Wedding Photographer Mishap: What to do?

[Winsonapm]

Wow! It’s been quite a while since any thread had such a high postings in such a short time, dividing between what’s right, what if and what not.

Let’s be realistic about the situation that wedding photogs will be facing or are facing now. There would be more Uncle Bob and Cousin Joe, there are no stopping friends and relatives from joining the safari shoot.

Photogs need and must learn how to climb a peak to shoot the shot. It’s a real challenge, but it’s a glamour that you choose (even if there’s none). What a way to make a living!

 

[jetfynn]

There are many ways the main photographer can diffuse the situation instead of being rude.

Sometimes, when the situation turn into a free for all shoot. Normally in these situations I just step back and tell the uncle bob's to shoot and take the opportunity to take some interestingly angled shot, like this one:

In the end, it's the confidence to be able to deliver regardless of how the situation presents itself with the oh so many distractions on an actual wedding day, will in the end, differentiate the level of expertise one has in any given situations.

:sweat:

 

[dDarkroom]

regardless - not irregardless.

 

[JFK168]

I have been taking many AD wedding photo since the mid 70's.
I have come across many ppl taking photo along my side, and I don't see any problem about that.
It's a happy occasion, everyone should be in a happy mood.
There is one occasion sometime back when I was on vacation in Vancouver and happen to be my cousin's wedding.
My uncle and cousin wants me to be their back-up photographer.
On the wedding day, I was shooting along side with this Korean photographer who is using 2 Hasselblad cameras, stop me from taking photo.
But I just give him a nasty look and carry on taking photo. I was thinking of showing him my center finger, but did not do it because this is a happy occasion and I don't want to spoil it..
Later I went to complained to my uncle and cousin. My uncle was very angry and say why can't we take our own photos. He ask me not to care about him, just carry on shooting.
So I don't see there is any problem where friends and reletives wants to take picture of the wedding couple.
Is perfectly OK with me if I am the main photographer.

 

[Will03]

I have been taking many AD wedding photo since the mid 70's.
I have come across many ppl taking photo along my side, and I don't see any problem about that.
It's a happy occasion, everyone should be in a happy mood.
There is one occasion sometime back when I was on vacation in Vancouver and happen to be my cousin's wedding.
My uncle and cousin wants me to be their back-up photographer.
On the wedding day, I was shooting along side with this Korean photographer who is using 2 Hasselblad cameras, stop me from taking photo.
But I just give him a nasty look and carry on taking photo. I was thinking of showing him my center finger, but did not do it because this is a happy occasion and I don't want to spoil it..
Later I went to complained to my uncle and cousin. My uncle was very angry and say why can't we take our own photos. He ask me not to care about him, just carry on shooting.
So I don't see there is any problem where friends and reletives wants to take picture of the wedding couple.
Is perfectly OK with me if I am the main photographer.

hmmm.. i dun think any of the guys here said that they have a problem with friends and relatives taking photos of the wedding couple..

besides.. i think its only in recent years ( especially after the digital age) where you have got lots of people taking pictures during wedding.. I dun think there is much of such an issue in the 70s till the 90s ? where only a few or no guests at all taking pictures in a wedding..

 

[clipper79]

In my point of view, I still think there is no such thing as an "original pose" which he invented. I mean just how many poses can someone think off on a photoshoot? If he has come up with anything new (Unless there is suddenly a handstand in a wedding shot),... most of the time, there is always someone out there that has done it before. I mean, this business is nothing new, and now in the digital age,... more and more people will get their hands in photography.

There is once that I read a quote from a pro photographer which mentioned this once. How many shots do you think it will take you to take, just to make a photo work for you? One or two? or a hundred? With digital photography advancing and more advance camera systems, a lot of "photographers" are budding. Which most of them "think" they are pros. Honestly, I do not even dare call myself a pro even when I take photographs as a living and also using them in the publications I design. All because I am still not on par with most of the pros out there that will make even a fully manual film camera work for them. It is not the amount of shots you take, it is the quality of each shot.

