Where are we heading now?

[musicpls]

In any industry, the strong and competent business will survive. Unless a business evolve and innovate, its complacency will bring it to its ruins. Singpost did not fetter out and become obsolete when the mails being delivered dropped drastically due to advent of emails. It created more products, diversified and yet still handling mails. Public phones do not become obsolete due to the influx of cheap mobile phones and plans as well as VOIP, the operators target a different segment of the market - foreigners. And you even see new operators.

I for one, think that the photography industry will get better as more products and services surface.

Couldn't agree more about what u have written. It's in the history, only the strongest and fittest survive. Business will only survive if it receptive and accept change is the only constant, this applies to photography business.

Infact with the affordablility of new gear, more talent are surfaced as a result. I am constantly amazed by some photograph taken by teenage. So for now if you want to stay in the photography business, you have to be not just good but exceptionally good.

 

[Kit]

Couldn't agree more about what u have written. It's in the history, only the strongest and fittest survive. Business will only survive if it receptive and accept change is the only constant, this applies to photography business.

Infact with the affordablility of new gear, more talent are surfaced as a result. I am constantly amazed by some photograph taken by teenage. So for now if you want to stay in the photography business, you have to be not just good but exceptionally good.

By saying exceptionally good, I take it that you meant skills in taking photos? Unfortunately, that's only a pre-requisite(some don't have it though) and is not enough for you to stay in the business.....

 

[musicpls]

By saying exceptionally good, I take it that you meant skills in taking photos? Unfortunately, that's only a pre-requisite(some don't have it though) and is not enough for you to stay in the business.....

Well, at least you have to be really good in at least one aspect to be in business. It could be either the creativity or the way you run the business, some luck can help too but it's those who knows how to make use of it will prospers.

 

[Kit]

Well, at least you have to be really good in at least one aspect to be in business. It could be either the creativity or the way you run the business, some luck can help too but it's those who knows how to make use of it will prospers.

Hmmm... actually no. If you can't run a business, you can't survive no matter how good you are taking photos. When you are doing it for a living, survival comes before everything, including taking photos.

 

[musicpls]

Hmmm... actually no. If you can't run a business, you can't survive no matter how good you are taking photos. When you are doing it for a living, survival comes before everything, including taking photos.

In a way yes and no, if you are really good in what you do... business will come to you too. In reality, I do agree survival does come first but in particular to photography business, without the least passion, can this business be even sustain is in question.

 

[Kit]

In a way yes and no, if you are really good in what you do... business will come to you too. In reality, I do agree survival does come first but in particular to photography business, without the least passion, can this business be even sustain is in question.

:bsmilie::bsmilie::bsmilie:

 

[musicpls]

:bsmilie::bsmilie::bsmilie:

so what this means? I guess you don't agree to what I have wrote.

Probably it never occur to you passion and talent can be the drive behind the actions to determine a successful business, there is no absolute right or wrong methodology in running a business.

 

[Kit]

so what this means? I guess you don't agree to what I have wrote.

Probably it never occur to you passion and talent can be the drive behind the actions to determine a successful business, there is no absolute right or wrong methodology in running a business.

Good on you!!:bsmilie::bsmilie:

 

[Kit]

so what this means? I guess you don't agree to what I have wrote.

Probably it never occur to you passion and talent can be the drive behind the actions to determine a successful business, there is no absolute right or wrong methodology in running a business.

and with that I guess you haven't been told.....

"Your service exceeds our expectations but we can't afford to pay you. Sorry....."

 

[musicpls]

and with that I guess you haven't been told.....

"Your service exceeds our expectations but we can't afford to pay you. Sorry....."

That depends on how much is the expectation n you think your service is worth. I get that all the time as a freelance photographer, just move on.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I am not implying business should be run by talent alone n vice versa. But in photography business, it's imperative to have at least some passion and talent to even want to start the business, because it will be shown in the deliverable.

I cannot comment on how a business should be run as everyone has to find their own niche. But in this line, if the passion dies completely, the business will not prosper. Imagine a soulless musician want to make it big in the music industry...

I have watched the DVD by Yervant and Joe Buissink on wedding photography, beside the marketing side, you can see how much they enjoy photography even after all those years in the line and it shown in the photos. So i think it good to have a balance of talent, passion and business mind to stay on track.

 

[Kit]

Passion has to be sustained..... one way or the other.....

 

[Jed]

But not everyone chucks their wedding albums aside as you seem to imply - if not, then I apologise.

Got your hard hat? Or maybe the pink name helps

You're not accusing kiwi2 of assuming that everyone chucks their wedding albums aside are you? Never! He is so against assumptions he would never be caught dead doing that

As he says, next time better check with him first. As they say, confirm must confirm ^.^

Oh man, let's not start the usual CS tit-for-tat. If you're not sure what I'm saying, it's better to confirm than assume.

