Should a New User still buy a Micro Four Thirds Camera?

[JW73]

There are many capable systems out there to choose from nowadays . If one is concerned with the resale value of M43 because of the negative news recently, i would not recommend M43. But if one is looking for certain advantages & uniqueness of m43 and do not mind the bleak future of m43. There are many good lenses to choose from that can give the photographer room to be creative. If a friend is taking up photography & ask my opinion, m43 will not be my first choice to him/her.

 

[felixcat8888]

I will still recommend friends to get the m43 system, the only reason is the portability and the wonderful m43 lenses from the manufacturers.

I bought a New Old Stock Panasonic GX8 w/12-35/2.8 lens, a 5-year old model, from Harvey Norman Online in May 2020 for a good price. That was phase 1, I bought extended warranty for both GX8 and the 12-35/2.8. This should cover me for the next 5 years. I just got myself a Panasonic-Leica 12-60/2.8-4 last week too.

I also got the Panasonic-Leica 25/1.4 II and I love the bokeh though it is not the same as my FF F1.2 bokeh. All these for travel as it is light enough for my usage. I own the Pentax FF K1 and APS-C KP and mini Q7 as well.

 

[Pitachu]

Yes, it is important to understand the needs of anyone who ask for recommendations on what to get.

For people who are into portraits (with good bokeh) and without compression (face look more 3D and lifelike) or those who want extreme resolution or dynamic range, I will recommend them to get a Full Frame.

For those who just want to have a camera beyond what a mobile phone can do (eg. Aperture control etc) but still want a portable system, I would recommend a good compact eg. Sony RX100 or a M43 system. For those who want long tele but without budget for FF super teles, I also recommend to them M43 system too.

For those who are into videos, the M43 GH5 is a good choice as it has some very capable lenses for video (eg. Pana 10-27 F1.7) for low light and constant aperture. I don't think there is any FF lenses covering 20 to 50mm (great for indoors) with a F1.7 aperture. Those with lots of budget can look at the Canon R5 or Sony A7S iii etc, but FF tend to have overheat issues.

For those into vlogging, can look at the recent Sony ZV1 or Panasonic G100.

Just an observation, I can sense the manufacturers are slowly shifting their attention to Video, including JIP who took over Olympus.

Though it is a caution to take, I personally think that M43 will still be around for 3 to 5 years easily as there is still a lot of development of cameras and lenses for M43 (look at the latest Pansonic BGH1 video cam with a M43 mount).

 

[ricohflex]

Actually price is a big factor.

If a camera which used to sell for $X is now sold (brand new) at $0.3X. Then buy it.
Regardless of whether MFT or not. At that price reduction, it does not matter.

For the average person who is not looking into building a system over many years but just want something to use for 5 years.
That user can buy something new 5 years later (improved technology by then).

Let's say a camera model/set used to cost you $5000 but is sold now at $1500. (Fictional example)
You use it for 5 years. That is $300 per year of usage. Quite reasonable.

The clearance sale prices of some (brand new) Olympus MFT gear is now becoming attractive.

If Panasonic announces an APS-C model with L mount, you know what that means.
If that happens, there may be a future clearance sale of brand new Panasonic MFT gear.

 

[Blu-By-U]

New users, Don't buy Olympus cameras. According to richoflex, get a Sony. Get the FF version and for lenses, get those zeiss. They are just HUGE, heavy and will show that you are a real camera user. Also must make sure you get those Made in Japan lenses and bodies. those made outside of Japan are all cut throat sub standard stuff. Even if you decide to get the red dot stuff, must make sure they are german make and not those rebadge cut throat substitute.

Not to forget sign up for a gym. you must build those muscle to be able to carry all your gears.

So have fun. Photography is not for wimps.

But I admit that I am a wimp. I love and will recommend OM-D and mft stuff to new users as they can enjoy photography without the weight.

 

[Pitachu]

One must be practical when choosing photo gear.
My friend just bought a Fujifilm medium format. I ask him why and he said the 50mp of the Fujifilm beats the 61mp of the Sony A7 R4 (probably due to larger pixels, less noise). But that is for his studio use. I dont think it is practical to bring the Fujifilm medium format for a tour. Same for Full Frames. I have tried bringing FF for tours where I have to walk 6 to 8 hours a day, and the feeling is terrible (for someone above 50 . And I enjoyed myself a lot with my M43 with 3 lenses all in a waist pouch. A couple of my tour kakis are amazed when I pull out a tiny 75-300 lens (600mm reach) from my waist pouch and took some tiny interesting critters far away!!!!!