Unless this guy is totally insecure about his "rice bowl" it is better for him to re-think his career path. All because,... the sad fact is,... more and more people will become photographers, because cameras these days are within reach of every consumer. A professional photographer usually knows what he wants to capture and goes for it, quick,... without taking a hundred shots just so that one will work. He should not be insecure if he has every shot in control.

 

[jopel]

hmmm.. i dun think any of the guys here said that they have a problem with friends and relatives taking photos of the wedding couple..

besides.. i think its only in recent years ( especially after the digital age) where you have got lots of people taking pictures during wedding.. I dun think there is much of such an issue in the 70s till the 90s ? where only a few or no guests at all taking pictures in a wedding..

and many videographers also :bsmilie:

 

[canturn]

In my point of view, I still think there is no such thing as an "original pose" which he invented. I mean just how many poses can someone think off on a photoshoot? If he has come up with anything new (Unless there is suddenly a handstand in a wedding shot),... most of the time, there is always someone out there that has done it before. I mean, this business is nothing new, and now in the digital age,... more and more people will get their hands in photography.

There is once that I read a quote from a pro photographer which mentioned this once. How many shots do you think it will take you to take, just to make a photo work for you? One or two? or a hundred? With digital photography advancing and more advance camera systems, a lot of "photographers" are budding. Which most of them "think" they are pros. Honestly, I do not even dare call myself a pro even when I take photographs as a living and also using them in the publications I design. All because I am still not on par with most of the pros out there that will make even a fully manual film camera work for them. It is not the amount of shots you take, it is the quality of each shot.

Unless this guy is totally insecure about his "rice bowl" it is better for him to re-think his career path. All because,... the sad fact is,... more and more people will become photographers, because cameras these days are within reach of every consumer. A professional photographer usually knows what he wants to capture and goes for it, quick,... without taking a hundred shots just so that one will work. He should not be insecure if he has every shot in control.

I agree fully that there's no such thing as original/ patented poses.

However, for discussion sake, put yourself in this situation (and this is for everyone to think about, not just clipper79) You as the main photographer takes pain and effort and found a spot of killer lighting and sets up the shot. One of the relatives or friends who happens to be a photographer or someone building a portfolio comes over and takes a picture of what you've composed. He used the shot for portfoilo on his website, and to make it even better, he wins an award from it and get all the due recognition and credits for it (you should be quite flattered that your idea has won an award!) Who gets the credits in the end?

As for having to take a few hundred shots for one to work, you'll be surprised how much it takes to work on your subject. Sometimes it takes me 4 shots to get the right one, and for some, er, in multiples of 10 (of course, in situations that permits me to do that). It's not so much an insecurity issue, but a strive towards perfection

 

[JFK168]

hmmm.. i dun think any of the guys here said that they have a problem with friends and relatives taking photos of the wedding couple..

besides.. i think its only in recent years ( especially after the digital age) where you have got lots of people taking pictures during wedding.. I dun think there is much of such an issue in the 70s till the 90s ? where only a few or no guests at all taking pictures in a wedding..

I agree with you, after the 90's ( during the digital age) there are alot of ppl taking photos and also video with their digital camera at the wedding.

 

[Chris Lim]

He used the shot for portfoilo on his website, and to make it even better, he wins an award from it and get all the due recognition and credits for it (you should be quite flattered that your idea has won an award!) Who gets the credits in the end?

As for having to take a few hundred shots for one to work, you'll be surprised how much it takes to work on your subject. Sometimes it takes me 4 shots to get the right one, and for some, er, in multiples of 10 (of course, in situations that permits me to do that). It's not so much an insecurity issue, but a strive towards perfection

Youch....:bsmilie: fully agreed with you Stephen. its a very good point:thumbsup:

 

[slaam]

That's why the top photographers are always re-inventing themselves.

For example, a few years ago, nobody take photos of bride's shoes. Then when someone started it, it was quite a refreshing perspective. Now you see, not only is everyone taking photos of the bride's shoes, it's like a must-have shot! You don't shoot, the make-up artist will automatically place the shoe and ask you to shoot. With the internet age, it's difficult to keep something unique for very long.

agreed and that's the only way that photography reinvents itself.. not by upgrading their equipment

 

[godzilla60]

I agree fully that there's no such thing as original/ patented poses.

