The Zone System, does it matter?
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Wisp said:
TAAAA wrong. Zone system is not about only about getting precision exposure to get within the slide restrictive latitude. Why is people here make comment they do not understand only to have afew of us correcting them. Give one liner, then claim we have no right in telling that his view is flaw. Even I will agree my above words are flaw because they are written with no intention to be "nice" but they may mean what I trying to say. Do the person ready know the subject well?
Let go through his comments again. "Depend" one word yet so profounding or is it just wating for people to fall into his trap by asking him why? "Well I don't use the meter" A little more words but arrogant few words. It neither make us to belive he in the class of master photographer or misleading poeple to think little of the important to correct usage of the exposure meter. "I use the sunny f16 rule". If it work for you "good for you", but what was it got to do with this thread about encouraging the zone system? Unless it is telling people with sunny f16 rule we can do without the zone system. If you are not going to give detail inputs how the sunny f16 can replace zone system why start. Can the sunny f16 rule replace the zone system or like what the person say only useful to the slide film.
The zone system as said many time over is a thinking exposure approach, that allow to us to know our tools and media. So that we can previsualize the image and finally visualized what is previsualized before to the final print. Simple english- The picture of what I see in my mind of the subject will through zone system became the final print. Not some thing the sunny f16 rule can do. Believe or not through the understanding and practise of this system is not that hard. Just that alot of people at first got caught by the wealth of information in zone system making them think it complex.
On one hand we are encouraging people of a good exposure approach. Then come a smarty who in the first place I serious doubt he even know this stuff at all, say something like this so the rest of us have to do the clean up due to these misinformation.
singscott said:
WELL SAID!!!!! This is exactly what I meant when I wrote "hammering a nail with our bare hands" and "stirring hot coffee with our fingers". We use a hammer and a spoon to the perform the necessary tasks. Without them, it will cause "pain" (the "pain" of printing the image in the darkroom).
To a Zone System practitioner, the meter is an important tool. Just like a hammer or a spoon. We use it not only to determine the correct exposure, but to previsualizing an image also. Not to mention, a well-exposed negative is soooo much easier to print compare to one that is exposed using estimation.
photobum said:
It's rather explicit in its insinuations, using descriptive words like 'another smarty proclaims not everybody uses a meter in this thread'. That could only be me, isn't it? Except I'm not trying to refute the use of the zone system, I just said its dependent on the person or application. Alright, doc probably has a point saying my statement is too vague and may confuse people, but at least he didn't rebuke and label me (directly or indirectly).
And here you resort to playing with words and technicalities to get in the last word.
And here is my point. Just because I don't use a meter there you are shooting an assumption
I must be illiterate. Give me a break. A photographer of your calibre would probably be more patient and persuade, and blunt if you have to, rather than smacking labels on people.
(Btw, how is proper exposure related to whether your image doesn't meet your standards in composition or prespective? That is one question that puzzles me. It's either whether you got an easy neg (or digital file) to bring out what you want or you got a wasted image.)
And I don't recommend practising estimated exposure if one doesn't shoot very often. I laid off for a month back in singapore, and when I got back into it I basically messed up all the interior shots I've taken on that particular roll. It took me another test roll before I could figure it all out and start shooting again.
It's abit wasteful, but like I said, I prefer to sacrifice a little for that little speed.
It's abit wasteful, but like I said, I prefer to sacrifice a little for that little speed.
Wisp said:
I ain't going to argue with you. You have your own working styles and I have mine. Even my wife argues with me over our differences between the ways we work. You ain't my wife. So it isn't worth it. At least, my wife and I can sleep over our differences and be nice to each other again the following day.
By the way, the words "proclaims" and "thinks" have very different meanings. Please check the dictionary. Oops!.... I forgot, you don't read.
Please take note, "don't read" does not mean "can't read". My nephew "don't read" storybooks because he is lazy. However, he received full marks in his last English oral exams in school.
