Why not? If you dun believe people will be honest, you expect an answer with this thread? :dunno:
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Six figures annual income by 1st or 2nd year possible?
- Thread starter Agetan
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Why not? If you dun believe people will be honest, you expect an answer with this thread? :dunno:
In today's world, 100k a year is not a lot of money... which is about 8.33k per month...
To me, 100k is not too shabby... I would love to earn that amount.
Why not? If you dun believe people will be honest, you expect an answer with this thread? :dunno:
Precisely. I wanted to ask Agetan why he should even start this kind of flame bait thread. What sorts of answers are expected, and what's the intention? Why does it matter anyway?
But I do agree with him. No one will tell you the truth here about their earnings. So why bother asking?
All they always like to say or imply is, Photography business is tough. Think carefully before you jump into it. *yawnz* I dunno heard how many times already. Which other things in life are not important that we don't have to think carefully also....
To me, 100k is not too shabby... I would love to earn that amount.
Whether 100k is a lot or not is quite subjective.
But by doing simple math, based on how much some of the full-time professionals are charging and the amount of clients they get per year, it's not difficult to see many have hit or already exceeded this amount. They don't say only....
Precisely. I wanted to ask Agetan why he should even start this kind of flame bait thread. What sorts of answers are expected, and what's the intention?[\Quote]
my intention is to start educate photography community that a decent living is attainable and what I hope to hear from here is both side of arguments, if it doesn't work, what contribute to make one think it isn't possible.
If it is possible, how one make it possible.
Was hoping people can openly discuss the possibilties rather than being negative abt it.
I am surprise that my best intention of giving some good thought to this photography community being interprete as flaming thread.
It seems to me that many would prefer to dream on rather then helping each other to grow.
It is very sad how a simple question to entice people to think outside the square being interprete so negatively.
Maybe I should not even bother?
Hart
saracenjones
New Member
If you are a talented photographer with a unique eye, with exceptional marketing skills and a 'champion' to put you out there and promote your work, with lot's of energy and a good dose of luck, the ability to listen to a client's needs, the ability to learn from mistakes fast (as well as hide those same mistakes from clients) and have a fresh and unique vision that clients consider valuable, then yes annual revenue of SGD$100,000 and beyond is possible in the first two years of a photographer's career.
From my experience and understanding of the current market mere mortals (who make up 99% of the industry) who build solid foundations, develop a good quality network, gain the respect of clients, spend and price wisely for sustainability, who offer a superior service and produce work that is valuable, meaningful and useful for their client's, can realistically expect to generate SGD$100,000 revenue a year after working hard at it for four years (give or take!!).
The figures are for commercial photographers only (I know nothing about the wedding industry), but the recipes for growth are the same, I am sure!
Also keep in mind that we are talking about revenue, which kept isolated says little about profit. A wedding photographer who supplies physical products (like albums and prints) should expect to generate a lot higher revenues to see similar profits.
I am sure people could split hairs over a dozen things I have shared here, but this is just my view of the world, based on my experiences and from what I have observed during my eight years of full-time photography in Singapore. For full-disclosure, it took me five years to hit the SGD$100,000 mark, but I think photographers with better marketing skills that me could do a little better.
I'd love to hear other forum members share their actual experiences (instead of splitting hairs over boring tax details and speculating over possibilities without support). Surely this is what would make this forum truly valuable and good for the health of our local industry!
Rory.
EDITED COMMENTS BELOW:
OOPS!! The question posed was about INCOME, not revenue! You can tell I am a photographer! Blur as sotong!
By income, I now take this to mean profit (more or less) and so this has a big impact on how I think about this question.
My above answer for the 1% super-human photographer is the same, but I would have to seriously re-consider how long it would take to make a SGD$100,000 annual PROFIT for a photographer in Singapore. To get this kind of profit, a photographer would have to invest significant amounts of money in equipment, marketing and facilities over time, further adding to the years it would take to get to that level of profit.
My gut tells me that less than 10% of photographers in Singapore will be making over a $100,000 in annual profit (for anyone interested, including the IRAS, I am not one of them - yet!). 90% of these photographers, would have built up to this profit level over many years, not in two years.
The vast majority of Singapore photographers would be somewhere between SGD$40,000 and SGD$100,000.
Now it is me suddenly splitting hairs and speculating - oh, I am such a hypocrite!
If anyone knows more and can back their figures up much better than I can - I'd love to hear!!
www.rorydaniel.com
From my experience and understanding of the current market mere mortals (who make up 99% of the industry) who build solid foundations, develop a good quality network, gain the respect of clients, spend and price wisely for sustainability, who offer a superior service and produce work that is valuable, meaningful and useful for their client's, can realistically expect to generate SGD$100,000 revenue a year after working hard at it for four years (give or take!!).