What I am saying is there is a niche for every camera format. That is why there are ppl who use Go Pro and Compact Tough Cameras. My brother let his young toddlers play with his Olympus Tough to take pictures for one another on beach, beside the pool etc. I dont think you dare to do that with your Full Frame

So, for those who keep promoting FF, dont be too obsessed with one Format and condemn the rest of the formats like M43. It's just that you have not found the niche for that format.

 

[Blu-By-U]

Pitachu, I am sure you are not that ancient.

I have seen people with MF up Huanglong photographing the scenery. But then again, he did have 3 potters to carry the gears for him

I was with a group of photographers on a Mt Bromo hike. All different gears. An old gentleman really put me to shame almost 10 years my senior, had 2 nikon FF and so many lenses. He had to hire a potter but the climb was no joke. I was the last in the pack. So it really depends on what you want.

Take ricohflex for instant, to him, it's nothing but a Sony FF.

 

[JW73]

If Panasonic abandon M43 mount, what make them think that the existing m43 users will switch to their FF mount or the wild guessed APSC (L mount)? One has to rebuild the system from scratch.

There are so many such (FF/APSC) mounts and choices already. I personally will just go back to the Fuji X if i do not need FF. Fuji now has the IBIS in their new mid-range body. The attraction of m43 system to me is their choices of pro and high quality lenses from lumix and OM company (JIP).

 

[Pitachu]

Panasonic will not abandon the M43 mount and focus on the FF mount,
because Panasonic is really not doing well with the FF mount.
After all, in the FF areana Sony is very strong with the A7Siii and Canon with the R5.

There is still a huge following of Panasonic GH series with the M43 mount.

I predict the day when Panasonic abadon the M43 mount, it will abandon its Digital Imaging Division altogether.

If Panasonic abandon M43 mount, what make them think that the existing m43 users will switch to their FF mount or the wild guessed APSC (L mount)?

There are so many such mounts and choices already. I personally will just go back to the Fuji X if i do not need FF.

 

[Pitachu]

Ha Ha! You are right, I am not that ancient.

I was on a trip to LiJiang and almost all of us carry a FF or APSC SLR, including myself. No problem, we can all lug our gear even up YuLongXueShan as everyone is walking very slowly taking lots of pictures. But on other casual trips where almost all my hiking Kakis are carry a mobile phone as camera, a much lighter camera set up is needed!

Pitachu, I am sure you are not that ancient.

I have seen people with MF up Huanglong photographing the scenery. But then again, he did have 3 potters to carry the gears for him

I was with a group of photographers on a Mt Bromo hike. All different gears. An old gentleman really put me to shame almost 10 years my senior, had 2 nikon FF and so many lenses. He had to hire a potter but the climb was no joke. I was the last in the pack. So it really depends on what you want.

Take ricohflex for instant, to him, it's nothing but a Sony FF.

 

[swifty]

If Panasonic abandon M43 mount, what make them think that the existing m43 users will switch to their FF mount or the wild guessed APSC (L mount)? One has to rebuild the system from scratch.

There are so many such (FF/APSC) mounts and choices already. I personally will just go back to the Fuji X if i do not need FF. Fuji now has the IBIS in their new mid-range body. The attraction of m43 system to me is their choices of pro and high quality lenses from lumix and OM company (JIP).

I think that’s a good question.
If Panasonic doesn’t provide an easy pathway to upgrade from m43, what incentives would Panasonic m43 users, or m43 users in general have to move to L-mount? In fact there could be some backlash to the abandonment
Unfortunately I think they boxed themselves in with L-mount cos whilst an m43->L adapter may be technically possible, it’s a very difficult adapter to make.

With 3 other competing FF/APS-C mounts occupying a mammoth triopoly, starting from scratch L-mount is up against:
1) most established (Sony)
2) most potential (Z mount)
3) largest (Canon overall is larger than Nikon and Sony combined and they’re just getting started in RF)

If we add in the very strong APS-C only X-mount then the competition for m43 users (if m43 is abandoned), is even stiffer.

The only thing I can really think of is FF video but then Panasonic betting on DFD is a risky gamble when OSPDAF is already proven.

I still think L-mount is a mistake by Panasonic. If they wanted to do FF, they should’ve made a mount with the same electronic protocols as m43 but in a large enough mount to make pass-through adapters feasible. Then it’s a no-brainer to migrate your m43 users to the new mount as their lenses would work perfectly and you’d have a new system catering to both FF and m43 sized sensors, which is a better separation than FF/APS-C IMO.

 

[swifty]

Hindsight is always 20:20. But let's for a moment imagine if Panasonic went with their own mount, rather than join L-mount.
Let's call it P-mount for lack of a better name and let's borrow the Z-mount's specifications at 16mm flange-back and 55mm diameter.
The electronic protocols would mimic m43 so a pass through adapter could be easily made. The new P-mount would in addition add a few more pins for some added communication protocols if necessary but essentially it's pin-for-pin identical to m43 so no translation is necessary between the mounts.

