The Zone System, does it matter?

[Wisp]

Thank you indeed!

Such sound wisdom, and so clearly and succinctly expounded! We now understand fully what you are saying. I am sure all of us are indebted to your kind efforts to show us the light.

Now I have this silly spot meter. And I just pointed it at the white dress my friend is wearing, and it reads f8 speed 1/125. MY ISO is 400.

Now please enlighten me more in your so concise and succinct manner. Shall I set my shutter speed to 1/125 and f8?

*ponder*
Open 2 1/2 stops for an absolutely white background.
2 stops to retain some details in the highlights.

As for silver hallide film, plonk in an extra stop anyway to play safe and to ensure most of the shadows are well exposed, and +/- 20% time of dev depending on the need to contract/expand the tonal range.

Prefer to use dilute dev with minimal agitation though and over develop.

And try not to read too many logarithmic scales of film characteristics versus exposure and get some well deserved rest.

And do my damn presentation slides..argh.

 

[LittleWolf]

Spare me the technical jargon! And the pretense to hide your ignorance with more mumbo-jumbo!

Jeez, you kept bugging me with silly questions about white shirts. And when I mention white shirts in my reply, that's technical mumbo-jumbo? Get a life.

These comments of yours are prime examples of ignorant utterances from one "who knows not he knows not, but pretends to know a lot, and then confuses the knownots with his knownot".

Well, you must be right of this as you're a prime example .

 

[ricohflex]

Vesak Day
1 hour away
Peace

knowledge is good
wisdom is great
Compassion will prevail

 

[singscott]

Doc let give up this little wolfy. He do not know a good thing even it fell on his lap. As long he dun give out misinformation on the zone system. Let he be. Why should we waste our effort on young know it all. You are a student and I am still learning, we are not in the same class as these enlighted folks:devil:

 

[photobum]

....And since black is a darker shade of grey, and white a lighter shade of grey, and since these are "fundamentally the same", then black is essentially the same as white!

Ha...ha.....ha.... ha....:bsmilie:

Upon hearing this, I am sure Ansel will be laughing-stiff in his grave.

I am sure if he is still alive today, he will love to meet you guys.

 

[Bobman]

Thank you for so much input and thanks for those who went to such an extend to conduct workshops on ZS.

I guess nowadays, most instructors teaching black and white don't bother to go thru the ZS anymore. Either they themselves are not familiar with the subject or they find it not worthwhile to teach for the fee they collect? Only care more on profits and gains than passions and dedications.

I myself feel that ZS is most important in order to produce a good negative, I may be wrong.

 

[singscott]

Thank you for so much input and thanks for those who went to such an extend to conduct workshops on ZS.

I guess nowadays, most instructors teaching black and white don't bother to go thru the ZS anymore. Either they themselves are not familiar with the subject or they find it not worthwhile to teach for the fee they collect? Only care more on profits and gains than passions and dedications.

I myself feel that ZS is most important in order to produce a good negative, I may be wrong.

No I think you are right. But there are people like student who offer these information for free. I remember he had even conducted a Zone System workshop once.

Alot of us is caught up with this digital preview thingy, that we want the best looking shot right out from the digital camera after checking the preview. Only to to be disappointed after they download the pictures on to the computer. Any one who do zone system will know it not how good is our picture on the preview mode but did we capture the most optimal information available on the recording sensor may it be the film or digital sensors. Then that optimal information will help to get that final print that we previsualised when we go about to print it. Knowing the zone system have made me able to read and understand the histogram, for it to tell me did I get the most optimal information on the recording sensor for what I going to do.

In fact alot of good photographer are practising stuff the zone system teachs without even knowing it. To me zone system is just the complete thinking approach for exposure. This thinking approach will allow us to do what we previsualise so that we can achieve our idea final print.

 

[photobum]

I myself feel that ZS is most important in order to produce a good negative, I may be wrong.

NO, you are absolutely right! True Zone System practitioners are so sure of their exposures that they does not even need to preview their digital shots.

I don't even use the preview monitor on my Canon EOS 1Ds MkII, other than to check my composition and placement.

In the past when I was using film, knowing the Zone System actually helped me save money and overall studio expenses by reducing developing fees for the Ektachrome sheet films.

 

[Wisp]

depends....

 

[photobum]

depends....

Please give your reasonings....

 

[Wisp]

well, not everybody needs a meter.

 

[photobum]

well, not everybody needs a meter.

If you don't need one, your camera probably is relying on one.

