WHATS NEXT FOR M43, after Olympus, what future is left?

[ricohflex]

The cold shoe in some other cameras are for allowing attachment of high-quality microphones and lighting setups to the camera.
That is, when the camera is optimized for video. This presumes the camera body already has built-in sockets for various devices to be plugged in via cables.
Because the cold shoe has none.

Panasonic Lumix cannot make up its mind whether S9 is primarily a Video camera or a Still photo camera.
Thus the messy debacle.

But having said that, for some other camera at a higher price point, the manufacturer does provide multi-function (intelligent contacts + power) shoes in their video camera body.
For example Canon C400. Which has 2.

The physical smallness and lightness of the S9 body also makes you question how much accessory equipment you can/want to attach to it.

 

[one eye jack]

The physical smallness and lightness of the S9 body also makes you question how much accessory equipment you can/want to attach to it.

@ricohflex , you have answered yourself. As @Pitachu pointed out, you are not comparing apples to apples. C400 is over $10k. Panasonic interview had explained it's rationale to why it made the decision to use fullframe and that is to differentiate camera from smartphone. If people wanted a competent video centric camera then they would choose GH7 which just cost more than S9 but with a much bulkier body. Your train of thought is not coherent. Seriously other people would have already know that you simply dislike m43 but your arguments are not swaying people so you might as well give up. Of course if you continue others would regard you as the proverbial boy who cried wolf or chicken little..sky is falling.

 

[ricohflex]

Lumix S9 creators have made mistakes.
I think mostly due to an unclear objective. They do not know what they want to achieve.
Partly due to cost constraints - they want to keep production costs under a fixed limit.
It is normal for camera manufacturers to make mistakes.
The difference is how the manufacturer responds to rectify those mistakes.
Sony reacted very quickly to improve their original Sony A7 with a rapid succession of better models.
Thereby increasing their market share.
Monitor how Panasonic Lumix handles this.
The worst is for Panasonic to deny there is a problem. And insist everything is wonderful.
No improvement for next 10 years.
{ See? Our ambassadors say this is the best thing since sliced bread. }
Panasonic paid to fly more than 100 YouTubers and professional filmmakers to Japan in a marketing tsunami.
Of course Panasonic expects most of them to say only good things about the S9. As a Quid Pro Quo.
That was the fatal error made by Olympus Camera Division - which led to their demise.
Some people will still buy S9.
The question is how many and for how long S9 remains attractive to prospective buyers.
It can all go down south if many users report frustrating experiences and condemn the product.
So wait and see.

This needs to be repeated.
The S9 Exterior Look is bad when compared to a Fuji X 100 VI.
The look of X 100 VI attracts potential customers to buy it.
Camera can be a fashion statement to youngsters.
To them the specifications of the camera are secondary.

Credit for photo.
{ tomsguide.com }

{ Credit for photo : photographyblog.com }

{ Credit for photo : amateurphotographer.com }

 

[Pitachu]

Panasonic did a okay job moving from M43 to Full Frame with the L-Mount (which Leica hinted it regretted as it is not as easy to sell L-Mounts cameras compared to its Q & M series). However, we can see that Panasonic did quite a feeble job trying to come out with a Compact version of Full Frame (S9) like Sony A7C series and EV-E1, that can mount Full Frame lenses.

But Sony is a 17 Trillion Yen company while Panasonic is only a 3.2 Trillion Yen company (6 times smaller) plus Sony have access to its Sensor and Lenses R&D Dept, so we cannot expect Panasonic to be able to release a product that can immediately compete with Sony, but hopefully, given time Panasonic may be able to improve the S9 like the S5 to some a more worthwhile camera.

This is the reason why Olympus stay on with M43 and does not want to move to Full Frame. Without sufficient financial and R&D support, it can actually turn into a even worse disaster. Olympus definitely have considered the possibility but it decided to focus on serving its nature and wildlife users by directing its R&D on the OM-1 & the 150-400 lenses and the 90mm Macro (which so far all the users love) before selling it to OMDS.

If Olympus venture into Full Frame, it could end up coming out with something like the S9 which no one loves. I think OMDS next project should look into an updated version of the Pen which it knew that a lot of its users love. Plus the trend now is pointing towards smaller camera bodies with about 24mp.

Lumix S9 creators have made mistakes.

