Rob Galbraith's analysis on 1DMk4 AF performance

[WooZY]

Incorrect. What you don't know is that those in the professional end of the game quite often spend vastly more than amateurs do on gear over a working lifetime. Most of us have no choice but to update regularly and frequently due to the levels of abuse metered out to our equipment. Next, Singapore is an abnormal society when it comes to Photography, no other location on earth that I have been to (and that's a hell of lot mate), has such a high proportion of Pro level bodies in amateur hands, even in Japan I'd suspect the levels are lower (educated guess). As camera manufacturers do not release sales figures for individual bodies your statement is untennable at best and Bull$hit at worst. The average sub 1.5K amateur body probably contributes about 1/20th of the money to the R&D budget of a professional body and I'd estimate that globally 85-90% of professional bodies and long lenses are in the hands of professional photographers, not in the hands of amateurs.

Secondly I do not feel smug about it. It peaves me no end to see people who would normally be intelligent rational beings fall in the the most basic trap of the photographic industry, gear wankerism. It doesn't just apply in the amateur ranks, there are plenty of professionals who fall in to this category as well.

Thirdly, you need to learn a bit about the way a person advances in photgraphy. Gear measurebation has been with the industry (including amateurs) as long as it's been in existance. However since the advent of the Web the level of wankery has increased exponentially each year. The reasons for this are simple and closely follow the accepted "ages of reason". I'm going to assume you don't know what they are and educate you a bit about it and photgraphers in general.

When you are absolutely new you know nothing so the whole world is an eye-opener. This applies to any new hobby or indeed facet of life. It's nearest equivalent in the ages of reason is the baby.

Next comes the aquisition of basic thinking skills and some spatial skills. This is akin to a newbie photographer making their first attempts at photography and coming to grips with the fundamentals such as exposure, lighting concepts and the basic technology of shooting.

Skip a couple of stages and you get to the age of youth. This in real life is where everything is very black and white, you THINK you know it a lot and your reasoning is it's either right or wrong. This is the same as the gear wankery / measurebator mindset with one noticable difference. Knowing about equipment specifications is the easiest part of photography. Comprende, it's simple, it's black and white and it doesn't require you to know very much about anything, just be able to regurgitate other views and accept them as the truth and nothing but the truth.

Few amateurs (and some professionals) ever really get much beyond the gear wankery stage, those that do discover enlightenment, where they come to realise the greatest truth of the whole photographic world. Equipment doesn't matter a damn 99.9% of the time. What matters is your ability to extract the maximum out of what you have got and any resonable quality camera or lens is capable of exquisite work in the right hands.

You are the one who needs to learn some respect, not me.

Capice?

first of all, I am not the one who prioritises good photography over an interest in techonology. I do not attach a price tag to interest like you do. I respect what people like. This is an EQUIPMENT forum. gearheads come here to get their fix. So do people interested in photography yes. but this is where tech specs are discussed.

"What matters is your ability to extract the maximum out of what you have got and any resonable quality camera or lens is capable of exquisite work in the right hands"

You know what? you didnt get the point of what I was saying. all i am saying is this. this may peeve you, but respect that people have different interests and dont go around waving your pro photographer tag and saying they are 5 year olds who need to grow up. sure, there is no way anyone can find fault in the oh-you-need-to-learn-how-to-take-pictures statement. But why are you finding fault with the oh i love techonology and i am a gearhead rant? You think taking photos and being happy about picture composition is superior to an appreciation of specs and techonology? so whos the smug one? who is calling who a bunch of 5 year olds? who needs to learn respect? this is a difference in opinion. no need to call names. appreciate others' interests before you jump in. if it peeves you. say so. there is scarcely need to insult others

second,

"What you don't know is that those in the professional end of the game quite often spend vastly more than amateurs do on gear over a working lifetime. "

that is true, but like you said, both you and I dont have sales figures. for every professional other there, there are maybe, 10, 20 hobbyists and that number is increasingly rapidly as people become more affluent and prices come down. this is an educated guess, but looking at the line up, and how camera makers are scrambling to capture the masses, you get at least an inkling of the idea that at least that is a crucial area of the market

Third

"The reasons for this are simple and closely follow the accepted "ages of reason""

the ages of reason... listen. dont go telling people what to do or what reason is. and besides this isnt about reason. it is about people appreciating tech specs in a equipment forum. it is about different interests. respect that instead of sinking down to name calling.

so who is the imperialistic one? waltzing in here and calling everyone 5 yr olds?

