The wisdom of buying into a rangefinder system


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It's a fallacy that you have to drum scan everything and pay big bucks.

In fact, scanning adds unnecessary cost to shooting film.

Print in the darkroom, it's cheaper and better.

At small sizes, you may not see the higher resolution of film but hopefully you'll see the character, eg Velvia has a certain look, Tri-X has a certain look, etc.


surge said:
digital have come to a time that it is as good as film if not better. many argue that film has so much more resolution that digital wil take a loooong time to catch up. but look at a 7mp printout at 8R, can you really spot the difference in terms of quality? is digital is less sharp cos film has 'more pixel'?
 

Stoned said:
There's just one problem there, I don't like Leica aesthetics.

The G2 look is actually inspired by the pre-1960s Contax RF.
It has a focusing wheel on the right.

Users go for a certain look and feel.
Get what you like.

It is about character.
 

If you are thinking of getting a rangefinder, don't, get a digital slr or the upcoming leica digital rangefinder instead.

Seriously, this is what I tell my friends when they are about to buy a Leica or film camera. If you really interested in getting a rangefinder you would have bought one already. It does not make any sense to buy a film camera if you are into photography for the money or just to showing off on parties. You sure as hell won't take better pictures and you'll spend more money on wasted shots.

Buy a film camera because you enjoy taking pictures, good or bad, and love the challenges that comes with film.(also you have plenty of money to spend away).
 

Get the G2 if you like it lah. I had one before, its a beautiful camera and I can understand why you want to buy it just to use it...

I moved from Nikon SLRs to Leica RFs and the G2 then to Mamiya MF and to toy cameras and have realized one thing. Film formats, megapixels and types of camera do nothing for your photography if you can't see it in the first place. So as long as it does what you want it to do, can already :)
 

"It does not make any sense to buy a film camera if you are into photography for the money or just to showing off on parties."

On the contrary. Lets say you buy a Canon EOS 30. Nowadays the 2nd hand price around $400 on CS. So your downside is $400, maximum.

If you bought a 10D two years ago, what was the price then? What is the price now? Esp now that 20D and 5D have been introduced.

Who would have lost more $$?

To use rangefinder examples, you could check the 2nd prices for M cameras in the last 5 years. A M4 five years ago would have cost you around $2,000 (great condition 2nd hand). The same M4 would still cost you around $2,000 (great condition 2nd hand). Even if the condition only excellent but not great, it would cost you at least $1,500.

The cost of film and processing is not "wasted" shots. It's only wasted if you learn nothing from it. The purpose of shooting film, shooting rangefinders, is to really learn how to shoot properly. No doubt some frames will be wasted because you "missed the moment", etc. but you learn to use the rangefinder like a sniper ("make every shot count") rather than like a machine-gun DSLR style.

Digital is not free, in fact it is quite expensive if you cost out the hard disk, CD/DVD backups, workflow software, photoshop, PC, printer, ink, etc. Of course, if you are a pro shooting 100 rolls a week, the cost of film/processing would overwhelm you, but hey, most amateurs don't even shoot more than 10 rolls a year, so lets be realistic in comparison. I'm sure you can use Excel spreadsheets to calculate the breakeven point if you wish.

It can be argued that rangefinders and film cameras in general force you to become a better photog because you learn to value film and to make every shot count. You will take better pictures because the camera forces you to, esp. if you respect the medium (ie do not resort to scanning the film and PS-ing to change backgrounds, remove distractions from the frame, etc), so you pay a lot more attention to cropping, background/foreground detail, etc. even before you shoot.

If you want to get the Leica Digital M, fine, just remember that like any digital camera, the price decline will be very steep in the initial years, and that 5 years from now, there will be machines which outclass it totally. In other words, you could lose a lot more $$ buying a digital M than a film M.

The next question is, will there be film 5-10 years from now? Honestly, no one can predict the future, except to point to analogies such as powerboats did not cause sailboats to become extinct, photos did not kill paintings, that CD's did not kill LP's, etc.

However, it is reasonable to expect that there may still be a huge market for film in the poor countries where people cannot afford a digital camera or a PC, and will probably never be able to. Film has certain advantages in some applications (eg war photogs, adventurers, explorers, etc) where there is no assurance of electricity to power DSLR chargers.

Your guess is as good as mine, but even if there's no more film, an M camera will have a certain intrinsic value simply because no one makes them any more. Like samurai swords that were handcrafted by past masters, handmade M cameras will acquire an antique status and be priced accordingly.

Perhaps the same will happen to G cameras, who knows?

sabrewolf said:
If you are thinking of getting a rangefinder, don't, get a digital slr or the upcoming leica digital rangefinder instead.

Seriously, this is what I tell my friends when they are about to buy a Leica or film camera. If you really interested in getting a rangefinder you would have bought one already. It does not make any sense to buy a film camera if you are into photography for the money or just to showing off on parties. You sure as hell won't take better pictures and you'll spend more money on wasted shots.

Buy a film camera because you enjoy taking pictures, good or bad, and love the challenges that comes with film.(also you have plenty of money to spend away).
 

A generalisation like "film is expensive, digital is free" really needs to be evaluated in your personal context. If you are a pro shooting thousands of rolls a year, digital may be cheaper, but most users shoot less than 10 rolls a year.