I think mostly due to an unclear objective. They do not know what they want to achieve.
Partly due to cost constraints - they want to keep production costs under a fixed limit.
It is normal for camera manufacturers to make mistakes.
The difference is how the manufacturer responds to rectify those mistakes.
Sony reacted very quickly to improve their original Sony A7 with a rapid succession of better models.
Thereby increasing their market share.
Monitor how Panasonic Lumix handles this.
The worst is for Panasonic to deny there is a problem. And insist everything is wonderful.
No improvement for next 10 years.
{ See? Our ambassadors say this is the best thing since sliced bread. }
Panasonic paid to fly more than 100 YouTubers and professional filmmakers to Japan in a marketing tsunami.
Of course Panasonic expects most of them to say only good things about the S9. As a Quid Pro Quo.
That was the fatal error made by Olympus Camera Division - which led to their demise.
Some people will still buy S9.
The question is how many and for how long S9 remains attractive to prospective buyers.
It can all go down south if many users report frustrating experiences and condemn the product.
So wait and see.

This needs to be repeated.
The S9 Exterior Look is bad when compared to a Fuji X 100 VI.
Most customers will thrash the S9 and buy the X 100 VI in a heartbeat.

 

[one eye jack]

As usual reviewers are not the real users of S9 so to make themselves relevant they have to pick on S9 lack of features when Panasonic clearly said camera is for people who use smartphone for content creation but want better image quality.

@4:50 although for similar price one can get S5iiX why get S9. Lumix is doing a good job .

Why is everyone nit picking S9 , an entry level beginner's camera when even these two cameras are not perfect? Sony Burano does not do open gate so does S5ii although S9 uses same sensor. Overall Panasonic inadvertently given people a really good price to performance ratio deal, people just don't realise it!

 

[one eye jack]

It seems my observations are correct about past m43 ambassadors needing to change their game. Observe Robin's Z5 + viltrox 85mm video Vs 16mm viltrox, when you have a pretty xmm as subject the video have more views 5.3k in only 12 days versus 5.4k views after 1 month. How, xmm swee boh? I bet this thread will cross 104k soon also.

@ricohflex , you are partly correct in your observations that they are stuck in a hole they cannot climb out of. I would not be so pessimistic because humans have freewill and their path or journey is theirs to make. Of course if they happen to read this it may give them insights and they may want to change. It's a fact change is the hardest and change is the only constant in life. This applies to you also.

OMDS has concentrated in sports and wildlife, the previous batch of ambassadors are mainly wedding and events photographers. One is still an ambassador because he also shoots video. Another 2 are not native English speakers so their messages get lost in translation so to speak . But I think unlike the one who is also a film maker, the rest do not showcase their work so it creates less buzz and excitement. Remember youtube channel is supposed to be entertaining which the film maker adds humour into his videos. Hope the ex ambassadors take the hint.

Now take the one that describes himself as the talking head, he can boast that he does work for national geographic and other publications plus he also shoots models which attract views. He is also primarily a video shooter so he is asked to showcase GH7 as can be seen from his BTS ( behind the scenes ) footage making his short movie. He has assembled his talented video friends and models plus his wife.
All this makes for an entertaining time.

 

[Pitachu]

Yes, I think Olympus imaging division had no choice at that time when the Parent company pull back all the resources when it was having a rough patch, so it did its market survey on what the market is lacking and focus on the nature and wildlife market with its OM-1, 150-400 super zoom, and the 90mm Macro.

I think Panasonic is facing the same issue now. WIth limited resources, it decided to focus on the latest "small and affordable" camera trend with the S9 and the lower end video mirrorless market with the GH7, providing features like ARRI and 32bit recording and open gate recording etc which you can only get with cameras 4 to 5 times the price. Of course those people who have spent 4 to 5 times the amount got upset and say it does not have the same ARRI feel. But they forgot the GH7 is most meant to be a secordary B-roll camera and do not need a setup 4 5to 5 times the price. It just need to make the post process easier with the same color profile.

Market demand has change and will keep changing, Manufacturers have changed or need to changed.
And of course ambassadors who are promoting a certain brand have to adapt and change as well.

It will be difficult for some ambassadors like Robin Wong to change. Although he has excellent photos on street and urban photos, his nature photos are most taken at zoos and he does not actually shoot wildlife. It is not Olympus is no longer good,
but actually no longer suitable for him. I remembered someone actually gave him an OM-1 1 year ago but I have hardly see anything much from him except that he pointed out that the AF is not as good. This was good feedback and OMDS did improve on it in the OM-1 Mark 2. I really hope Robin will continue to dissect the OM-1 and continue to show us work-arounds like what he did with the previous Olympus cameras and lenses.