 

[night86mare]

I do feel it is a waste of effort debating canon systems with non canon fanboys who do not have extensive love for the system.

:bsmilie:

so sad. :thumbsup:

 

[night86mare]

It doesn't matter a single shred which body is the fastest, it's not like 99.9% of you are ever going to push a camera even close to its limits, especially most of the gear measurebators who do nothing but bellyache, whine, pout and whinge about everything that really doesn't matter where a camera system is concerned.

:thumbsup: that's true.

but you should really see the way some people "push" their fps when shooting inanimate objects, it's amazing. :bsmilie:

 

[riotvan]

:thumbsup: that's true.

but you should really see the way some people "push" their fps when shooting inanimate objects, it's amazing. :bsmilie:

they got shutter sound fetish :bsmilie:

 

[night86mare]

you forget too quickly and readily that it is the hobbyist/gearhead that purchases more cameras, more often than the professional. in short, the masses of stupid consumers and gearheads you are whining, pouting and bellyaching about are canon's loyal 'fanbase'. they contribute more in terms of R&D funds that you have,. so what if they stir up a ruckus about some strange spec in the camera? they do so because that is what they are interested in. thats all. while you on the other hand, prefer to don the holy mantle of the pro photographer and peer down on every 5 yr old school child and feel smug about yourself.

this is like saying:

you're right, we're idiots, but we're contributing idiots who gives more money to the company, so the company should listen to us.

it just proves ian's point, actually. he was just making a statement that most hobbyists DO NOT need to use pro spec cameras. i won't disagree with him in that aspect.

 

[night86mare]

that is true, but like you said, both you and I dont have sales figures. for every professional other there, there are maybe, 10, 20 hobbyists and that number is increasingly rapidly as people become more affluent and prices come down. this is an educated guess, but looking at the line up, and how camera makers are scrambling to capture the masses, you get at least an inkling of the idea that at least that is a crucial area of the market

yeah, the camera companies are soon going to endorse the gearheads who spend a lot.

no more "this is xxx. he shoots in the antartica."

or "this is xxx. he is a a sports photographer."

complete with pictures of the professional's shots.

next up, we will have:

"this is xxx. he BBBs. and he's proud of it. you should be too." :bsmilie::bsmilie:

and then what are they going to use? badly DI'ed model photographs? :bsmilie:

 

[Jed]

you forget too quickly and readily that it is the hobbyist/gearhead that purchases more cameras, more often than the professional.

Actually, for a camera like the one being discussed here, I'd be fairly confident it is the professional that purchases more cameras. If you're talking turnover in general, then yes sales of entry level to mid level cameras account for more sales than professional models, but strictly speaking for professional models such as the 1D Mk IV I believe that the professional purchases outstrip the hobbyist/gearhead purchasers.

This would be a general comment, not a Singapore one where I am quite sure the normal situation is reversed and you are correct.

 

[WooZY]

this is like saying:

you're right, we're idiots, but we're contributing idiots who gives more money to the company, so the company should listen to us.

it just proves ian's point, actually. he was just making a statement that most hobbyists DO NOT need to use pro spec cameras. i won't disagree with him in that aspect.

yea thats true. most hobbyists dont need top of the line stuff. but hey if you have the money, why not chip in into the canon help-make-canon-better-than-nikon R&D fund? (or vice versa) haha

basically a company seeks profits (to varying degrees but no money=die). and to do that they either manufacture or meet needs. if people want/buy more megapixels/pro cameras, theres nth wrong with it really. no need to trample on them. like here in cambridge, chinese tourists walk around with friggin d700s and mark 3s.

wth. seriously. jealous max but oh well. i would hate such a heavy cam. love my hand me down 400d

 

[Jed]

next up, we will have:

"this is xxx. he BBBs. and he's proud of it. you should be too." :bsmilie::bsmilie:

and then what are they going to use? badly DI'ed model photographs? :bsmilie:

That's a good marketing line if ever I saw one

Forget badly DI'ed model photographs though, open box review images are clearly the way forward!

I'm just waiting for someone to come up with a closed box review.

