If help my friend buy things. Meet up there to pass him the things and he passed me the money. Also cannot meh? This is not business, just helping my friend buy something and pass to him leh. :think:
Uh, the law is the law, there's no splitting hairs or strictness or laxness involved. As I said, the system is charged based on fare gates, I contract based on fare gates, and hence the legal liability is based on fare gates.
Not liking the legal position or trying to exploit what you consider as "legal loopholes" is another issue altogether.
Trying to correlate one's own personal value system or rules of operation to what the legal position is, is also another issue altogether.
If help my friend buy things. Meet up there to pass him the things and he passed me the money. Also cannot meh? This is not business, just helping my friend buy something and pass to him leh. :think:
Whoa! That is such a harsh -- and rude -- word to use. Appalling! ;(However if people misuse the system to cheat what they ethically owe, I don't have any issues of a company making a rule to discourage such practice.
I didn't say laws much be based on one's personal morals. What i say is that the "charge by gate exit" was done that way not because it has any natural common sense, but because it was technically more practical to do that. The company won't think it fine if everyone gets in to trains, travel and do business over the gates, get back and claim that their traveling few stops doesn't actually count because they exited at the same stop as per "contract". This is obviously a technical loophole in the system; At least I don't think is a logical way of charging. But I'm happy with this system because it's simple to implement and more convenient and possibly faster than, say, needing a ticket to enter the train or keep someone like bus captain in every train and charge us more to pay his salary. Hence I don't have any problems if the company makes additional refining laws to keep the "contract" in line with what they think is fair use. IMO, a rule that constrains the so-called "contract" is better than a more draconian system that will ensure that people pay for real use of trains which will most likely be costlier to commuter.
As I said, company made that contract, company also made the other rule against over-the-gate trading. So if one wants to stick to the contract by letter, then let's stick to the letter and stop questioning one part of the law. It is there to prevent people exploiting the other part.
I rest my case.
Whoa! That is such a harsh -- and rude -- word to use. Appalling!
If the buyer already paid via internet banking. On that day, I just pass them the thing, is it business transaction?
if it is a genuine friendship thing how? I pass my friend something , strictly no MONEY involved. Can or not?
also, can chit chat over the gate or not?
Whoa! That is such a harsh -- and rude -- word to use. Appalling! ;(
.
:Later,
"31(2) No person shall for the purpose of any trade or business transfer any article or goods between the paid area and unpaid area unless the article or goods is taken by a person through a ticket gate. "
Counts as trade.
Also:
"Loitering prohibited
18. No person, not being a passenger or having business in or in connection with the Authority or its licensee or its tenant, shall loiter or remain in or upon any part of the railway premises."
So no chit-chat.
I didn't say laws much be based on one's personal morals. What i say is that the "charge by gate exit" was done that way not because it has any natural common sense, but because it was technically more practical to do that. The company won't think it fine if everyone gets in to trains, travel and do business over the gates, get back and claim that their traveling few stops doesn't actually count because they exited at the same stop as per "contract". This is obviously a technical loophole in the system; At least I don't think is a logical way of charging. But I'm happy with this system because it's simple to implement and more convenient and possibly faster than, say, needing a ticket to enter the train or keep someone like bus captain in every train and charge us more to pay his salary. Hence I don't have any problems if the company makes additional refining laws to keep the "contract" in line with what they think is fair use. IMO, a rule that constrains the so-called "contract" is better than a more draconian system that will ensure that people pay for real use of trains which will most likely be costlier to commuter.
As I said, company made that contract, company also made the other rule against over-the-gate trading. So if one wants to stick to the contract by letter, then let's stick to the letter and stop questioning one part of the law. It is there to prevent people exploiting the other part.
I rest my case.
I have the same doubt as well..
Say: My aunt who stay in the North likes to eat the chicken rice from my place at West side. I help her buy a few packets, pass to her over at the corner where the gate is far off and she pays me. Illegal a not?
What classifies as a business(registerd business/complany)?
Is an errand a business?
I have a lens that is not in use any more..letting go of it cheap over here in CS. (No profit involved). Doing the buyer an errand, I pass to him at the MRT gate..:bsmilie:
And if I were to stick to the letter of the law, yes I cannot do trading over the gate, but I can, and am legally entitled to, travel to A, do whatever I want at B's paid area, and then go back to A and exit. That is what I'm legally entitled to do.
I suspect you are mixing up the whole idea of legality and morality, what are laws (legislated) and what are company policy (made by non legislative bodies)
This is what I say too. If one talks about "fairness" then one must first be "fair" oneself. Else, if one talks about "laws" or "contracts" then one must abide the law or contract including the clauses/exceptions one doesn't like. BE CONSISTENT. EITHER WAY, it doesn't make sense doing business over the gate.
I agree on your point that it may be LEGAL to do that, and that I shouldn't have used that word. However, the point of my argument is still valid regardless of whether its legal or not, as long as you are consistent in choosing your basis. It isn't legal to trade over gates. It isn't ethical to evade payment.
(For the sake of completeness: Of course this assumes that the ethical system used considers traveling more and paying less as unethical: otherwise one can argue that traveling thus is ethical and any law that prevents it is unethical. I agree with your point that everyone's ethical systems do not necessarily have such a clause. Mine does.)
At no time was I questioning the rights and wrongs, but merely the issue of being legally bound.
I do add a small comment that I was trying to abide by the law or contract, and hence I work within that parameter. If the law/contract says I can, then I will, regardless of what others may think is morally right or wrong or what things SHOULD be.
I thought it was clear by my post #18, that my point is that one must stick to "fairness" of oneself if one questions the fairness of a law/regulation/rule/clause etc. I should probably have been clearer. AND if one brings the "contract" to assert ones own "fairness" and derive the ethics from the contractual conformity, then one mustn't question the "unfair" regulation/law/contract as the adhering to the word of regulation/law/contract, by definition, is fair under this system of reasoning.
I do not want to enter in to a polemic on what constitutes a law/regulation etc beyond what's necessary for my argument, which, in short: be consistent.
Of course I wasn't going to say that you must not. I was just questioning the moral consistency on the "unfair" cry according to what I think is fair and unfair, because that crutial question wasn't discussed in the (what I thought was) sensational article. You may have a different way of thinking what's fair and unfair and I need not say that it's not necessarily better or worse than mine. However, that doesn't not stop me from expressing my view of fairness, which isn't irrelevant to the question discussed.
If I do the transaction out of convenience -- as is the case always -- I'm now labelled a cheat?
The point is that you were quick to pull the trigger and label everybody as CHEATERS blindly.
Similarly, if I were on my way to Tampines from Raffles Place and decide to make a transaction in Paya Lebar, why in the world do I have to exit my ass off the fare gate knowing it's gonna be a quick 1 or 2 minute transaction? Geez.
Stupid.