The Zone System, does it matter?

[student]

Not necessary to thank me; helping the needy is only sound practice.



You could use a physical instrument like a light meter to make a measurement. You can relate this measurement to the sensitivity, which is defined by physical measurements as well (but the manufacturer should have done this for you already). You convert your findings to a combination of physical quantities such as (exposure) time and aperture.



The necessary basics of light were understood long before Nikon (a physical instrumentation company, by the way!) and Canon were even founded. And long, long before Ansel Adams cooked up his "zone system". But Ansel Adams was not rooted in science - he was a pianist - which might explain things to an extent.

Thank you indeed!

Such sound wisdom, and so clearly and succinctly expounded! We now understand fully what you are saying. I am sure all of us are indebted to your kind efforts to show us the light.

Now I have this silly spot meter. And I just pointed it at the white dress my friend is wearing, and it reads f8 speed 1/125. MY ISO is 400.

Now please enlighten me more in your so concise and succinct manner. Shall I set my shutter speed to 1/125 and f8?

 

[LittleWolf]

Now please enlighten me more in your so concise and succinct manner. Shall I set my shutter speed to 1/125 and f8?

Even in Singapore, there is no regulation what you should do in this situation. Maybe you could ask yourself what you want to achieve? This is the part where the "understanding" comes in.

 

[student]

Even in Singapore, there is no regulation what you should do in this situation. Maybe you could ask yourself what you want to achieve? This is the part where the "understanding" comes in.

My understanding is poor.

Well, I just want my friend's shirt to turn out white. Shall I set my camera to f8 and 1/125?

Please help me. Thanks +++++++

 

[photobum]

Then I think it is such a waste of talent.
The school emphasise too much on just 1 aspect.
You know a student can fail Mandarin and not make it to local U.
Then he goes overseas and later becomes a Phd.

Ha...ha... I didn't fail any subjects in school (Mmmm... maybe religious studies in secondary school) and I still made it to overseas U and completed my postgraduate degree. I am not saying I was an excellent student, just slightly above average.

Anyway, without a clear understanding of light, how can one claims him or herself to be a photographer (light-writer)? I wondered.

BTW, I used to wonder why the university make us learn the Zone System in our freshman years. After 10 years, I finally realized the reasons behind.

 

[photobum]

Now I have this silly spot meter. And I just pointed it at the white dress my friend is wearing, and it reads f8 speed 1/125. MY ISO is 400.

Now please enlighten me more in your so concise and succinct manner. Shall I set my shutter speed to 1/125 and f8?

I am sure you are a wise man. And any wise man will know he will get a grey shirt and an almost Africanized skin tone when he does a N process.

BTW, I own one of those silly things that looks exactly like a gun with a trigger too, and they called it Pentax / Zone VI Spotmeter. Except it doesn't make you a marksman. Try bringing one of those into your carry-on baggage on your next business flight. You will get an unwelcome and suspicious look from the custom officers.

 

[LittleWolf]

Ha...ha... I didn't fail any subjects in school.

But Ansel Adams dropped out of school at the tender age of 12.

 

[photobum]

But Ansel Adams dropped out of school at the tender age of 12.

Ahh.... good for him. At least he got to do what he loved and be very good at it. You don't need a PhD to click the shutter.

 

[ricohflex]

erm...
What was that going on between student and littlewolf.
Knowledge and wisdom have varying depths and nuances.
Of the two, wisdom is the greater.
Both academic and non-bookish.
Nobody knows everything.

 

[LittleWolf]

Ahh.... good for him. At least he got to do what he loved and be very good at it. You don't need a PhD to click the shutter.

But isn't it ironic that people take university level courses on a holy grail by a "master" who despised formalised education so much in the first place? Maybe the lesson to be learned from Ansel Adams is not to blindly follow conventional teaching opinion (which at some schools seems to include the "zone system")?

 

[tucker]

sure ya can doc! take 125 f8. if ya want aye.
ya know ya stuff more then anyone else!
serious!

& Im sure we'll all get a grey shirt @ that N developement too but why do I get a chinese shirt @ mine N??

 

[singscott]

Hey, Singscott

Don't use that. (hmmm....what were you doing in the darkroom)
No wonder Singapore birth rate falling......:bsmilie:

Hehe hokkien piang la:sticktong

 

[singscott]

For what ever is going on here. I like to say there nothing wrong for knowing the zone system. It is not that hard. I like to believe I am a practising zone system photographer. All you need is passion, simple reading ablities, a working brain, take effort to go out there to actually do it and record what you learn. This come from a person who don't even have a degree in anything yet alone a Phd.

Yes people will say they do their stuff without the zone system, well good for them. But there people who actually think its a good thing and willing to share this good thing to others. Using the zone system different or even the same photographers can yield different good pictures on the same subject, with the same lighting condition, by the same angle and even using the same equipment with confident. How do we do it?

By using the zone system. It have help us to previsualizatise of possible final images using knowlegde gain through testing of the equipments and display medias. It a thinking approach to exposure that have continue to work for people like us who use it.