It seems my observations are correct about past m43 ambassadors needing to change their game. Observe Robin's Z5 + viltrox 85mm video Vs 16mm viltrox, when you have a pretty xmm as subject the video have more views 5.3k in only 12 days versus 5.4k views after 1 month. How, xmm swee boh? I bet this thread will cross 104k soon also.

 

[Pitachu]

Looking at the efforts Panasonic put in to improve the M43 G9 to G9ii and GH6 to GH7,
and the feedback it receives on the Full Frame S9, it is highly doubtful that Panasonic is going to give up M43 soon,
as always suggested by @ricohflex LOL

 

[ricohflex]

Oh dear. Poor Robin got a fearsome scolding by Lumix.
For not buttering up to flatter the S9.
With this kind of imperious attitude by Lumix, do not expect an improved S9 Mk2 anytime soon.


He compares it with an old MFT model.

 

[Pitachu]

I am not exactly sure Panasonic intended purpose of the S9 for its audience, but maybe it is trying to create a new target market.
But I do feel Robin's complain that there is no Viewfinder on the S9. Panasonic is trying to reduce size and weight like Sony by removing the viewfinder like the Sony ZV-E1 / ZV-E10. But the ZV-E series are meant for vloggers, which Sony provided a mic for use on its hotshoe and vloggers hardly use the viewfinder. They mainly flip the articulated screen around.

But to use the S9 or any camera without a viewfinder is a pain. It is just like using the mobile phone and when the sun is behind you or at a angle behind you, it is quite difficult to compose with the screen! So the S9 will not be great for photography, just like Sony ZV-E series!

Obviously Panasonic USA has not put enough thoughts to the letter. Probably his Japanese boss screamed at him to draft a reply and he did just that

Like I say in my earlier posts, manufacturers jumping into Full Frame thinking it is the Holy Grail may not succeed.

 

[one eye jack]

@Pitachu, S9 is designed for smartphone users who want a real camera. Read my previous post about BCN interview with Panasonic.

WHATS NEXT FOR M43, after Olympus, what future is left?

OM1 mk2 high ISO.

clubsnap.com

 

[Pitachu]

I read that. I am a smartphone user, grown out of it and want a real camera. Besides the limited focal range of a small phone, my biggest pain is having no viewfinder as I find it difficult to see in bright sunlight. So why would I want to get the S9 or any other camera without a viewfinder (and a hot shoe) that is so similar to my smartphone in terms of usage. I would at least get the Fujifilm x100 series as my "real camera".

Panasonic S9 offered a Full Frame sensor (which many people who wants a compact camera don't really care), and offered ability to change lenses but does not have any worthy compact lenses to pair with it.

I would think Panasonic would have done much better if it were to upgrade its GM series with the latest M43 sensor. At least it already have lots of M43 compact lenses to pair with and some of the Pana-Leica lenses are professional quality.

Panasonic should have watch Sony more closely. When Sony introduced the A7C series and pair it with the 28-60, the image quality was really below par. But Sony reacted first and released several higher quality G lenses which are smaller and worthy. There is no point having a full frame sensor when you do not provide worthth lenses to pair with it.

@Pitachu, S9 is designed for smartphone users who want a real camera. Read my previous post about BCN interview with Panasonic.

WHATS NEXT FOR M43, after Olympus, what future is left?

OM1 mk2 high ISO.

clubsnap.com

 

[one eye jack]

@ricohflex, Panasonic will release a S9 MK2 with a viewfinder! It will be a fun camera.

Oh dear. Poor Robin got a fearsome scolding by Lumix.
For not buttering up to flatter the S9.
With this kind of imperious attitude by Lumix, do not expect an improved S9 Mk2 anytime soon.


He compares it with an old MFT model.

 

[Pitachu]

Just saw this in DPreview. "The Panasonic S9 is the first full-frame Lumix camera aimed squarely at social media content creators."
Panasonic USA should have told this to Robin and Robin was wrong to treat it as a photography camera.
Instead of going thru line by line to dispute what Robin has said in comparison with the GM1.

Panasonic Lumix DC-S9 in-depth review

The Lumix S9 is Panasonic's newest full-frame mirrorless camera. It allows users to create their own custom looks for out-of-camera colors and is the first full-frame Lumix camera aimed squarely at social media content creators.

www.dpreview.com

 

[one eye jack]

As my above post video said, YouTubers were expecting a flagship camera to be announced but instead it was S9 which Panasonic created a big marketing blitz around it so people were disappointed and pissed off and then the GH7 was introduced without much fanfare...human nature. Bashing an entry level beginner's camera but it is usable as a professional B roll video camera.

