Nikon announce DX digital lenses

[ckiang]

Originally posted by Bean
Regarding Nikon coming up with different kind of accessories catered for different equipment (eg. G lens, DX flashes, now DX lens etc...), I, as a Nikon user, am quite disappointed. When I first started photography 8 years back (now still a novice though ), I'm proud to be a Nikon user as most Nikkor lenses and flashes are back-ward compatible. Back-ward compatibility is actually an advantage against its competitors then. No need to worry about compatibility issues. When the first G lens was introduced, it seems to signal the beginning of the end of this superior advantage.

Looking at the direction Nikon is heading, it seems (to me) that G lenses will be the lenses of the future. Now with the introduction of DX flashes and DX lenses, Nikon will no longer be able to boost the past fact that all Nikkor lenses can be used on all Nikon bodies.

Sigh...

Backwards compatibility has to come to an end at some point. Maybe one day, Canon will outgrow the EOS mount and come up with something new.

Regards
CK

 

[CYRN]

Originally posted by ckiang


Backwards compatibility has to come to an end at some point. Maybe one day, Canon will outgrow the EOS mount and come up with something new.

Regards
CK

Correct, We should give some credit to Nikon strategy in trying to penatrate the "low cost" consumer market. It should not compared to most opinions of those who seeks to "perfect" their photography skills.

There are still relative larger markets for HF sensors, than FF sensors due to price difference be it now or in future (Pentium 4 PC may cost below 1K now but you can get P3 for dirt cheap price...and for most case it still perform the desired functions).

One more thing to take note is that for the near future, Chip making technology is still not able to cope with large sized chip fabrications to give the appropriate rate of return..something like "twice the size, 100 times the defective probability"

Of course there will come a time when things needs to be totally replaced (286 AT/XT??) By then, don't you think holography would be the medium of choice? Or in the nearer future, most consumers uses laptop/tablet PC or similar device as their digital album... is there really a need for higher resolution than what is common today?

In fact if DSLR can match the price and performance of today's consumer Film SLRs I don't see why flim having a large market share (except less developed countries).

By the way, the same applies for MF digital back, it's calculated to be able to reach 100Mpix "full MF frame" capacity.

 

[DieHarder]

curious, would the dedicated hood cover from 12mm or 18mm?
this is an exciting lens assuming its gonna be made affordable.
so how much r u willing to pay for this DX lens? S$1000?

 

[sriram]

Originally posted by ckiang
Backwards compatibility has to come to an end at some point. Maybe one day, Canon will outgrow the EOS mount and come up with something new.

Hehehe.... [with fat asbestos jacket, couldn't resist]
Remember the pre-AI lenses... you know, the ones which can very well damage new Nikon bodies? And the AI-S lenses? And the meter coupling prong for older bodies? And the manual focus lenses which will not meter on the new bodies like the F80 etc? And the "VR" stuff which will not work on even relatively new bodies like the F90x? And AF-S which will not work with some low end / older bodies? And G lenses which are crippled on manual focus bodies? And the huge range of flashes which won't work on DSLRs? And the new DX Nikkors which can't be used on any film camera and any full frame DSLR like the Kodak 14N? Now get that 300 page incompatibility manual.

Backwards compatibility is a myth. This is simply planned obsolesence, and a great way of generating revenue. Introduce new stuff, incompatible stuff, but good stuff, and people will buy it. OTOH you gotta appreciate Pentax... AFAIK all K mount lenses can be used on all Pentax bodies (with 1 or 2 exceptions), manual/AF whatever.

As for Canon's ditching the FD mount users, that made them a lot of enemies, but they seem to be doing pretty well now. At least I can use the newest (2002) 70-200/2.8 image stabilizer lens on an ancient (1987) EOS-650 with full functionality. I can still mount manual focus FD lenses on EOS bodies, and use stop down metering, E-TTL flash, etc (though I know of only one person who does that). Don't see them ditching the EOS mount any time. If they did, the backlash would be so great this time, it would sink their camera division, what with the big ticket items like the EOS-1Ds and thousands of expensive L lenses people have already bought.

 

[ckiang]

Originally posted by sriram

As for Canon's ditching the FD mount users, that made them a lot of enemies, but they seem to be doing pretty well now. At least I can use the newest (2002) 70-200/2.8 image stabilizer lens on an ancient (1987) EOS-650 with full functionality. I can still mount manual focus FD lenses on EOS bodies, and use stop down metering, E-TTL flash, etc (though I know of only one person who does that). Don't see them ditching the EOS mount any time. If they did, the backlash would be so great this time, it would sink their camera division, what with the big ticket items like the EOS-1Ds and thousands of expensive L lenses people have already bought.