I don't use a meter when I started photography 27 years ago. I rely solely on the "Sunny 16 Rule." But soon after, I came to realize that my images suck!

Now I use a Pentax Digital Spot meter and the Zone System. My images are a far cry from those taken 27 years ago.

 

[Wisp]

okie dokes, whatever cooks your goose. The meter only slowed me down for the stuff I dabble in, so I removed the battery for it some time ago.

 

[student]

It is absolutely true that NOT EVERYBODY needs a meter.

I know for sure Ed Weston did not use one.

And I also know that his son, Brett, also did not use a meter.

I have both Brett's and Edward's prints (the latter printed by another person). And they are gorgeous!

And I know that Paolo Roversi does not use one, and his images are simply stunning.

Now the interesting points. How many here in CS, or in highly talented Singapore, and maybe in Australia,are the match of the Westons and Roversi?

I suspect 99.99% of CSers here will simply not able to function without the meter ( and the LCD!). Of course I am referring to the built-in meters.

But there are people who are not Westons and Roversi, and they can use cameras without meters. They may use rules like the "sunny 16', or they may have a built in meter in their head. Or they may have special styles which can be well served by "guesstimate" style of exposure and developing. (in fact, I am trying out now this guesstimate exposure just to see how things turn out!)

But how many are of this calibre?

So, how useful is the comment "not everybody needs a meter?" even though the statement is technically correct?

While some people may not use a meter for their cameras for various reasons, how much time do they have to spend to doctor the negatives? There are those who prefer dilute developers ( a good friend of mine use a M4 and just "hammered" away - then souped his negatives in dilute developers - he had given his negatives to me to print. I can tell you they are a nightmare to print!), but how good are the negatives? Like my friend's, printable, but I think his images will be much stronger if he would take just a few seconds to meter his subjects!

But to each his own.

 

[Wisp]

hence my word, it depends..

 

[student]

hence my word, it depends..

It depends -

On what?

On whom?

A statement may be technically correct, but if it has not practical merit, then it is useless, and is a statement for the sake of making a statement.

 

[Wisp]

It depends on the person whether he/she feels it's useful for him/her?

 

[denniskee]

sorry guys, i am trying to follow this thread but find it hard. if possible, can use easier to understand english please. thanks.

 

[photobum]

sorry guys, i am trying to follow this thread but find it hard. if possible, can use easier to understand english please. thanks.

Oh... Let me be a "kaypoh" and explain to you, my friend.

There is this Bobman guy who wanted us to read the Zone System information on the cicada.com link. But there are some smarties who thinks that the Zones System is not needed.

So, as this thread progresses, more and more people (included yours truly) added their comments on this subject. Since practicing the Zone System requires you to use a meter, another smarty thinks that a meter is not needed just because a few master photographers in the US don't use it (but come to think about it, how many of us are true master photographers). It is like hammering a nail with your bare hands! Stirring hot coffee with your fingers!

The thread continues....

 

[Wisp]

Oh... Let me be a "kaypoh" and explain to you, my friend.

There is this Bobman guy who wanted us to read the Zone System information on the cicada.com link. But there are some smarties who thinks that the Zones System is not needed.

So, as this thread progresses, more and more people (included yours truly) added their comments on this subject. Since practicing the Zone System requires you to use a meter, another smarty thinks that a meter is not needed just because a few master photographers in the US don't use it (but come to think about it, how many of us are true master photographers). It is like hammering a nail with your bare hands! Stirring hot coffee with your fingers!

The thread continues....

Geez, I was hoping to avoid typing too much, oh well.

Well, you've been using the zone system for years now, and its your forte, and I believe you got a good solid reputation because of it. But just because some people have done well without it you don't have to dismiss them. What's with the 'hammering a nail with your barehands' or 'stirring hot coffee with your fingers?' comments? Or the label 'smarties'? I didn't practise estimated exposure or pre focus just because of a 'few master photographers in the US' or to show I'm 'a master' (Which sadly I wish I am, then I won't have to slog so hard for my degree), but because it's neccasary for what I love to do.

I didn't put down the zone system, and that's the first lesson on exposure I learnt anyway. It's alot easier and faster to learn than estimating exposure or distance. It's just it's not suitable for the stuff I want to do. I just expressed it anyway, and what's with this derisive behaviour I got in return?

At least somebody is keeping an open mind and willing to investigate why ppl like me still use the old 'sunny f/16 rule' despite the control provided by the zone system, and not labelling me and others a 'smarty'.