 

[ricohflex]

Lumix USA did not bother much to answer Robin suggestion to make a S9-like camera but with a MFT sensor.
Lumix answer was completely dismissive about MFT.
This reveals Panasonic Lumix future direction. Which is 99% concentration on Full Frame sensor format cameras.

An answer by Lumix that is relevant to the Topic of this thread - is there a future?

Some other reviewers have described S9 as :
Overpriced Flop.
Confusing Camera.

The image on Internet of a S9 depicted with the useless 26mm manual focus F8 lens is very misleading.

S9 fitted with any over-sized bulging protruding, heavy Lumix L mount auto focus lens - looks HORRIBLE.

No microphone input and they dare say it is for content creator?

YouTuber Kensei Akatsu compared S9 with Sony ZV-E1. His conclusion:
For YouTube purposes and normal content creation - pick Sony ZV-E1
For Instagram, high-speed, high quality, banger. creation monster - pick S9

The camera buying public (i.e. market share) will decide whether this is a flop or a success.
Eventually time will tell.

 

[Pitachu]

LOL. Actually it seems that the guy in Lumix USA is the one behind the S9 project and feeling very sore.

But how did you jump to the conclusion "This reveals Panasonic Lumix future direction. Which is 99% concentration on Full Frame sensor format cameras."
when he did not take Robin suggestion to have a M43 version of the S9.

Lumix just introduced the m43 format G9ii and GH7 rather successfully compared to the S9 and came to the conclusion that Lumix will focus 99% on Full Frame?????

Come on, Lumix is smart enough to realize that it only have 1 friendly competitor OMDS in M43 format but 3 or big giant competitor in Full Frame Format to compete with. The S9 is a good experiment to show that maybe Panasonic should have stayed in the M43 format like OMDS.

Lumix USA did not bother much to answer Robin suggestion to make a S9-like camera but with a MFT sensor.
Lumix answer was completely dismissive about MFT.
This reveals Panasonic Lumix future direction. Which is 99% concentration on Full Frame sensor format cameras.

An answer by Lumix that is relevant to the Topic of this thread - is there a future?

Some other reviewers have described S9 as :
Overpriced Flop.
Confusing Camera.

The image on Internet of a S9 depicted with the useless 26mm manual focus F8 lens is very misleading.

S9 fitted with any over-sized bulging protruding, heavy Lumix L mount auto focus lens - looks HORRIBLE.

No microphone input and they dare say it is for content creator?

YouTuber Kensei Akatsu compared S9 with Sony ZV-E1. His conclusion:
For YouTube purposes and normal content creation - pick Sony ZV-E1
For Instagram, high-speed, high quality, banger. creation monster - pick S9

The camera buying public (i.e. market share) will decide whether this is a flop or a success.
Eventually time will tell.

 

[one eye jack]

YouTuber Kensei Akatsu compared S9 with Sony ZV-E1. His conclusion:
For YouTube purposes and normal content creation - pick Sony ZV-E1
For Instagram, high-speed, high quality, banger. creation monster - pick S9

The camera buying public (i.e. market share) will decide whether this is a flop or a success.
Eventually time will tell.

@ricohflex, you like to twist people's words and meanings and no wonder you did not include Kansei's video. Let other's decide and make up their own minds. Yes the only wisdom bit from you is only time will tell if Lumix S9 succeed or not.

@4:12 S9 is fun. ( counter to Robin Wong ) I let people find out for themselves.

 

[Pitachu]

Panasonic is definitely not ignoring the M43 market as it has earlier just released 2 M43 models. Looks like Panasonic is attempting to cover a very wide market like by releasing a low cost compact with a very wide focal range of 20mm to 1200mm at $499.
That is the reason why it release the S9 with a Full Frame sensor instead of M43 sensor has it has already planned a smaller sensor camera with a super long tele.

Surprise: Panasonic announced the new Lumix FZ80D superzoom compact camera – 43 Rumors

www.43rumors.com

 

[Pitachu]

Leica is launching its latest camera the Leica D Lux 8 today.
And it is using a M43 sensor!!! Why?
When a premium brand launch a new camera using a M43 sensor is an endorsement that M43 sensors meet their expectations for a premium brand camera and is still relevant.

Leica announces the Leica D-Lux 8 | Leica Camera SG

leica-camera.com