Not now, maybe later? How long can one maintain a particular mount? What if you need more contacts on the lens? Precisely what happened when Nikon introduced the AF-S and VR lenses - the older bodies doesn't have the necessary contacts.

Like you said, backwards compatibility is a myth. It has to end in some point of time.

Yes, Canon may not junk the EF mount for now or in near future, but who knows? They might just get into Nikon's "problem" as well, where new lenses don't work on old bodies, that sort of thing.

It's already quite a feat that you can still use old AI-S lenses on top bodies like F100, F5, D1 series, etc. On F80, it works, but just won't meter. And the other way, you can probably mount a AF-S 80-200mm f/2.8D ED-IF onto a Nikon FM. Ok, the AFS70-200G won't, but it isn't really meant for these old cameras anyway. If you have a Fm2, you won't buy it anyway.

You're right about the F90x though. But remember all these are happening coz what's happening is a sort of architectural change. Can't run WinXP on a 286 can you? Obviously, back in the F90x days, we don't have AF-S, VR, and G lenses, so the bodies obviously can't support them fully.

When Canon ditched FD to go EF, they basically redesigned the whole thing from ground up, so all these can be taken care of, up to a point.

Regards
CK

 

[Bean]

Originally posted by ckiang

You're right about the F90x though. But remember all these are happening coz what's happening is a sort of architectural change. Can't run WinXP on a 286 can you? Obviously, back in the F90x days, we don't have AF-S, VR, and G lenses, so the bodies obviously can't support them fully.

When the first EOS camera was introduced, there were also no USM and IS lenses too...

 

[Jed]

Originally posted by sriram
As for Canon's ditching the FD mount users, that made them a lot of enemies... Don't see them ditching the EOS mount any time. If they did, the backlash would be so great this time, it would sink their camera division, what with the big ticket items like the EOS-1Ds and thousands of expensive L lenses people have already bought.

That actually is the whole point. In all seriousness, and not for the sake of arguing or anything, but you say that now because you live in the current generation. If they do drop the EOS line it will affect *you*. Yet, for every one of you today, there was one person who lost an expensive FD camera or lens back when they discontinued the FD line.

Don't brush aside the mount change - it was bad, no two ways about it. What Nikon has done certainly has it's flaws too, but don't fall into the "ancient history it won't happen again" trap.

 

[kingpin]

Originally posted by sriram

.....
Remember the pre-AI lenses... you know, the ones which can very well damage new Nikon bodies? And the AI-S lenses? And the meter coupling prong for older bodies? And the manual focus lenses which will not meter on the new bodies like the F80 etc? And the "VR" stuff which will not work on even relatively new bodies like the F90x? And AF-S which will not work with some low end / older bodies? And G lenses which are crippled on manual focus bodies? And the huge range of flashes which won't work on DSLRs? And the new DX Nikkors which can't be used on any film camera and any full frame DSLR like the Kodak 14N? .......

As for Canon's ditching the FD mount users, that made them a lot of enemies, but they seem to be doing pretty well now. At least I can use the newest (2002) 70-200/2.8 image stabilizer lens on an ancient (1987) EOS-650 with full functionality. I can still mount manual focus FD lenses on EOS bodies, and use stop down metering, E-TTL flash, etc (though I know of only one person who does that). Don't see them ditching the EOS mount any time. If they did, the backlash would be so great this time, it would sink their camera division, what with the big ticket items like the EOS-1Ds and thousands of expensive L lenses people have already bought.

I'm one of those that changed from Canon to Nikon due primarily to the Canon's ditching of the FD mount. Was upset becos my investment in the lens was wasted as the new bodies have different mount. I do appreciate Nikon's philosophy of keeping the same mount. At least I can use the older Nikkor lens on the new bodies. I don't expect to use the new generation lens on the old bodies with the same functionality. Point is I have a choice and the older Nikon bodies and lens are still compatible to the point of their designed functionality. I agree with your observation - I don't think Canon would want to do another mount change, it will be a strategic mistake. If they do, the impact will be much more than the first change and every generation of Canon owners will be wondering when their mount will be obselete. They will lose more of the market to Nikon. Personally I think the tech advances will allow Nikon to continue its F mount with miniaturisation and better chip designs. Nikon have done well incorporating IS and SWM on the F mount. Despite what I'd said about Canon, I think their change of mount had allowed them to push the development of their lens and bodies. These have enlarged their market share and challenged Nikon in the 35 mm range of cameras. Nikon have responded, hopefully they will push their R&D more. Competition is good. So I wish Canon not to make a strategic mistake. Their change from the FD mount was a calculated risk which seem to have paid off.