 

[night86mare]

yea thats true. most hobbyists dont need top of the line stuff. but hey if you have the money, why not chip in into the canon help-make-canon-better-than-nikon R&D fund? (or vice versa) haha

basically a company seeks profits (to varying degrees but no money=die). and to do that they either manufacture or meet needs. if people want/buy more megapixels/pro cameras, theres nth wrong with it really. no need to trample on them. like here in cambridge, chinese tourists walk around with friggin d700s and mark 3s.

no, you are missing the point.

there is a difference between:

1) telling people what to do with their money, they should buy whatever they want

2) pointing out that what they buy is not useful to them

as far as i'm concerned, ian is doing the second. now, we all have minds, and humans are judgemental creatures. i'm not sure it's very wrong to do #2. :dunno:

 

[night86mare]

That's a good marketing line if ever I saw one

Forget badly DI'ed model photographs though, open box review images are clearly the way forward!

I'm just waiting for someone to come up with a closed box review.

oh yeah.. that would really embrace the gearwhore party line.

well, badly di'ed model photographs would attract the other crowd, you know.. the one that picks up photography in the hopes of getting some with models, or picturing it in their heads everytime they attend a mass shootout. :devil:

i can imagine the open box review already, by the gearwhore:

"even the box the camera is in is absolutely gorgeous. it depicts the hot, sizzling body of the 1d mark IV and i go weak at my knees when i just glance at it. when i opened it i could feel an orgasm coming on. and when i laid my hands on this wonder of all wonders of modern technology, i grunted softly and jizzed in my pants." :bsmilie:

 

[WooZY]

no, you are missing the point.

there is a difference between:

1) telling people what to do with their money, they should buy whatever they want

2) pointing out that what they buy is not useful to them

as far as i'm concerned, ian is doing the second. now, we all have minds, and humans are judgemental creatures. i'm not sure it's very wrong to do #2. :dunno:

the two arent entirely mutually exclusive. by calling them 5 yr olds and trashing them for being gearheads, the emphasis shifts from a reminder that you dont need a particular set of gear to telling them whats right for them/or simply for them to know their place. perception varies form person to person, that is the reality of imperfect communciation.but that said the strength and condescending nature of the language tells me, at least me, that he has a bone to pick with 'gearheads'.

I mean, looking at the number of posts i have made since i joined in 2006 (like 5 b4 this), I havent felt it necessary to contribute anything. but seriously the bashing of a 'class' of people on basis of their ostesible foolish and stupid love for tech specs is seriously starting to irritate. why cant people just be respectful on forums?

ok lets end this here. I will probably retreat to club snap silence for the next year or sth until i need some advice

 

[night86mare]

the two arent entirely mutually exclusive. by calling them 5 yr olds and trashing them for being gearheads, the emphasis shifts from a reminder that you dont need a particular set of gear to telling them whats right for them/or simply for them to know their place. perception varies form person to person, that is the reality of imperfect communciation.

well, i don't agree on going all out to bash them, but i do see where ian is coming from as well.

i don't know if they're mutually exclusive, but he does speak the truth, albeit in a harsh way.

anyways, i'm sure the gearheads have heard it all before, they have their own ways of handling such comments. :bsmilie:

so chill!

 

[Jed]

why cant people just be respectful on forums?

You mean like the people claiming Rob Galbraith is biased and has no idea what he's talking about?

 

[Jed]

anyways, i'm sure the gearheads have heard it all before, they have their own ways of handling such comments. :bsmilie:

bbb!

.

 

[WooZY]

bbb!

.

actualyl call me noob but what is bbb,,, of all the common acronyms this is one i cant figure out on my own. a search tells me its http://www.all-acronyms.com/BBB

but i rmb it only as blood brain barrier :S

 

[Atarandas]

the two arent entirely mutually exclusive. by calling them 5 yr olds and trashing them for being gearheads, the emphasis shifts from a reminder that you dont need a particular set of gear to telling them whats right for them/or simply for them to know their place. perception varies form person to person, that is the reality of imperfect communciation.but that said the strength and condescending nature of the language tells me, at least me, that he has a bone to pick with 'gearheads'.

I mean, looking at the number of posts i have made since i joined in 2006 (like 5 b4 this), I havent felt it necessary to contribute anything. but seriously the bashing of a 'class' of people on basis of their ostesible foolish and stupid love for tech specs is seriously starting to irritate. why cant people just be respectful on forums?

ok lets end this here. I will probably retreat to club snap silence for the next year or sth until i need some advice

Hey Guys =) peace . Its Chinese new year eve ! A time for re union and festival of red !

To me both opinions are valid . I guess everyone is entitled to what they have to say and what their opinion is .