Tupi Guy said:
“区域曝光法" (Zone System) 的根本原理是針對相機的 18% 灰測光加以定正。区域曝光法從完成品的方向開始思考而不是看應用那一位置測光來影出現場光度。 故可達到攝影者構想出來的效果。
簡單來説， 相機測光會把測光位影成 18% 灰 - Zone 5。 区域曝光法再從 Zone 5 向光暗兩邊各設 5 個相距 1 stop 的 Zone : Zone 0 - Zone 4 及 Zone 6 - Zone 10。 如攝影者認為測光位應影成某一光度， 如淺灰 - Zone 7， 的話他便把曝光調高 2 stops 即可。 這是我看了区域曝光法後得出的最基本應用方法， 實際区域曝光法不只這些。
- 選擇要手提式测光表（handheld light meter) 的畫面;
- 決定這個畫面屬於那一個 Zone, 如是否屬於 Zone 3,
- 將選擇的畫面測光;
- 將所得的測光值, 基於畫面所屬的 Zone 值與 Zone 5 的差異作調整。如 Zone 3 與 Zone 5 差兩級, 曝光值亦應減兩級。
Tupi Guy
Senior Member
photobum said:
?????" (Zone System) ??????????? 18% ???????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????
????? ??????????? 18% ? - Zone 5? ??????? Zone 5 ??????? 5 ??? 1 stop ? Zone : Zone 0 - Zone 4 ? Zone 6 - Zone 10? ????????????????? ??? - Zone 7? ????????? 2 stops ??? ?????????????????????? ????????????
- ??????????handheld light meter) ???;
- ??????????? Zone, ????? Zone 3, ???
- ????????;
- ???????, ??????? Zone ?? Zone 5 ???????? Zone 3 ? Zone 5 ???, ?????????
:bsmilie: THANK YOU
just wondering, how does the zone system apply to shooting in digital when we don't do traditional dark room anymore? :dunno:
can anyone enlighten?
can anyone enlighten?
singscott said:Even in digital Zone system still very much appily here. A very good exposure method for not only film but the things it teachs can easily adapted to digital sensor
beachbum said:
I will not talk about the zone system itself. But I will relate a pm sent to me from a CS member who attended a workshop I conducted at Bobman's studio.
He wrote:
"Your beginners' class to b/w photography was an eye-opener to more photographic possibilities, really.
The next Saturday, I went to my fren's studio and did exactly what you did, only this time.... I want to it digitally.
The result is below, shot digitally (an image was attached)
The first thing that surprises me was that the color picture have impact. Secondly the conversion to B/W became much easier. Thirdly I could do more with the model.....
So, I'd like to thank you for the useful insight about zone system.
As for my fren, after he saw his image, he asked me if I could set up the same for his client."
From one "bum" to another "bum":beachbum said:
First of all, you probably have something called "Adobe Photoshop" in your computer.
Secondly, You have seen something called "Neutral Density Filter".
Thirdly, you should have a function on your DSLR called "spot metering".
Fourthly, you must have heard of something called "Piezography Neutral K7 pigment inks" for both Epson and Canon 8-color inkjet printers.
Finally, you most likely have come across something called "Hahnemühle Photo Rag Fine Art Paper".
With these combinations, you are ready to practice Zone System for digital photographers. I am conducting a "share-and-learn" workshop on the topic on June 25.
beachbum said:
If you read the books. The use of film or wet process is just to show how the zone system were to be use then. There alot of details in books that teach zone system on how film or paper would react to the media of then. Remember digital was not even a buzz word yet, so there no digital photography. What the zone system really teach is there a thinking approach to exposure or using exposure in compose the picture. Zone system basically break down into knowing your equipment and media first through testing. After knowing your equipment and media, through experience gain from practise to see picture in exposure zones, you will able to previsualize the image in your head before you go about to expose your film. Then through post process that you learn by testing again you will able to visualize the image you previsualize onto the final print.
So can we do it on digital? What have change? Only the media have change, photography itself still deal with light, exposure values, a recording media and printing. Just that the film then is now the sensor, like film the digital sensor have it limit of how many zone of exposure it can record. Over and under exposure will result in different result. So does converting in different process like raw converting programs and file formats will result in different feel and result. Because of knowing zone system the convertion from film to digital had been very easy to me. Where do histogram, curve, level and other thing in photoshop come from? Last time we use filter to get desire effect on B&W now we just use channel in photoshop, guess where did that come from?
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