The new P-mount cameras would be offered in FF, APS-C and a 2X crop size that I'm gonna call quarter-frame (QF) so as to not confuse it with m43 mount gear.
P-mount camera will be offered with a m43->P-mount adapter PWP for a very low fee, let's say $50USD or something like that.

The new P-mount partnership will be with Sigma only but Panasonic continues to be the technology supplier to Leica (no changes there). They may even offer a L->P smart adapter at some point.

Panasonic will make cameras and lenses in FF and QF formats initially.
The initial lineup of QF lenses are identical to existing m43 Panasonic lenses except in P-mount. They will be like any Panasonic m43 lens with a P-mount adapter bolted on so they will have a full lineup of QF lenses for P-mount from the get-go.
The new QF format P-mount bodies will be the next generation successors to the G9, GH5, G95, GX9, G100 etc. I do think this lineup needs to be rationalized and cut down but all I mean is m43 evolves into QF P-mount for Panasonic.
Sigma will make Fovean-sensor cameras and lenses in FF and APS-C.

As P-mount lenses fill up to include a full lineup of FF, APS-C and QF lenses then Panasonic and Sigma can segregate each format to target specific niches.
FF for greatest range, variety and outright performance.
APS-C for compact and value for money
QF for high MP-density, high speed and/or outright smallest niches.

This way there's an upgrade path for m43 users, particularly Panasonic users that doesn't render their existing equipment unuseable on the latest bodies whilst preserving some of the niche that m43 users like about m43.

 

[Blu-By-U]

That may create another problem. Will the current mft light circle be big enough for the P-mount FF sensor? Those native P lenses will be huge. Will the tiny QF be able to comfortably use them? If this is a way that Panny decides to go, it would be better for them to create an adapter for their FF to use the current mft lenses but cropped down to the x2 So those who wants to adopt the new bodies, can just get that adapter but loose the full use of the FF sensor and buy a native lens later.

 

[swifty]

That may create another problem. Will the current mft light circle be big enough for the P-mount FF sensor?

It wouldn't. The current m43 lenses are only guaranteed to have an image circle large enough for the m43 (or QF) sensors.

Those native P lenses will be huge. Will the tiny QF be able to comfortably use them?

Native P lenses can be large or small. It would depend on if it was intended to cover FF or QF sensors. My initial proposal for lenses covering QF is basically a mount swap on the current m43 lenses so they'd be exactly the same size plus and extra bit at the mount area.
In terms of the camera, it can also be any size again. It can be a small rangefinder style all the way up to large unibody style and it can house a FF or QF sensor.

If this is a way that Panny decides to go, it would be better for them to create an adapter for their FF to use the current mft lenses but cropped down to the x2 So those who wants to adopt the new bodies, can just get that adapter but loose the full use of the FF sensor and buy a native lens later.

I'm just playing armchair CEO, Panasonic has already made their choice with L-mount.
But that is exactly what I'm proposing. But I may not have described it very well.
They make the m43->P-mount adapter, as well as make the same m43 lenses with a P-mount swap so newcomers or those committed to P-mount would buy lenses native to that mount rather than in m43 mount and using the adapter.

 

[swifty]

I think what I’m describing is sometimes difficult to visualise so I’ll make some hypothetical models based on the calendar of events for L-mount alliance.

So instead we have a P-mount alliance announced in September 2018 with Panasonic and Sigma.
At the outset we get 4 models announced and one adapter.
P1 - FF 24MP all rounder
P1R - FF 47MP high resolution
P1S - FF 24MP video-centric model
PQ1 - QF 20MP (G9 internals)
M43->P mount adapter.

All models except P1S have the same body design based on an upgraded Panasonic G9. P1S gets a more video centric body with additional active cooling and gets shipped later.

A FF lens roadmap for P-Mount gets released up til end of 2020.

Panasonic also announces development of the 10-25 f/1.7 for QF as well as all of Panasonic’s m43 lenses will be made available in P-Mount natively.

From Sept 2018-April 2019, Panasonic concentrates on getting the announced bodies and lenses shipped for P-Mount

April 2019
PQ5, mid-size 20MP QF sensor model.

May 2019
Panasonic releases the 10-25 f/1.7 in P and m43 mount.

June 2019
P1S gets released.

June 2020
PQ7 Vlogging QF camera in a small body.

September 2020
P5 FF mid-sized camera based on the PQ5 body.

October 2020
PQ1S, successor to the GH5 gets released. Same body as the P1S. QF sensor with a resolution bump to 6000 pixels on the long side for 6K video.

