in APS-C lenses but for FF, my opinion is that Canon still has the better choice of glass (cheaper too!). If Nikon can come out with a 21-24MP D700x for the same price as the MkII, it would be a tougher decision for me but it looks like this will not happen with the D3x selling at US$8,000! So, atm, the 5D MkII looks like a good candidate, provided they can come clean and sort out this issue.

 

[doodah]

Your posts, on the other hand, adds no value at all and detracts from this thread like the ramblings of a drunk detracts from an intelligent conversation.

Wow, I did not realize that non-stop whining constitutes an intelligent conversation. :bsmilie:

Leave this thread to others who actually have intention of getting this camera and go back to your 450D.

Why not? But so can you to your D300.

 

[surefire]

Wow, I did not realize that non-stop whining constitutes an intelligent conversation. :bsmilie:

If you cannot understand a simile then I am wasting my time replying to you. Come back when you have finished your education.

 

[Kit]

To someone who does a lot of night shots, it may be a deal killer. To others it may not matter at all. To 50% of the potential buyers of this camera, this issue is of concern enough to make them defer their purchase - see the poll thread.

I guess you are still too green here to realise that these polls tell you nothing at all...

 

[doodah]

If you cannot understand a simile then I am wasting my time replying to you. Come back when you have finished your education.

Well then, if your constant whining is neither useful nor intelligent, then anyone can add anything to the thread and it should not make any difference whatsoever. :bsmilie: