ZI 28mm Biogon
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Actually it is normal in a business to want to make profit.
No apologies required for wanting to profit from enterprise.
Except for non-profit organisations that exist for other aims, say e.g. Oxfam.
So in fact it is Kobayashi's duty to make profits to placate his company's shareholders.
The subject here is not whether Leica is better than CV.
Which we will leave to users to decide.
The point is why not name the cameras 'Cosina' since they were made by Cosina.
Interestingly way back, Nikon manufactured rangefinders and they had enough financial muscle to buy over a German company, then name their rangefinder with a Germanic sounding name.
But they did not.
Nikon's rangefinders are justly famous and fetch premium prices.
Repair shop owner told me they are very well made with fine craftsmanship.
These repairers open up the camera and see beyond the cosmetic skin.
Well, in late 1990's Cosina must have done a serious market study and concluded that if they did the same (i.e. follow Nikon example to name their RF after the company), it is practically commercial suicide.
Suppose most consumers will not buy if they named it 'Cosina'.
I guess Cosina does not have the same confidence and manufacturing finesse as Nikon. Which is a pity. I quite like Cosina and got some Cosina lenses.
Where is a company's sense of self worth? If they have to pretend to be somebody else.
So what is in a name? plenty.
It is a marketing game.
Give the consumers what they want. Something traditional, some Germanic sounding name. Oh yes, there is some China product named "Stenheiser". Guess this marketing trick is catching on.
Perhaps Cosina's RF are not made to same high levels of craftsmanship as Nikon's past RFs. Someone in CS said the CV RF can go out of alignment?!
This is in a relatively new camera?
But as already pointed out by YOL925, Kobayashi gave RFs new life by trying.
He has credit for that.
It is interesting that the major players Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Minolta did not do so. they must have decided it was not wise to remake RFs now.
Knowing the Japanese attention to detail, this was after very careful studies.
They are STILL keeping away from it.
except for a short remake by Nikon of a limited edition RF.
No apologies required for wanting to profit from enterprise.
Except for non-profit organisations that exist for other aims, say e.g. Oxfam.
So in fact it is Kobayashi's duty to make profits to placate his company's shareholders.
The subject here is not whether Leica is better than CV.
Which we will leave to users to decide.
The point is why not name the cameras 'Cosina' since they were made by Cosina.
Interestingly way back, Nikon manufactured rangefinders and they had enough financial muscle to buy over a German company, then name their rangefinder with a Germanic sounding name.
But they did not.
Nikon's rangefinders are justly famous and fetch premium prices.
Repair shop owner told me they are very well made with fine craftsmanship.
These repairers open up the camera and see beyond the cosmetic skin.
Well, in late 1990's Cosina must have done a serious market study and concluded that if they did the same (i.e. follow Nikon example to name their RF after the company), it is practically commercial suicide.
Suppose most consumers will not buy if they named it 'Cosina'.
I guess Cosina does not have the same confidence and manufacturing finesse as Nikon. Which is a pity. I quite like Cosina and got some Cosina lenses.
Where is a company's sense of self worth? If they have to pretend to be somebody else.
So what is in a name? plenty.
It is a marketing game.
Give the consumers what they want. Something traditional, some Germanic sounding name. Oh yes, there is some China product named "Stenheiser". Guess this marketing trick is catching on.
Perhaps Cosina's RF are not made to same high levels of craftsmanship as Nikon's past RFs. Someone in CS said the CV RF can go out of alignment?!
This is in a relatively new camera?
But as already pointed out by YOL925, Kobayashi gave RFs new life by trying.
He has credit for that.
It is interesting that the major players Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Minolta did not do so. they must have decided it was not wise to remake RFs now.
Knowing the Japanese attention to detail, this was after very careful studies.
They are STILL keeping away from it.
except for a short remake by Nikon of a limited edition RF.
fuwen
Senior Member
Hi! Ricohflex, since Zeiss approached Cosina to make a camera for them ( I believe the Zeiss Ikon - Cosina is not a rebadged R3A/R2A ), I thought it would be fair for the camera to be named Zeiss Ikon rather than Cosina. As for the lenses, it appears quite clear to me that they are designed by Zeiss so should be named Zeiss lens then.
Not like Voigtlander that Cosina actually designed and built the cameras and lenses but they would rather brand them as Voigtlander. Anyway they spent money bought the rights to use the Voigtlander brand they have to use it otherwise waste of money.
Not like Voigtlander that Cosina actually designed and built the cameras and lenses but they would rather brand them as Voigtlander. Anyway they spent money bought the rights to use the Voigtlander brand they have to use it otherwise waste of money.
Hi
Fuwen
Yes it is just business. Certainly if they paid for the rights, they should use it. Was just admiring Nikon for being gung-ho and they did very well indeed with their RF.
Hey, now that Rollei made HFT lenses available, you can try out. 40mm and 80mm.
Oh, I just got a XF quite cheap and mint fixed Sonnar lens.
