exactly.. i am also surprised that nikon d600,d800 score better in ISO rating than 5dmk3 when 5dmk3 native iso range is so much longer than the 2 nikon cameras..
OFFICIAL: CANON EOS 6D - User Thread - Part 2
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exactly.. i am also surprised that nikon d600,d800 score better in ISO rating than 5dmk3 when 5dmk3 native iso range is so much longer than the 2 nikon cameras..
Anthony Lee
Senior Member
I hope you are wrong in your assumption. As a former Canon user, I am hoping to come back and the 6D seems very appropriate for me and I was hoping that the new 6D sensor will have better DR than my NEX 5N, an outdated APS-C sensor. Guess my wait is over, but I will decide after I have some hands-on myself.
Note the highest ranking APS-C camera, the Pentax K5, 'only' has a score of 82. So, no matter how well the 7D2 sensor performs, it can never be better than 1DX or 6D.
Let's see if Canon finally gets their 0.18 um wafer processes running in 2013... the technology may surface in 1DXs and 7D2/700D etc. Hopefully, Canon is now awake and smelling the roses. They should know by now their awful reputation in sensor performance is killing their sales, particularly for the all-important lower end stuff.
avsquare
Senior Member
It's just based on my observations as a Canon user - just have a look at how features moved down the line from 1DX to 5D3 to 6D, and similarly to other current and past line of products.
Canon's new XD series DSRLs released this year definitely sees some sensor improvement that Canon users have been asking for, and of course if we are comparing within Canon's products itself like 1DX with 1Ds3 and 5D3 with 5D2, I think most Canon users are satisfied with the improvements. The new 61AF point system in the 1DX and 5D3 and the new interface for AI-Servo is definitely a thumbs up. Canon has also raised the game on clean high ISO that has impressed many, although Canon's NR algorithms is still harsh and the signature mushiness remains as a trait.
But if we're hoping that the 1DX/5D3/6D will be up there against it's major competitor who's scoring over 90 points based on DXO scores.. At this moment I don't have hopes for it. Not with Canon's current marketing strategy..
Of course if you're looking at an upgrade from NEX 5N's sensor, 6D is definitely a good upgrade.
avsquare
Senior Member
Not sure if it's "it can never be better" or "they don't want to make it better" - you know, it's Canon, at least at the moment. That was what I meant :bsmilie:
I'm too hoping that Canon will do something about it. Guess I shall look forward to the 5D4 or 1D? then.
ageha
Senior Member
At ISO 400 the 6D takes over.
raydio
Senior Member
There has been much duress over the DXO marks on both sides of the camp that I feel is largely unfounded. Sensor technology has progressed to such an extent and it has matured to a point where the human eye cannot derive appreciable anomalies between the two largest manufacturers. Put two photos side by side... one from the Canon 5D3 and the other from the Nikon D800 or still yet, one from the Canon 6D and the other from the Nikon D600... and people would be hard pressed to tell which camera produced which photo.
Ladies and gentlemen, the race is no longer an issue of who has the better sensor. It is like saying Competitor A can produce a sensor capable of displaying 1.5 billion colours and Competitor B can produce a sensor capable of displaying 1.0 billion colours. Yet the human eye can only distinguish 10 million colours! Therefore it makes absolutely no difference how many billions of colours each of the competitors make.
The technical race is now in AF sensitivity and accuracy and also in low light light and noise technology. These are still distinguishable among variant cameras. This is where the true race lies.
Ladies and gentlemen, the race is no longer an issue of who has the better sensor. It is like saying Competitor A can produce a sensor capable of displaying 1.5 billion colours and Competitor B can produce a sensor capable of displaying 1.0 billion colours. Yet the human eye can only distinguish 10 million colours! Therefore it makes absolutely no difference how many billions of colours each of the competitors make.
The technical race is now in AF sensitivity and accuracy and also in low light light and noise technology. These are still distinguishable among variant cameras. This is where the true race lies.
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I admire your positive attitude! :bsmilie:
Landscape photographers like myself do hope for dramatic improvements in low ISO dynamic range so that we can recover shadow details (in high contrast scenes) without the noisy monster rearing its ugly head.
avsquare
Senior Member
I admire your positive attitude! :bsmilie:
Landscape photographers like myself do hope for dramatic improvements in low ISO dynamic range so that we can recover shadow details (in high contrast scenes) without the noisy monster rearing its ugly head.
I agree with bro raydio that working on improvements on the AF and noise management would make more impact. Give me a sensor with DR of 5D2 standard but an AF sensitivity, accuracy and noise management better than the 1DX and I would be happy to buy it. How ultimately, noise management still comes down to sensor's design and we still can't run away from the sensor. Maybe another thing to work on is the NR algorithms - Canon needs to make it less mushy.
But again, a sensor with better DR is always welcomed. Landscape photographers like doodah has mentioned, will greatly appreciate the difference. I think it's always a dream to have a imaging sensor as sensitive as the human's eyes. I think it's not only benefiting landscape photographers. Portraiture, street/journalism and many areas of photography could benefit from a higher DR range. Even casual snapshots while on holiday could use a sensor with better DR when you have to take photos of your family and friends against back light without the use of fill light from the pop up flash.. which tends to make the photo a little ugly.
I think it ultimately depends on your application. Portraiture shooters like me can probably survive with a 10EV DR sensor but better low light sensitivity and AF accuracy would be very helpful when shooting with ambient light. While on the other end, landscape shooters would welcome a 16EV DR sensor and do some manual focusing themselves.
well i feel at least there is some guidance when we ahve the dxo ratings...
before one buy , one can take that into consideration and of course one should also look at the pictures and compare... not everyone buy a camera based on the same number of factors.. so it is good to have alot of feedback from various sources..
before one buy , one can take that into consideration and of course one should also look at the pictures and compare... not everyone buy a camera based on the same number of factors.. so it is good to have alot of feedback from various sources..