However, for discussion sake, put yourself in this situation (and this is for everyone to think about, not just clipper79) You as the main photographer takes pain and effort and found a spot of killer lighting and sets up the shot. One of the relatives or friends who happens to be a photographer or someone building a portfolio comes over and takes a picture of what you've composed. He used the shot for portfoilo on his website, and to make it even better, he wins an award from it and get all the due recognition and credits for it (you should be quite flattered that your idea has won an award!) Who gets the credits in the end?

As for having to take a few hundred shots for one to work, you'll be surprised how much it takes to work on your subject. Sometimes it takes me 4 shots to get the right one, and for some, er, in multiples of 10 (of course, in situations that permits me to do that). It's not so much an insecurity issue, but a strive towards perfection

Youch....:bsmilie: fully agreed with you Stephen. its a very good point:thumbsup:

valid points that tug at the emotions but the problem is whose fault is it that the other person snap once or twice and won the award? emotions aside, hard work doesn't equate to success nowadays...:dunno:

a comparable analogy is found in the soccer game when a striker took 4-5 shots in the game and couldn't score but on the 5th shot, the ball rebounded off the goalkeeper into the feet of another player who just taps it in....

it is just a matter of being at the right place at the right time...:sweat:

 

[vince123123]

I like the part about points which tug at the emotions and lead others to go along a track which they otherwise won't go into if it was presented in a more clinical and objective fashion.

That said, I do recall a non-Singapore case where they were trying to decide this exact same thing where someone else sets up the whole thing, and the other person just makes a slavish reproduction. Don't have much details on hand right now though

valid points that tug at the emotions but the problem is whose fault is it that the other person snap once or twice and won the award? emotions aside, hard work doesn't equate to success nowadays...:dunno:

a comparable analogy is found in the soccer game when a striker took 4-5 shots in the game and couldn't score but on the 5th shot, the ball rebounded off the goalkeeper into the feet of another player who just taps it in....

it is just a matter of being at the right place at the right time...:sweat:

 

[ckuang]

Yes, am also trying to recall these exact cases which I know i had studied in uni before during my time in media law classes.

Here's an analogy i was thinking about in the Singapore context. Say a production firm xyz is making a television series for TCS5 and xyz films the series in the public streets with the director doing his job etc, etc. If i decide to setup right next the cameraman with my own personal videocam, produce my own tv series riding off the direction, then reselling the series at a cheaper price to TCS5 or whatever media outlet, is this legal? I know this is probably more complicated because it takes place in the public domain. Is this a issue where it could be legal but not ethical? I think it's certainly worth a discussion.

 

[yqt]

Yes, am also trying to recall these exact cases which I know i had studied in uni before during my time in media law classes.

Here's an analogy i was thinking about in the Singapore context. Say a production firm xyz is making a television series for TCS5 and xyz films the series in the public streets with the director doing his job etc, etc. If i decide to setup right next the cameraman with my own personal videocam, produce my own tv series riding off the direction, then reselling the series at a cheaper price to TCS5 or whatever media outlet, is this legal? I know this is probably more complicated because it takes place in the public domain. Is this a issue where it could be legal but not ethical? I think it's certainly worth a discussion.

These are 2 different thing.

A wedding is where the photographer is covering a non commercial event for the enjoyment of the wedding couple and their guest. The photographer is paid to do a job with everyone else present either related or invited by the wedding couple. You can't sue them if they "copy " your work.
In a TVC shoot as posted by yourself, it's different, the TVC Compamy have a duty to their profit margin, it's a commericial shoot, everyone connected to the TVC is emploied by the company, there are model release and a host of other legal stuff to get through befor e work is started. They have every right to sue you should you "copy" their work.

 

[godzilla60]

Yes, am also trying to recall these exact cases which I know i had studied in uni before during my time in media law classes.