Ian probably has a strong feeling on blind consumerism for equipment , though worded strongly , thats his form of expression. I agree with you in this age of materialism , theres no rationale to why people buy things. Ladies buys more than 10 pairs of shoes , some buys more than 10 branded hand bags , I also question the need and practicality of it . But end thats why the economy moves nowadays . Marketing is about convincing people to buy , and I believe compulsion purchase is common scenario every where in this world.

Yeah these fellas could be wasting money , but if they are happy about it , theres nothing what others can say or do to dissuade them from continuing it rite ?

 

[Atarandas]

actualyl call me noob but what is bbb,,, of all the common acronyms this is one i cant figure out on my own. a search tells me its http://www.all-acronyms.com/BBB

but i rmb it only as blood brain barrier :S

Buy Buy Buy =) refering to the buying virus that affects alot of pple haha

 

[Headshotzx]

I got the chance to shoot with the 1D4 and a 200mm f/2L, 70-200 2.8L IS, 85 1.8, 50 1.4 and 17-40L over two consecutive days and I really think that something's not quite right when it's paired with teles.

Shooting soccer in the morning sun, I tried a variety of AI Servo II speed settings and none could properly achieve consistent focus on objects moving towards or away from the camera at near constant speeds. Tried it with cars at night too and yeah it always overcompensates, even at the slowest of servo settings. Erratic movements were spot on. With a Sigma 1.4x TC involved, tracking got better but slower.

The camera also has a disability in tracking small objects that are probably 10% of the frame, whereas my 1D2N wouldn't have had a problem. It would always shift focus front and back. Weird.

However, I haven't had the chance to try the camera out for longer times so it could very well just be user error and or lack of practice. I did get overall technically very good shots, and the noise control is exceptional. Auto ISO is a charm. As for the AF performance, I'd trust my 1D2N's AF more - even if it's a lot slower to achieve focus - until I can test the markIV more often and get used to it.

Cheers,
Zexun

 

[Ian]

that is true, but like you said, both you and I dont have sales figures. for every professional other there, there are maybe, 10, 20 hobbyists and that number is increasingly rapidly as people become more affluent and prices come down. this is an educated guess, but looking at the line up, and how camera makers are scrambling to capture the masses, you get at least an inkling of the idea that at least that is a crucial area of the market

Third

"The reasons for this are simple and closely follow the accepted "ages of reason""

the ages of reason... listen. dont go telling people what to do or what reason is. and besides this isnt about reason. it is about people appreciating tech specs in a equipment forum. it is about different interests. respect that instead of sinking down to name calling.

so who is the imperialistic one? waltzing in here and calling everyone 5 yr olds?

I've not disputed that cosumer and prosumer cameras are where the vast majority of sales are, however after 33 years of professional shooting and I shudder to think how many hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment later and having access to some reliable inside information on profit margins of various body types I can say that far more of the R&D budget goes in to the top end bodies and then flows downwards. Furthermore the top end bodies have a much higher percentage of the wholesale price devoted to R&D.

I didn't call anyone a 5yr old, I said stop behaving like a bunch of 5 year olds as that's how most gear measurebators do behave.

Note I called no one by name, instead it's about a class mentality as I have previously stated it applies to quite a number of professionals as well. Brand allegiance has nothing to do with it either. I'm not and never will be a Canon user as I have way too much invested in another brand to make change cost effective or even viable.

As for being imperialistic, I'm anything but, those who know me in person will attest to that. I do however have a very no nonsense way of writing and if that gets up your nose, tough.

:thumbsup: that's true.
but you should really see the way some people "push" their fps when shooting inanimate objects, it's amazing. :bsmilie:

That's a good marketing line if ever I saw one

Forget badly DI'ed model photographs though, open box review images are clearly the way forward!

I'm just waiting for someone to come up with a closed box review.

I know of some one who nearly does closed box reviews, our old friend Mr Yellow pages himself, the lovely Ken Rockwell, who has been known to write a review of a body (comprehensive) based on 30 seconds looking at it at camera fair. Ohh goody!!

I mean, looking at the number of posts i have made since i joined in 2006 (like 5 b4 this), I havent felt it necessary to contribute anything. but seriously the bashing of a 'class' of people on basis of their ostesible foolish and stupid love for tech specs is seriously starting to irritate. why cant people just be respectful on forums?

ok lets end this here. I will probably retreat to club snap silence for the next year or sth until i need some advice

It's simply called a voice of reason in the wilderness. The more they measurebate the less reasonable they tend to become, hence fight fire with fire. I rest my case.