So by the end of 2020, Panasonic will have 4 body types covering 2 formats.

Bodies
FF:
P1
P1R
P1S
P5

QF:
PQ1
PQ1S
PQ5
PQ7

A m43->P-Mount adapter

Lenses:
FF:
16-35 f/4
20-60 f/3.5-5.6
24-70 f/2.8
24-105 f/4
50 f/1.4
70-200 f/4
70-200 f/2.8

QF:
Panasonic’s entire m43 lineup natively in P mount.

It should be clear enough what each hypothetical P-mount camera replaces in the real world.
I think that would be far more attractive a system to m43 buyers, not just from Panasonic.
And I haven’t even gotten started on Sigma yet.

 

[ricohflex]

Not anybody can succeed when they introduce a new mount.
Samsung tried with NX mount and failed.
Nikon tried with 1-Mount and failed.
Olympus tried Four Thirds mount and failed.
Olympus tried Micro Four Thirds mount and failed again.

Why some succeed and some fail can be attributed to a multitude of reasons.
For fans of respective mounts, no need to react angrily.
Not saying the mount that failed is lousy.
But just that somehow as far as world wide market share and sales prove, most people do not wish to buy it.
Maybe because consumers think a camera system of a certain mount is too expensive for what it is.
Or maybe the timing is not right.

That is probably why companies join a mount alliance.
On their own, they do not have enough history/finance/weight/panache/technical prowess to pull it off and succeed.
Panasonic joined L mount alliance.

Pentax, Fuji, Sony, Canon and Nikon can go solo on their mounts.
Canon and Nikon have made it clear they want to grow their RF and ZF mounts.

Mount alliance is not fool proof.
You may be able to mount the lens of a different brand but sometimes certain features are not accessible.
This shows that within a mount alliance, each partner wishes to protect their own turf.

 

[swifty]

Yes, of course the success of a mount will depend on its attractiveness to users.

Part of that is a migration path from previous users with certain attachment to the brand.
Nikon Z has an F-Mount user base to draw from.
Canon RF has an EF and EOS-M user base.
Sony already largely migrated their Alpha mount user base which in itself largely came from Minolta. Being most established in mirrorless their head start can also pick off users from other mounts because new mounts are at its most vulnerable in the beginning when proliferating the system.

The problem with L-mount is the technical specs cut off (or make it very difficult) a migration path from m43 if Panasonic’s goal is to migrate their m43 users. If not where are they going to get their users from. The few aspiring Leica fans? Panasonic are not Leica and cannot play the low volume high price luxury game.
Are they going to siphon from the big 3? If so, how are they going to achieve that? What incentive is there to go L alliance if it means starting afresh?
As I’ve said before they are up against
- most established
- most potential
- largest by a wide margin

A Panasonic alliance should really start with an as versatile as possible mount. After all if they want to alliance with a lens manufacturer, that would be what the lens manufacturer would want.
And at least provide an incentive to your existing customer. Since Olympus are exiting and the new buyers are still unknowns largely, not providing a migration path from m43 also cut off potential Olympus customers.
Combined, m43 still make up a sizeable volume.

 

[ricohflex]

Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Sony are eyeing the Olympus MFT users.

Sony made a small size A70C full frame to entice Olympus MFT users.
Sony also made ZV-1 for those who like video blogging in a small package.
Nikon has its APS-C Z50 on the Z mount to entice Olympus MFT users.
Fuji has XT4 with IBIS and budget X-S10 with IBIS to entice Olympus MFT users.

Canon seems to be the most confused of the 4.
(because it wants to bet on everything, in case one turns out unexpectedly to be a winner).
Canon has EF-S mount, EF-M mount, EF mount, RF mount currently in use.

Canon just launched EF-M mount M50 Mk2. (APS-C)
But at same time Canon makes a M6 Mk2, also EF-M mount. (APS-C)
Canon is not ready to kill its M50 series cash cow. The built-in viewfinder is important.

Not sure if Canon will make (APS-C) body in RF mount, like Nikon, Sony and Leica have done for their Z, E and L mounts.
But it seems demand is high for R5 and R6.

 

[Blu-By-U]

Let them EYE. unless they can give better features, then can keep eyeing. As for me, I have my trust in the OM-D and Panny. Along the way, there is already other companies that are showing interesting signs in the very bright future.

If your eyes are already clouded by the other brands, please feel free to go there. Just Go.

 

[swifty]

Well of course they're eyeing. The competition is fierce in a declining market so of course every manufacturer would want to woo potential new customers to get some growth.
If Panasonic isn't doing all they can to attract those Olympus customers, then I don't know what they're doing. Half the battle is already won as those said customers are already using m43 and one would imagine, know the benefits to the system.