We only here to encourage, share and clear some misinformation about it. Misinformation like what alot of photographer here kept saying that the technolgy had replace the zone system and zone system is only for film and b&w print in the darkroom. To this date no photography equipment manufacturers claim that their "high tech" device can replace the zone sytem. The closest is the zone system metering system by Hasselblad for their 205TCC and 203FE cameras. And these just to aid you on your quest of using the zone system. So why is it so? The reason is because the main ingredient in the process is not the equipments or processing steps. It is our thinking brain. No equipment or technology can replace it yet in the zone system

 

[student]

sure ya can doc! take 125 f8. if ya want aye.
ya know ya stuff more then anyone else!
serious!

& Im sure we'll all get a grey shirt @ that N developement too but why do I get a chinese shirt @ mine N??

My understanding is indeed poor. And old man that I am, I am not familiar with your "new lingo"

As I mentioned earlier, I only want my friend's shirt to be white. And setting my camera to 1/125 and f8 will make sure that my friend's shirt will be white? Yes?

Littlewolf, would that be your recommendation too?

 

[photobum]

..... The reason is because the main ingredient in the process is not the equipments or processing steps. It is our thinking brain. No equipment or technology can replace it yet in the zone system

Ahh.... Well said comrade. Finally, we have somebody with a brain in his head, not kidneys. Trust me, when it comes to the subject of Zone System, many of you have your vital organs growing in the wrong places.

I am a firm supporter of Zone System and new photographic technologies. However, I do not believe that technology can ever replace the Zone System. Of course, unless we replace our brains with a micro-chip (that will be a different story).

 

[photobum]

.... Im sure we'll all get a grey shirt @ that N developement too but why do I get a chinese shirt @ mine N??

What are you talking about????

I am an old man. As old as Adam himself. I don't understand why young people these days don't write in proper English sentences.

 

[photobum]

But isn't it ironic that people take university level courses on a holy grail by a "master" who despised formalised education so much in the first place?

If you are aware, Jerry Uelsmann, who is the Emeritus Professor of Photographic Sciences and Technology at the University of Florida at Gainesville, is a one of the disciple of Ansel Adams. Jerry was knighted by Adam at the coast of Key West in the 1960s.

I had met Jerry at several occasions (including once at the NAPA Convention in Miami). All I can say is, he is also a firm believer of both the Zone System and digital photography. Otherwise, Adobe will not invite him to be one of their technical consultants for the development of Photoshop.

 

[LittleWolf]

And setting my camera to 1/125 and f8 will make sure that my friend's shirt will be white? Yes?

First and foremost, "white" and "gray" are fundamentally the same thing. What you may refer to with "white" is just a brighter shade of gray.

How bright or dark your friend's shirt will be reproduced is determined during printing. Indeed, if your only requirement is that the shirt should be "white", the exposure that you suggest would probably be absolutely fine.

The drawback may be that you lose some shadow details, but you care only about the white dress, right?

The optimum exposure to records the contrast of the scene requires some additional information: you need to know how your light meter translates the measurement into aperture/time recommendations, and you need to know the characteristic curve of the film.

 

[student]

Indeed, if your only requirement is that the shirt should be "white", the exposure that you suggest would probably be absolutely fine.

Spare me the technical jargon! And the pretense to hide your ignorance with more mumbo-jumbo!

This very statement shows how ignorant you are regarding understanding light and tones. And you seem to write with such "authority" on a subject that you obviously has little knowledge of.

These comments of yours are prime examples of ignorant utterances from one "who knows not he knows not, but pretends to know a lot, and then confuses the knownots with his knownot".

 

[singscott]

First and foremost, "white" and "gray" are fundamentally the same thing. What you may refer to with "white" is just a brighter shade of gray.

How bright or dark your friend's shirt will be reproduced is determined during printing. Indeed, if your only requirement is that the shirt should be "white", the exposure that you suggest would probably be absolutely fine.

The drawback may be that you lose some shadow details, but you care only about the white dress, right?

The optimum exposure to records the contrast of the scene requires some additional information: you need to know how your light meter translates the measurement into aperture/time recommendations, and you need to know the characteristic curve of the film.

Err then black is a darker shade of grey? And grey is a lighter shade of black? Grey is a darker shade of white? Wow you are very enlightening.

"The optimum exposure to record the contrast of the scene requires some additional information: you need to know how your light meter translates the measurement into aperture/time recommendations, and you need to know the characteristic curve of the film" That additional information is where the zone system come about to help you get that information.

 

[student]

Err then black is a darker shade of grey? And grey is a lighter shade of black? Grey is a darker shade of white? Wow you are very enlightening.

"The optimum exposure to record the contrast of the scene requires some additional information: you need to know how your light meter translates the measurement into aperture/time recommendations, and you need to know the characteristic curve of the film" That additional information is where the zone system come about to help you get that information.

I simply love the way you bring this guy's wonderful logic to its logical conclusion! And I may add further.

And since black is a darker shade of grey, and white a lighter shade of grey, and since these are "fundamentally the same", then black is essentially the same as white!

And therefore according to this guy's logic, one can take a negative exposed for black, and print it to white! Wow!!!!:bigeyes: :bigeyes:

I wonder where he learnt this nonsense from?