The figures are for commercial photographers only (I know nothing about the wedding industry), but the recipes for growth are the same, I am sure!
Also keep in mind that we are talking about revenue, which kept isolated says little about profit. A wedding photographer who supplies physical products (like albums and prints) should expect to generate a lot higher revenues to see similar profits.
I am sure people could split hairs over a dozen things I have shared here, but this is just my view of the world, based on my experiences and from what I have observed during my eight years of full-time photography in Singapore. For full-disclosure, it took me five years to hit the SGD$100,000 mark, but I think photographers with better marketing skills that me could do a little better.
I'd love to hear other forum members share their actual experiences (instead of splitting hairs over boring tax details and speculating over possibilities without support). Surely this is what would make this forum truly valuable and good for the health of our local industry!
Rory.
EDITED COMMENTS BELOW:
OOPS!! The question posed was about INCOME, not revenue! You can tell I am a photographer! Blur as sotong!
By income, I now take this to mean profit (more or less) and so this has a big impact on how I think about this question.
My above answer for the 1% super-human photographer is the same, but I would have to seriously re-consider how long it would take to make a SGD$100,000 annual PROFIT for a photographer in Singapore. To get this kind of profit, a photographer would have to invest significant amounts of money in equipment, marketing and facilities over time, further adding to the years it would take to get to that level of profit.
My gut tells me that less than 10% of photographers in Singapore will be making over a $100,000 in annual profit (for anyone interested, including the IRAS, I am not one of them - yet!). 90% of these photographers, would have built up to this profit level over many years, not in two years.
The vast majority of Singapore photographers would be somewhere between SGD$40,000 and SGD$100,000.
Now it is me suddenly splitting hairs and speculating - oh, I am such a hypocrite!
If anyone knows more and can back their figures up much better than I can - I'd love to hear!!
www.rorydaniel.com
Last edited:
Hart, it is only look upon as a flame bait after you slapped yourself by saying others will not be honest about it. Which really cloud my mind what is your intention when starting this thread.
What I meant is people won't disclose their income simply because they don't want to appear showing off. I have never implied that they won't be honest abt it. So please read carefully my statement.
Once again, my intention is to make people realise that things are often not what you can see superficially. Look outside the square and that is the message that I want to make people thinking.
To be successful, don't expect to be spoon fed but it is from little questions like this I hope to help people thinking. Maybe it is my wishful thinking by helping others.
It is really take it and gain from it rather than bring negative any it.
The ball is on your court... U decide what to do with it.
Regards,
Hart
Once again, my intention is to make people realise that things are often not what you can see superficially. Look outside the square and that is the message that I want to make people thinking.
To be successful, don't expect to be spoon fed but it is from little questions like this I hope to help people thinking. Maybe it is my wishful thinking by helping others.
It is really take it and gain from it rather than bring negative any it.
The ball is on your court... U decide what to do with it.
Regards,
Hart
Yes, that is why I put Nett profit, not turn over....
In order to make a 100k profit, if one were to balance the equation right with at least 45-50% profit margin, you will need a minimum $250k turn over to make $100k profit.
To make $250k turn over, you will need a plan for $21k turn over each month, which equate to about 5-6k a week which is about $800-$1k a day or $100-$110 per hour assuming 8 hours working day... minimum.
If you break it down like this, it is not so impossible isn't it? One question to ask is, are you charging enough to start with?
In today's world, 100k a year is not a lot of money... which is about 8.33k per month...
If you have a solid business plan... it is not probable... and you don't have to bluff yourself.
Hart
wah, even 45-50% profit margin is very very high. no matter how much i cut cost and stinge on daily ops, the best i could do was about 35% nett for my office in SG.
Precisely. I wanted to ask Agetan why he should even start this kind of flame bait thread. What sorts of answers are expected, and what's the intention?[\Quote]
my intention is to start educate photography community that a decent living is attainable and what I hope to hear from here is both side of arguments, if it doesn't work, what contribute to make one think it isn't possible.
If it is possible, how one make it possible.
Was hoping people can openly discuss the possibilties rather than being negative abt it.
I am surprise that my best intention of giving some good thought to this photography community being interprete as flaming thread.
It seems to me that many would prefer to dream on rather then helping each other to grow.
It is very sad how a simple question to entice people to think outside the square being interprete so negatively.
Maybe I should not even bother?
Hart
Jed disappeared after the 3rd post after saying it's possible but never follow up. What does that tell u?
time to let go bro......nobody in their right mind will tell u how it works for them. Not in this forum anyway
What I meant is people won't disclose their income simply because they don't want to appear showing off. I have never implied that they won't be honest abt it. So please read carefully my statement.