A lot of my friends in the 30's and 40's still use film simply because they already have a camera, so it's a sunk cost. Since they shoot only kids' birthday parties and on vacation, what is the cost of one shoot? $4 for film and $10 for developing and processing. That's real cheap compared to buying a digital cam that will lose its value in no time (and still have to pay 35 cents per print). Not to mention that dropping off a roll of film at a lab and collecting the film 1 hour later or next day gives them more time to do other things, like watch movies. Leave all the problems with RAW conversion, white balance, USM, etc. to the lab.

The world is digital-- no doubt about that-- but please be aware of generalisations and myths and learn to analyse issues in your own context.
 

Well, I already have a digital system which I use for work purposes. I don't think buying another body would contribute in any way to my photography.

Despite my grudging acknoledgement that digital is so so much more convenient, I like shooting with film because starting out with film in the first place helped me to be so much more careful when shooting, even with digital. The shooting disciplines I got from shooting film still makes me hang on to film and not want to give it up. My EOS 3 still sees regular use when I want to shoot exclusively BnW or when I want wild colour from slides. I still keep the FM2 i started with for sentimental reasons.

I think film has it's own charm, which is why I truly don't mind spending more of my dollar on it.
 

Regarding M cameras, NO ONE makes them anymore?

I suppose "M cameras" refers to Leica M cameras.

Well, the M1, M2, M3, M4, M5 and M6 are no longer made.

Hmmm...................................

But wait!

I think there is the M7, and MP, and even individually configured new M cameras.

And there is the Bessa, and Zeiss Ikon, and ........

M cameras, NO ONE makes them anymore?
 

You must follow the logic. If there is no more film, I doubt Leica (or even ZI, CV, etc) will make any more film cameras. Hypothetical, of course.
 

There will be no more film - mark my words, just kidding of course, but I will not be suprised if another film maker goes under this year.

As for film being more expensive/cheaper I am of course comparing to the same number of frame shot as if you are using digital. If you are only using 4 rolls per year you might as well buy a point and shoot, digital or film, instead of an SLR or a Leica M, I believe it will be a more logical choice.
 

Fine, but note that film users do not shoot the same no of pix as Digital users. Why? Because film costs money, hence film users use it with a different attitude. Digital creates an attitude of "just shoot, it's free what", film creates the attitude "make every shot count".

CS-ers are different from the general public of course in their vol of shooting, but even I don't shoot more than 2-3 rolls per month. One should thus calculate costs properly, rather than just take sayings like "digital is cheaper than film" for granted. If you already have a film SLR and existing lenses, the cost of shooting film is just film and processing (scanning is optional-- and in any case, you can get a cheap scanner for < $100). The startup cost of digital is very high, you need to buy DSLR, mem cards, PC, hard disks, monitors, PS, new flash (assuming existing TTL flash only works for film SLR), and esp if you want to shoot fast wide angle, because you have to buy very expensive superwide lenses due to the crop factor. There are also hidden costs in post-processing, PS-ing, archiving etc. in terms of cost of time.

For the general public (< 5-10 rolls per year), film SLR is definitely more cost effective. However, if they don't need SLR quality, digital P&S is definitely a good choice, at $200 it's less than the cost of a good hotel room, and they can get pix instantly.

Anyway, to the original poster-- the max you can lose is $1,000-2,000, that's assuming your camera is completely worthless in 5 years, which I don't believe. There will always be a value for a precision handcrafted product, even if film is gone, the camera will still have a value as an antique and as a work of craftsmanship. In fact, if your camera is pristine, it may even appreciate in value over the years.

Wai Leong
===
sabrewolf said:
There will be no more film - mark my words, just kidding of course, but I will not be suprised if another film maker goes under this year.

As for film being more expensive/cheaper I am of course comparing to the same number of frame shot as if you are using digital. If you are only using 4 rolls per year you might as well buy a point and shoot, digital or film, instead of an SLR or a Leica M, I believe it will be a more logical choice.
 

Film will not die so soon, especially 35mm, unless Hollywood have change the entire format to Digital.

35mm format, to my best understand, came from Motion pictures. It is a Movie film, that they later adopt it to still camera.
 

Hollywood is beginning to venture into digital nowadays already. Check out the new digital cineplexes that have come up in SG.

To the best of my understanding, movie film is quite different from the 35mm film we use, IIRC the quality is worse.
 

I dun like the jumpy motion in film-type movies. Gives me a headache.
 

I think CCD/CMOS will definitely win film in terms of resolution, and it'll be sooner than 10years. However, film have special qualites that is hard to matched by digital. In fact at times, its the imperfections of analog that makes film that attractive. That said, go grab the G2!! ;p


alvinchuan said:
Hi Stone

IMHO I don't think the film will not phase out in the next 10 years for a simple reason.
The resolution of CCD/CMOS sensor cannot compare to film and as long there are people using it there will be film.

Why worry of financial investment? In today’s digital world, the turnover of a digital SLR is 3 to 5 years and compact is every year or two. The cost of a digital camera compare to a film can be range to 10 times and the life cycle of sensor is short. There is no value retention for digital also. In general the overall upfront investment (camera, software storage device etc..) for a digital is very high compare to film. We choose digital is because of the low running cost and for convenient.

In short, if you appreciate the quality of G2 and satisfy you with the result it produce it is already a good investment.

This article might also interest you

http://www.outdoorphotographer.com/content/2005/oct/outwiththenew.shtml

Cheers
alvin
 

Just need the $ now. I'm sold on it already ;)
 

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