Here's an analogy i was thinking about in the Singapore context. Say a production firm xyz is making a television series for TCS5 and xyz films the series in the public streets with the director doing his job etc, etc. If i decide to setup right next the cameraman with my own personal videocam, produce my own tv series riding off the direction, then reselling the series at a cheaper price to TCS5 or whatever media outlet, is this legal? I know this is probably more complicated because it takes place in the public domain. Is this a issue where it could be legal but not ethical? I think it's certainly worth a discussion.

there is a course on media law? wow....where to sign up....i am interested in it...is it a complete course or part of a qualification?

eh....for your analogy is a bit complicated, in a different environment and hard to execute...but i am also curious on this. anyone can share some light? i love this thread....exercises the brain and the analytical part of it....:thumbsup:

 

[ckuang]

Godzilla, quite a few American universities have law degrees with a specialization in media law. I would recommend one of those located in LA for further job opps are graduating.

Anyway, just wondering what the legal implications are because because in LA, during the filming of a big production, the streets are shut off, huge barriers are put up and permits are issued such that that public area now becomes private domain and as such falls under the contracts between individual that govern the actions within the private domain. I wonder what happens in singapore.

or perhaps in a more weddingish setting, say you're directing a client (much like a director would in a movie or a television show) and a videographer films your subjects and at the end of the video, the credits are "production by xyz video company," but gives no credit to the photographer for directing the shoot. is this a legal issue? an ethical one? perhaps it's no big deal to a lot of photogs here, but i think it's still worthy of discussion.

 

[vince123123]

Hmm, I have never encountered a case or law applicable in Singapore which distinguishes between non-commercial purposes and commercial purposes, as far as copyright is concerned.

And one other thing which I have yet to be proven wrong about, there simply is no legal basis as yet established in Singapore to say that model releases are required.

These are 2 different thing.

A wedding is where the photographer is covering a non commercial event for the enjoyment of the wedding couple and their guest. The photographer is paid to do a job with everyone else present either related or invited by the wedding couple. You can't sue them if they "copy " your work.
In a TVC shoot as posted by yourself, it's different, the TVC Compamy have a duty to their profit margin, it's a commericial shoot, everyone connected to the TVC is emploied by the company, there are model release and a host of other legal stuff to get through befor e work is started. They have every right to sue you should you "copy" their work.

 

[canturn]

valid points that tug at the emotions but the problem is whose fault is it that the other person snap once or twice and won the award? emotions aside, hard work doesn't equate to success nowadays...:dunno:

a comparable analogy is found in the soccer game when a striker took 4-5 shots in the game and couldn't score but on the 5th shot, the ball rebounded off the goalkeeper into the feet of another player who just taps it in....

it is just a matter of being at the right place at the right time...:sweat:

I think that already answers the question why some professionals are touchy about people shooting around them.

In fact, the higher the fees, the more onerous the photographers' terms are. It's more than just the fees that these photographers can command, but also the certain level of respect that they demand from the client and the guests on the wedding day itself. You can look at it as insecurity or photographer protecting his own biz and interests.

One of my friend's paying USD$23k for her 5-hour wedding in LA, and the list of clauses in the 9-page T&C is amazing. The couple actually instructed their coordinators and helpers for the day to make sure no one else is in the way of the contracted photographer and that all the conditions stipulated by the photographer is adhered to. If you're paying a photographer $23k for your own wedding, would you like the idea of uncle bob coming in the mess things up?

 

[jOhO]

has it occurred to anyone that "uncle bobs" are offensive even to the couples themselves???

let me count the weddings where the couple has profusely apologised to me for their behavior and did relevant actions to prevent it from happening for the rest of the day.

on a more practical note, there will always be cameras/bobs around. there is no hard and fast rule of "how many other cameras are allowed and where should they stand". but when u're in the field, it's very obvious to the experienced photographers when this line is crossed.

and back to the topic of "stealing poses". if someone is "stealing my pose", don't i have every right to extend courtesy and let them shoot FIRST, them being esteemed guests/relatives of the couple? whether this action of mine is to the dismay of the couple i'm not sure, but i'm just being polite. i'll stand back (or shoot other things) till they are done. nothing wrong on my part.