Another assumption on your part. Sigh... no wonder CS will always be CS because of people like you who like to assume and then a large part of posts is based on arguing for the sake of it.

 

[Winsonapm]

Where are we heading now? Commercial or Wedding? On the positive note, the standard had improved with prices increased.

For Wedding market, most of the feedbacks were fairly negative and it should be anyway.
If you put yourself in the Bridal shop’s position and you’ll be cursing even louder: “giving back hi-res softcopies!” Majority of the consumers buy from Bridal shop packages with gowns and suit thrown in. Are they losing market share? You bet.

$1K, $2K & $3K and above market, or I called it the C, B, A market. Most fulltime Pros cannot survive in the sub $1K “C” market, it’s filled with weekend warriors and lowballers. If you are charging $1K or below, you would be struggling. The competition is in the $2K “B” market and up. If any meaningful discussion is to be sustained in this thread, it had to be in the Pro market. We’ll always argue about “newcomers” whom are inevitable. Every Pro starts low at some point, don't they?:think:

We’ve 5 polytechnics churning out about 1000 diploma holders every year with 3 years of training in photography, graphic design, etc. . Not all will be photographers, but some will. And they are very good, I’ve trained some of them. What about those Degree holders from Journalism, Arts, etc,.? What they lacked are experience and business sense. Pros, these are the kids that you should be worried about in 5 years.:sweat:

 

[Chris Lim]

I understand where some of you are coming from. But as i have mentioned, i have started this tread to serve as a useful and insightful thread for everyone who is interested in the industry to read. If some of the point outs are really against some of your own beliefs, perhaps it would be good if you could just help by replying diplomatically rather then start a bickering war within the thread. Please. thank you.

 

[Chris Lim]

Where are we heading now? Commercial or Wedding? On the positive note, the standard had improved with prices increased.

For Wedding market, most of the feedbacks were fairly negative and it should be anyway.
If you put yourself in the Bridal shop’s position and you’ll be cursing even louder: “giving back hi-res softcopies!” Majority of the consumers buy from Bridal shop packages with gowns and suit thrown in. Are they losing market share? You bet.

$1K, $2K & $3K and above market, or I called it the C, B, A market. Most fulltime Pros cannot survive in the sub $1K “C” market, it’s filled with weekend warriors and lowballers. If you are charging $1K or below, you would be struggling. The competition is in the $2K “B” market and up. If any meaningful discussion is to be sustained in this thread, it had to be in the Pro market. We’ll always argue about “newcomers” whom are inevitable. Every Pro starts low at some point, don't they?:think:

We’ve 5 polytechnics churning out about 1000 diploma holders every year, 3 years training in photography, graphic design, etc. . Not all will be photographers, but some will. And they are very good, I’ve trained some of them. What about those Degree holders from Journalism, Arts, etc,.? What they lacked are experience and business sense. Pros, theses are the kids that you should be worried about in 5 years.:sweat:

i dun really see where you're coming from. Because i think the past 5 pages of this thread have already surpassed the stage and arguments where "pros are blaming new comers" for the lack of work or loss of jobs. It has already been established that there are people at every level who are "not playing fair" and education is and should be shared with everyone within the industry to provide for a better understanding on what is a "guided" way of starting out in this business, as well as a very healthy on going about how sharings can be done.

Factors such as bridal shops and other areas of service providers have their own problems to deal with. So maybe it'll be good to leave them out of the picture for this.

Actually, if its any possible at all, perhaps you could have Matthew to give us some of his insights as well? Thanks

 

[Winsonapm]

i dun really see where you're coming from. Because i think the past 5 pages of this thread have already surpassed the stage and arguments where "pros are blaming new comers" for the lack of work or loss of jobs. It has already been established that there are people at every level who are "not playing fair" and education is and should be shared with everyone within the industry to provide for a better understanding on what is a "guided" way of starting out in this business, as well as a very healthy on going about how sharings can be done.

Factors such as bridal shops and other areas of service providers have their own problems to deal with. So maybe it'll be good to leave them out of the picture for this.

Actually, if its any possible at all, perhaps you could have Matthew to give us some of his insights as well? Thanks

I think the Bridal shop is very much part of the wedding market, perhaps 75% or more (unsure). It’s fair to leave it out of this thread. I think Mat does not has the time to gossip in CS, but I’ll ask him for an official statement on the WPAS sticky.

I’m also trying to highlight that not all part-timers are GWC, most are trained or have some experience in event & wedding photography. More “qualified” photographers would be joining the competition.