 

[ckiang]

Originally posted by Bean
When the first EOS camera was introduced, there were also no USM and IS lenses too...

They had it easier, all Canon EF lenses has the AF motor inside the lens, as opposed to inside the camera body. That make it easier to simply replace the regular motor with an USM one.

Regards
CK

 

[Pricess Leia]

If I was in Nikon, hey!!! Lots of people need wider angle right.....lets see...........if xx number buys so many of my new lens I make so much money.......for a whole lot less investment and r/d.

Make a FF DSLR and sell it at 10K .......i may make less as how many people can really afford it!!! And also the high investment and R/D dollars.......

Guess which direction the company is going to take............dur!!!

Remember, Nikon is not Canon who has deep pockets!! Some companies don't have that much money to throw away at taking risk......so you take the course of action that would make the most bucks.........and take the least risk!!!

Its all simple dollars and sense!!!

Christine

 

[surfer123]

Is this new LEN compatible with Fujifilm S2 Pro ???

 

[ckiang]

Originally posted by surfer123
Is this new LEN compatible with Fujifilm S2 Pro ???

Firstly, it's LENS (singular), LENSES (plural) ;p

Yes, the lens will work on a S2 Pro. Probably not work on S1 Pro though. D100, D1 series will work as well.

Regards
CK

 

[Jed]

Originally posted by Pricess Leia
Remember, Nikon is not Canon who has deep pockets!! Some companies don't have that much money to throw away at taking risk......

Actually, it should be the other way around. Yes Canon has deep pockets and Nikon don't. But it's Nikon that's taking the risk here, developing a whole new line based on a whole new image circle. Full frame sensors are hardly risky, they are fairly common place now. And the Canon bodies are just more expensive as they are, the 1D was also more pricey than the Nikon bodies when it came out.

 

[Pricess Leia]

HI,

The question is which risk is bigger in Nikons eyes.....call it risk appetite!!!

FF CCDs are expensive.......the bigger they are, the more they costs! Its not a technical risk...its a matter costs of production of one sensor! Its the seame problem they have producing chips at a reasonable costs. And the way to reduce costs of chips is:

1. Make it in a low costs labor factory,
2. Make it with cheaper materials
3. Make it smaller per wafer. per processed batch.
4. Sell lots of it ........so that your production costs go down! When production costs go down, the stuff gets cheaper, more people will buy it. Your volumes go up, your production costs go down further!!

SO

Nikons options are:

Nikon developing a FF Dslr which it needed to sell at skyrocket prices to break even ..... while hoping the market will buy it. Few people buy it, production costs are high, piece part costs are high. You cant make back your investment!

OR

Sell DX lenses to existing 1.5X frame DSLR users at a more affordable price which people would be more likely to buy! More People buy, production costs go down, profits are up.....

 

[Jed]

People will buy it, like people bought the 1D and 1Ds. You have to remember that these cameras are not targeted at the amateur, and for professionals, it's a (necessary) business expense.

Introducing a full frame sensor is the path of least resistance really, see how many people are clamouring for a full frame sensor. I seem to be the only one who thinks the 1.5x sensor is the best thing that's ever happened to digital photography.

How about I put it another way:

The question is which risk is bigger in Canon's eyes.....call it risk appetite!!!

Canons options:

Canon developed a FF Dslr which required no extraordinary R&D costs..... while hoping the market will buy it

OR

Develop an entirely new range of DX lenses to existing 1.5X frame DSLR users... and spend a huge outlay on R&D for each new lens... while hoping the market would buy it because everyone doesn't seem keen on 1.5x sensors.

It's all a matter of perspective. In terms of which move was the more radical in terms of concept, Nikon's clearly is. And in terms of money, I'm not sure either. Besides, Nikon have apparently declared their intention (not just implied through DX lenses) to stick with the 1.5x sensor. Good news to all Nikon users.

 

[Jed]

Oops I should have quoted you, my reply outdated the moment I posted it!

Anyway, bottom line, I'm just happy we've got the 1.5x chip. I don't care who took the bigger risk because Nikon's got it right, which is what matters!

 

[Pricess Leia]

Here is what I think is happening...

There are a lot of small sensor makers out there.....critical mass and therefore lower costs of sensors. Look at the number of compact digicams out there.

I don't think Nikon makes their own sensors, so they buy it from the cheapest source they can get their hands on....

SO now the question is which senosr has more critical mass

FF senors or Small Sensors......

The high volume seller will costs the least.......... The bet is on!!!