Once again, my intention is to make people realise that things are often not what you can see superficially. Look outside the square and that is the message that I want to make people thinking.
To be successful, don't expect to be spoon fed but it is from little questions like this I hope to help people thinking. Maybe it is my wishful thinking by helping others.
It is really take it and gain from it rather than bring negative any it.
The ball is on your court... U decide what to do with it.
Regards,
Hart
Maybe we all misinterpret your statement on the part where you said not one will seriously raise their hand on their income.
We did have a thread that people are sharing how much they charge per wedding though they did not tell how many they did per year. But that is becos no one really asked.
Not too sure about the part where you think people are showing off if they are disclosing their income.
Alot will depend on your initial capital outlay and your accounting methods (how fast your depreciation is)
Also it may be better to say $100k in profit rather than income since we choose how much income to pay ourselves and how much of the profits to channel back into the business right?
I'm not sure whether $100k profit is really possible from the upfront after factoring in initial costs.
$100k income is not a big deal for quite a number of photographers after a few years once the capital costs are covered.
btw, I'm sure Agetan had no intention of flamebaiting and this is an interesting topic to explore, so let's not get our guns out...
Also it may be better to say $100k in profit rather than income since we choose how much income to pay ourselves and how much of the profits to channel back into the business right?
I'm not sure whether $100k profit is really possible from the upfront after factoring in initial costs.
$100k income is not a big deal for quite a number of photographers after a few years once the capital costs are covered.
btw, I'm sure Agetan had no intention of flamebaiting and this is an interesting topic to explore, so let's not get our guns out...
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Hart, it's good to know of your good intentions to "help people grow".
But I think the way you approach it is not realistic and not properly thought out.
Were you expecting some professional photographers to come forward and say,
yes, I did earn $100k in my first 1 or 2 years. So by that fact, you see it as a way to motivate or encourage new photographers to jump into the bandwagon?
I see how this can hardly be the case, because:
1. No one will ever discuss their salary here. As if you haven't realized many pros here are trying to guard their "territories" well, let alone tell you how much they earn. (But like I said, doing simple math, you can get a good guesstimate how much they earn.)
2. Whether or not you can earn $100k in the first 1-2 years has nothing to do with motivating newcomers. In fact, you are only creating the opposite. Giving them false hopes into jumping into the trade just cos of the money. Isn't that what most pros strongly advise against?
3. You mentioned in one of your posts it's unlikely the pros will reveal their income. Then why ask the question in the first place? I'm smelling some other hidden agendas?
4. You have probably overestimated the usefulness of such threads in CS. Let's face it. Photography is a competitive (and somewhat sensitive) business here. Look at the previous threads. They always end up with more ambiguity and discouragement than really helping anyone. And in worse cases, they have become flame baits.
But I think the way you approach it is not realistic and not properly thought out.
Were you expecting some professional photographers to come forward and say,
yes, I did earn $100k in my first 1 or 2 years. So by that fact, you see it as a way to motivate or encourage new photographers to jump into the bandwagon?
I see how this can hardly be the case, because:
1. No one will ever discuss their salary here. As if you haven't realized many pros here are trying to guard their "territories" well, let alone tell you how much they earn. (But like I said, doing simple math, you can get a good guesstimate how much they earn.)
2. Whether or not you can earn $100k in the first 1-2 years has nothing to do with motivating newcomers. In fact, you are only creating the opposite. Giving them false hopes into jumping into the trade just cos of the money. Isn't that what most pros strongly advise against?
3. You mentioned in one of your posts it's unlikely the pros will reveal their income. Then why ask the question in the first place? I'm smelling some other hidden agendas?
4. You have probably overestimated the usefulness of such threads in CS. Let's face it. Photography is a competitive (and somewhat sensitive) business here. Look at the previous threads. They always end up with more ambiguity and discouragement than really helping anyone. And in worse cases, they have become flame baits.
Guys...
As an outsider (I am not a Singaporean), I have failed to see the unity people here (photographers) who is willing to help each other.
I created this thread so whoever contribute to this thread would benefit from it.
I do not need to know how to make it happen as I have done it since my second year, nearly make it on my first year here in Singapore. I don't know anyone, I don't have any contacts and Singapore is a foreign country to me then, I am not a celebrity, I am not from rich family that has lots of contact... It was a pure hard work that make it happen.
If an outsider could see the possibility and make it happen, I am surprise that people here just being so negative about opportunities that this country has to offer.