And guess what, a printed actual BC-1 manual.
Am liking the CZ Jena lens. Cheap and very good.
Fuwen
Yes it is just business. Certainly if they paid for the rights, they should use it. Was just admiring Nikon for being gung-ho and they did very well indeed with their RF.
Hey, now that Rollei made HFT lenses available, you can try out. 40mm and 80mm.
Oh, I just got a XF quite cheap and mint fixed Sonnar lens.
And guess what, a printed actual BC-1 manual.
Am liking the CZ Jena lens. Cheap and very good.
i believe the CV lenses were based on the original voigtlander MF lens designs. As for nikon, it has marked itself differently over the years. I believe they made the tower cameras that was sold in the states, etc.
The nikon RFs are not everything people claim them to be. Honestly, they are a pain to use and are not as well built as leicas for the price they demand. Most RF USERS will point out they are definitely not value for money. The leica M was way ahead of the nikon back then, and still is now. They make good collectors though, as do most cameras that are no longer in production or are in limited production.
Just between u and me, i'd rather pick a bessa R over a nikon S.
The nikon RFs are not everything people claim them to be. Honestly, they are a pain to use and are not as well built as leicas for the price they demand. Most RF USERS will point out they are definitely not value for money. The leica M was way ahead of the nikon back then, and still is now. They make good collectors though, as do most cameras that are no longer in production or are in limited production.
Just between u and me, i'd rather pick a bessa R over a nikon S.
I like how one member from Rangefinderforum put across his opinion on Zeiss Ikon bashing.
No Paul, these hate attacks will kill nothing excepted maybe some of those who started them, could be they simply burst from their extreme blood pressure.
I read this crap too "rebadged cossies" was one of the things they said about the lenses and a lot more of such a derisive nonsense. That's just the style of play many members prefer at Pnet.
To understand where this "loaded " style of communication comes from you must remember that there are some who spent their very last penny and a bit more on Leica gear just not only to own the "best" stuff , no, more important to own the "right stuff" !
"Right" means in this context making them belong to the (in their own opinion)
right group of people. In other words these cameras are an important part of their social status.
Taking photographs with that gear does not play a role at all as I had to learn. I've seen results of this kind of folks which are so poorely done and so badly scanned that one cannot believe that somebody really dares to post such a crap in a public gallery.
How come ? The pics are just to prove he still owns the tool and keeps it running.
As we all know people are very sensitive if their (presumed) social status seems to get damnaged. The ZI line could have the potential to perform on par with Leica , without any restriction, for less money.
That would mean they do NOT own the best or the right tool anymore , imagine what a damnage that is for those bed-wetting stuffed shirts. :bang:
This is where that hate comes from, which makes them throw dirt on a product before they have seen it or tried it out personally.
Recently I read: "The Critique says more about the Critic than about the item it aimes to". True indeed, you just have to read carefully to hear that howling sound of pain behind the words. Enjoy it !
Best,
Bertram
Paul T. said:
No Paul, these hate attacks will kill nothing excepted maybe some of those who started them, could be they simply burst from their extreme blood pressure.
I read this crap too "rebadged cossies" was one of the things they said about the lenses and a lot more of such a derisive nonsense. That's just the style of play many members prefer at Pnet.
To understand where this "loaded " style of communication comes from you must remember that there are some who spent their very last penny and a bit more on Leica gear just not only to own the "best" stuff , no, more important to own the "right stuff" !
"Right" means in this context making them belong to the (in their own opinion)
right group of people. In other words these cameras are an important part of their social status.
Taking photographs with that gear does not play a role at all as I had to learn. I've seen results of this kind of folks which are so poorely done and so badly scanned that one cannot believe that somebody really dares to post such a crap in a public gallery.
How come ? The pics are just to prove he still owns the tool and keeps it running.
As we all know people are very sensitive if their (presumed) social status seems to get damnaged. The ZI line could have the potential to perform on par with Leica , without any restriction, for less money.
That would mean they do NOT own the best or the right tool anymore , imagine what a damnage that is for those bed-wetting stuffed shirts. :bang:
This is where that hate comes from, which makes them throw dirt on a product before they have seen it or tried it out personally.
Recently I read: "The Critique says more about the Critic than about the item it aimes to". True indeed, you just have to read carefully to hear that howling sound of pain behind the words. Enjoy it !
Best,
Bertram
actually s'pore is so small.
qty of people who have photog as a hobby is smaller
qty of people within that grp; and who choose to use rangefinder is even smaller.
qty of people within that sub grp; and who consider to choose any particular brand is even smaller.
(say, e.g. 500 users)
if we go to Cosina Inc and tell Kobayashi and his Board that because of what s'pore users think (say, in these CS forums), it will affect their Zeiss Ikon sales tremendously (either positively or negatively)......
they will have a good laugh. :sweatsm: :bsmilie:
we s'pore photogs are extremely insignificant.
their real market is China, USA, Europe, Japan.
anyway, I think it was made clear the discussion is not about which cam brand is "better". It was about the businessman entrepreneur's business model and marketing saavy.