Guys, the DXOMark measurement, I take no doubt, is accurate (up to the equipment precision) for each sensor. But the final scores definitely skewed.
Take an example of ISO performance, the 6D get a score of 2340 while D600 get 2980. But by looking at the SNR18% graph at "Screen", which is how we view our photos in 100% on our monitor, the two sensors produce almost same SNR performance with D600 has a slight leading at low ISO.
But how come the final score for 6D and D600 got almost 1/3 stop difference? There are two things here:
1. DXO use the "Print" to give the final score, which they think this is fair for different sensors which have different pixel count. This is partially correct since when you view a photo from a print out, you won't care about the pixel count of the original sensor, you just care about the noise in the final output. But, there is a "But" here, that is: which re-size algorithm DXO used to get the "Print" measurement? This can be found at their article: DxOMark - Modeling small pixels
from this article, it clearly states that they use the "average out", quote: "However, the four high-resolution neighboring pixels can be averaged out to form a low-resolution pixel. The statistical formula below shows the noise yield for the downsampled image: ". Yes, in this average out, the noise is greatly reduced, but same applies to the DETAILS. I don't think any downsampling algorithm we used in real life will gain as much noise reduction as theirs.
2. DXO needs the color depth and dynamic range to be a certain level when measuring ISO performance. To be exact, they want the color depth to be over 18 bits when SNR is 30 bits and above. So 6D only got 17.9 bits at ISO 2400 and unfortunately not passing this criteria. so the highest ISO score by this standard is 2340. I don't know why they magically choose 18 bits but not any other value.
So if only consider the SNR value of the two sensor at screen size, and give 30 bits and above as a good ISO performance, both camera will have a score of around 1200.
Lastly, my suggestion is: take a look at the actual measurement in Screen output of each individual segment and ignore the final scoring of the sensor.
Take an example of ISO performance, the 6D get a score of 2340 while D600 get 2980. But by looking at the SNR18% graph at "Screen", which is how we view our photos in 100% on our monitor, the two sensors produce almost same SNR performance with D600 has a slight leading at low ISO.
But how come the final score for 6D and D600 got almost 1/3 stop difference? There are two things here:
1. DXO use the "Print" to give the final score, which they think this is fair for different sensors which have different pixel count. This is partially correct since when you view a photo from a print out, you won't care about the pixel count of the original sensor, you just care about the noise in the final output. But, there is a "But" here, that is: which re-size algorithm DXO used to get the "Print" measurement? This can be found at their article: DxOMark - Modeling small pixels
from this article, it clearly states that they use the "average out", quote: "However, the four high-resolution neighboring pixels can be averaged out to form a low-resolution pixel. The statistical formula below shows the noise yield for the downsampled image: ". Yes, in this average out, the noise is greatly reduced, but same applies to the DETAILS. I don't think any downsampling algorithm we used in real life will gain as much noise reduction as theirs.
2. DXO needs the color depth and dynamic range to be a certain level when measuring ISO performance. To be exact, they want the color depth to be over 18 bits when SNR is 30 bits and above. So 6D only got 17.9 bits at ISO 2400 and unfortunately not passing this criteria. so the highest ISO score by this standard is 2340. I don't know why they magically choose 18 bits but not any other value.
So if only consider the SNR value of the two sensor at screen size, and give 30 bits and above as a good ISO performance, both camera will have a score of around 1200.
Lastly, my suggestion is: take a look at the actual measurement in Screen output of each individual segment and ignore the final scoring of the sensor.
ageha
Senior Member
Who looks at the scores? The monitor graphs are more interesting.
well, I am trying to answer someone asking why for ISO ratings 6D is behind D800/D600, but actually, is not.
BeeMan1024
New Member
Prices Dropped already in Japan : S$2478.00 (Body only) after tourist 10% discount (YEN169560.00)
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ã¨ããã·.com - ãã¤ãã³ EOS 6D [ããã£]ãç¡æé éã
Agree. Real world shots are more telling than lab tests shots.
raydio
Senior Member
BTW, regarding the higher dynamic range of Sony sensors. Actually is because of the clean shadows produced by Sony. This is a the place Canon should catch up.
Because the dynamic range is a ratio of the highest gray luminance to the lowest gray luminance a sensor can capture, and the lowest gray luminance that makes sense to DXO is a level that has SNR > 1. As Canon's shadow is not that clean even in low ISO compare to Sony ones, so Canon get a considerably lower score in this segment for low ISOs. I do hope Canon increase this part though, not because it is practical in actual shooting, but it gives a good PR move.
Because the dynamic range is a ratio of the highest gray luminance to the lowest gray luminance a sensor can capture, and the lowest gray luminance that makes sense to DXO is a level that has SNR > 1. As Canon's shadow is not that clean even in low ISO compare to Sony ones, so Canon get a considerably lower score in this segment for low ISOs. I do hope Canon increase this part though, not because it is practical in actual shooting, but it gives a good PR move.
Anthony Lee
Senior Member
I admire your positive attitude! :bsmilie:
Landscape photographers like myself do hope for dramatic improvements in low ISO dynamic range so that we can recover shadow details (in high contrast scenes) without the noisy monster rearing its ugly head.
I am with you. A better sensor will always enhance the overall performance of the camera, period.
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