My intention is hoping to get you guys the information you need to help you guys to reach that. It is all for you and I am disappointed that the outcome shows that no one cares about anyone. I do not give people false hope but would give people another look at the possibilities, that is all. Yes, I do against people to jump into bandwagon because of money. But on the contrary, I do expect people to see the possibilities and respect photographer a bit more.
I have nothing to say and I don't see the need to continue on letting this thread develop as it will go no where.
Photography like any business is competitive... but it doesn't mean that everyone have to turn their back on everyone to stay on the business. When photographers choose to co-exist, there are more to gain than to lose... but I just don't see that happen here.
I should re-evaluate my time spend here contributing.
Regards,
Hart
As an outsider (I am not a Singaporean), I have failed to see the unity people here (photographers) who is willing to help each other.
I created this thread so whoever contribute to this thread would benefit from it.
I do not need to know how to make it happen as I have done it since my second year, nearly make it on my first year here in Singapore. I don't know anyone, I don't have any contacts and Singapore is a foreign country to me then, I am not a celebrity, I am not from rich family that has lots of contact... It was a pure hard work that make it happen.
If an outsider could see the possibility and make it happen, I am surprise that people here just being so negative about opportunities that this country has to offer.
My intention is hoping to get you guys the information you need to help you guys to reach that. It is all for you and I am disappointed that the outcome shows that no one cares about anyone. I do not give people false hope but would give people another look at the possibilities, that is all. Yes, I do against people to jump into bandwagon because of money. But on the contrary, I do expect people to see the possibilities and respect photographer a bit more.
I have nothing to say and I don't see the need to continue on letting this thread develop as it will go no where.
Photography like any business is competitive... but it doesn't mean that everyone have to turn their back on everyone to stay on the business. When photographers choose to co-exist, there are more to gain than to lose... but I just don't see that happen here.
I should re-evaluate my time spend here contributing.
Regards,
Hart
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What I meant is people won't disclose their income simply because they don't want to appear showing off. I have never implied that they won't be honest abt it. So please read carefully my statement.
To be successful, don't expect to be spoon fed but it is from little questions like this I hope to help people thinking. Maybe it is my wishful thinking by helping others.
The ball is on your court... U decide what to do with it.
Regards,
Hart
1. Contradiction! I don't think my English is that poor right?! How can people be honest about their pay, and at the same time, "won't disclose their pay". So will they or will they not disclose their pay??? I'm confused.
2. Who expects to be spoonfed? I notice this is an assumption some pros have made here. There are many people who have the desire to learn and work hard at it. But the Singapore environment is not conducive. We don't have any competent or well-known photography teachers here who will or can disclose their techniques and skills. All they ever emphasize is mainly the business aspect only.
Between teaching and earning money directly from their trade, I think a lot prefer to do the latter. Easier to earn and it's something they already know best. It also could be they lack the expertise to teach. (Think football: Maradonna may be a gifted soccer player, but as a coach, some say he just doesn't have it.)
3. Yes yes! Ball is in anyone's court. So who cares whether a photographer can earn $100k or not in the first few years? Anything is possible. And even if there are such photographers around, so what? Does it imply everyone can or should emulate their footsteps?
Hart,
I feel your disappointment.
1. As if you haven't known the singapore culture (and how CS threads on Going into photography have been responded) having stayed here for some time?
2. If as a pro, you wish to help others, I think it's better for you to come up with your own experiences in detail on how you did earn $x amount of money in x amount of years. Better still, draw up a plan on teaching others and imparting your knowledge and photography skills so that we have more and better photographers here.
Starting a thread here will not help at all. Pls go read other similar posts asking your kind of questions umpteen times. None turned out well or proved immensely useful.
This is Singapore and we are far from ready to have people ready to be sharing. When I said sharing, I don't necessarily mean for free. So don't get me wrong on that. Something which some pros often assumed so they give the reason that people expect to be spoonfed. But they are really trying to cover up their inability or unwillingness to openly share their trade.
I feel your disappointment.
1. As if you haven't known the singapore culture (and how CS threads on Going into photography have been responded) having stayed here for some time?
2. If as a pro, you wish to help others, I think it's better for you to come up with your own experiences in detail on how you did earn $x amount of money in x amount of years. Better still, draw up a plan on teaching others and imparting your knowledge and photography skills so that we have more and better photographers here.
Starting a thread here will not help at all. Pls go read other similar posts asking your kind of questions umpteen times. None turned out well or proved immensely useful.
This is Singapore and we are far from ready to have people ready to be sharing. When I said sharing, I don't necessarily mean for free. So don't get me wrong on that. Something which some pros often assumed so they give the reason that people expect to be spoonfed. But they are really trying to cover up their inability or unwillingness to openly share their trade.
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