In my business, I’ve met a lot of wannabes and start-ups. Most are ignorance, hopeful and hungry. My advice to them had always been “charging right”, separate hourly rates and printed services. Do not offer package! Where is the money? Some are almost doing it for free, I think. Most are doing for “friends”, portfolio, experience, etc.
I’m also critical on their layouts and presentations, some of the works for hire books are “advise” to improve. Most do improve, but are not comparable to the Pros. It’s “C” market standard and pricing. Over time and exposure, they will be charging more. The pressure will be on the $1K to $1.5K market.

Some pop in for coffee and free advice, some disappeared. I’m always happy to offer unsolicited advise to wannabes and start-ups, so they can survive and come back to us for more printing.:bsmilie:

 

[Jed]

I understand where some of you are coming from. But as i have mentioned, i have started this tread to serve as a useful and insightful thread for everyone who is interested in the industry to read. If some of the point outs are really against some of your own beliefs, perhaps it would be good if you could just help by replying diplomatically rather then start a bickering war within the thread. Please. thank you.

Sorry I'll shut up now >.<

 

[Winsonapm]

Since you mostly target wedding photography, you must've known that WPN conducted a workshop partly addressing business issues with wedding photography in Singapore. Gabriel Mendes also did a 3-day workshop on the business of wedding photography. Baby steps perhaps, but steps nonetheless. I'm guessing these are not good enough for you? You'd also know that many of the overseas pros who are established do not conduct business/shooting type courses in their own area - they usually do so outside of their area. Not all, but most are like that.

Pull this off WPAS website: http://www.wpas.org.sg/Seminar.pdf
Interesting turnout, sharing, networking and great feedbacks. More of these activities will upgrade the industry standards.

 

[Yatlapball]

One may be there, but may not see it. One may see it, but may not take it. One may take it, but not do it justice.

A professional gets himself there, sees it, takes it, and does it justice.

 

[Chris Lim]

I think the Bridal shop is very much part of the wedding market, perhaps 75% or more (unsure). It’s fair to leave it out of this thread. I think Mat does not has the time to gossip in CS, but I’ll ask him for an official statement on the WPAS sticky.

I have not disagreed that bridal shops are not part of the wedding industry, or play a lesser part. What i am saying is. This thread is talking quite specifically about a topic which is the Photography industry in Singapore with people in different areas of photography sharing what they have gone through. And it has already progressed beyond the categorizing of new comers are the ones spoiling the industry. It really makes me feel sad that you feel that this is gossip as well because, all the valuable insights from everyone here has really been very useful and i'm sure will allow the new coming interest to gain knowledge that they have many many issues to face at all levels from starting to making it to the top.

I’m also trying to highlight that not all part-timers are GWC, most are trained or have some experience in event & wedding photography. More “qualified” photographers would be joining the competition.

We have not termed part-timers as GWCs, in fact i personally feel that the term GWC is quite distasteful because even i myself was once a "GWC". And it is very true that some do have a certain background in the genre of photography they are doing. But the question here has been all along, "Are they doing it right?" "Are they gaining proper insights from their seniors in the industry?" "Do they know why they are affecting the industry?" "Do they know what they are getting themselves into for the long run?"....etc and not just "OH NO! more GWC is gonna take away my jobs!"

In my business, I’ve met a lot of wannabes and start-ups. Most are ignorance, hopeful and hungry. My advice to them had always been “charging right”, separate hourly rates and printed services. Do not offer package! Where is the money? Some are almost doing it for free, I think. Most are doing for “friends”, portfolio, experience, etc.
I’m also critical on their layouts and presentations, some of the works for hire books are “advise” to improve. Most do improve, but are not comparable to the Pros. It’s “C” market standard and pricing. Over time and exposure, they will be charging more. The pressure will be on the $1K to $1.5K market.

It in inevitable to prevent the new comers market from moving up the ranks. But Issues at the top needs to be resolved as well. If the top teal don't move, how is the bottom teal going to move up or even survive? Good that you have been providing some form of guidance to the ppl wanting to come in. But i don't know if its a good idea to motivate them with the question "Where is the money?". There is no wrong in offering packages, alot of us do, even myself. Packages can be used as a marketing tool and business tactic depending on the business model that we are using for our services.

Some pop in for coffee and free advice, some disappeared. I’m always happy to offer unsolicited advise to wannabes and start-ups, so they can survive and come back to us for more printing.:bsmilie:

i'm happy once again that you are offering advise to "wannabes and start-ups" but once again i dunno if its right to do it so they can survive and come back to you for more printing in turn providing you with more business. Because Yet again, this is not the issue we are talking about at all since page one.