But as always, s'pore photogs are very emotionally attached to their cams and react surprisingly in discussions.
In such cases, better for all to cool off.
qty of people who have photog as a hobby is smaller
qty of people within that grp; and who choose to use rangefinder is even smaller.
qty of people within that sub grp; and who consider to choose any particular brand is even smaller.
(say, e.g. 500 users)
if we go to Cosina Inc and tell Kobayashi and his Board that because of what s'pore users think (say, in these CS forums), it will affect their Zeiss Ikon sales tremendously (either positively or negatively)......
they will have a good laugh. :sweatsm: :bsmilie:
we s'pore photogs are extremely insignificant.
their real market is China, USA, Europe, Japan.
anyway, I think it was made clear the discussion is not about which cam brand is "better". It was about the businessman entrepreneur's business model and marketing saavy.
But as always, s'pore photogs are very emotionally attached to their cams and react surprisingly in discussions.
In such cases, better for all to cool off.
Derrick said:
I have the 28mm summicron. To me, no other 28 can ever replace it. It's the best 28mm lens in the world - so small, fits in pocket, wide and fast to shoot the world with! :heart:
If you or anyone wants to try out the 28mm summicron, I'll be happy to meet up with u guys
ricohflex said:
It is indeed an F2 lens with an aspheric element. The cool thing is this new Summicron is actually a little SHORTER than then Elmarit, aka smaller! Though it does weigh 10 grams more.....
It has all the characteristic signatures of the new Leica ASPH designs - extremely crispy sharp. This may or may not be a good thing, depending on whether u come from the "3D, romantic, great bokeh look" or the "sharp, contrasty, bokeh is secondary" schools of thought
Hi
I think the Leica world owes a great debt to Mr K. and company at Cosina for raising the profile of the rangefinder scene with their immensely interesting and innovative products. Coming up with affordable, high quality rangefinder products that complement the expensive M stable of lenses and bodies is a stroke of genius.
Someone mentioned Mr K. is only interested in making money. I wish Leica was, too. If so, they would not have been in the dire financial straits that they are now. Instead, they have sat on their laurels and brand image for far too long, milking the collector market and catering only to the very small niche pool of customers without sparing a thought on expanding product demand to the next generation of photog.
If I am going to shoot rangefinders exclusively (and that's not a remote possibility, given I cannot find a wide angle lens in the Canon stable that excites me), I'll be sending Dr Joseph Yao in Hong Kong my credit card number for a number of Cosina products to backup my current stable of Leica M equipment.
Starting with the very interesting RD-1....
I think the Leica world owes a great debt to Mr K. and company at Cosina for raising the profile of the rangefinder scene with their immensely interesting and innovative products. Coming up with affordable, high quality rangefinder products that complement the expensive M stable of lenses and bodies is a stroke of genius.
Someone mentioned Mr K. is only interested in making money. I wish Leica was, too. If so, they would not have been in the dire financial straits that they are now. Instead, they have sat on their laurels and brand image for far too long, milking the collector market and catering only to the very small niche pool of customers without sparing a thought on expanding product demand to the next generation of photog.
If I am going to shoot rangefinders exclusively (and that's not a remote possibility, given I cannot find a wide angle lens in the Canon stable that excites me), I'll be sending Dr Joseph Yao in Hong Kong my credit card number for a number of Cosina products to backup my current stable of Leica M equipment.
Starting with the very interesting RD-1....
Red Dawn said:If I am going to shoot rangefinders exclusively (and that's not a remote possibility, given I cannot find a wide angle lens in the Canon stable that excites me), I'll be sending Dr Joseph Yao in Hong Kong my credit card number for a number of Cosina products to backup my current stable of Leica M equipment.
Starting with the very interesting RD-1....
You and I are in the same boat. The closest I got to a perfect Canon wide angle is a Nikkor 17-35/2.8D AF-S mounted via an adapter to my 1D. The EF 20-35/2.8L is about the next closest thing to a pure Canon WA.
Since when did Joseph start accepting credit cards? The only thing which stops me from ordering more often from him is the hassle of going to the bank to get a wire transfer... hmm, now with the CC option.
R-D1... yummy. Make sure he checks it out thoroughly before accepting it on your behalf. Don't want a problematic unit.
Red Dawn said:28mm for ur digital? u've got the RD-1 already???
Yah, got it from Joseph when i was passing through HK. I'm happy with it. Somehow i got serial number 000008 which is pretty cool. The main thing that i have to get used to is basically the 1.5x crop factor.
Met YOL this morning to try out a few 28mms and a 24mm on the camera. Have not really had time to have a good look through the test files but briefly looking at them the 28 cron is really nice. It's way over my budget new at the moment. Might just eventually get the Biogon, with the ISO switching on the fly, the f2.8 does not really bother me all that much.
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