Must Know for 300D Owners

[Kit]

Gosh if that doesn't show that photographic technique is more important than post-processing technique, then I don't know what does. We've agreed that photo-technique can generate good pictures in the absence of post-pro, while the opposite is not true. It does demonstrate that post-processing is not as important as photographic skills. If you can admit 1) and 2) but cannot admit the conclusion, then I'm sorry, can't help you there.

Ok try this:
1) You cannot survive without taking water (in some form or another).
2) you can survive without taking chocolate.
Conclusion: water is more necessary for life than chocolate.
Or this:
1) A is able to achieve Z in the absence of B
2) B is not able to achieve Z in the absence of A
Conclusion: A is more important in achieving Z than B is.
I really should not be needing to spell it out to this level... In fact, I think I've had enough of this argument.

Read my message again and again. This time don't be so selectively as to only read those you wish to. Read the whole thing. To summerise what I've said about point 1, good photographic skills naturally attribute to good images BUT without post editing skills, you're still missing something. Like I said, your statement is only half correct which I happen to agree and in no way doesn it support your arguement that post editing skills should take the back seat. They both work together.

To your analogy, which is taken out of context again..... as usual. Chocolate is a luxury item, post editing is a necessity in digital photography. Get it? Move on.

You have had enough of this arguement? You haven't even started defending your case yet.

 

[Kit]

I thought the conclusion was spelt out pretty clearly in my last post. Here it is again:
1) You can generate great images with proper camera handling, and no proprocessing.
2) You cannot generate great images with poor camera handling technique, and excellent post-processing technique.

As a bonus, I'll analyse your statements for you.

First statement. Like I said, its only half correct but I agree on only to a certain extend. You can achieve an excellent image only to a certain extend without post editing. Need to do post editing to bring it to the next level.

Second statement. Taken out of context. The issue here is how useful post editing is. Any fool can say that but that's not the point. Everybody knows good photographic skills are a must have but does that means post editing skills have to take a back seat? Nope.

So in both you statements, you did not convincingly argued why post editing should secondary to good photographic skills when they're proven to work together. You merely said good photographic skills are a must have.

 

[zaren]

just my 2 cents....

from the above discussion, it would appear that kit is looking primarily at the realm of professional digital photography, where post processing is an integral part of the workflow to bring out the full potential of the photo. hence the challenge to identify a pro who doesn't post edit.

toasty seems to be looking more broadly at the realm of digital photography in general, which also includes many casual/novice digital photographers who are happy enough to print their photos straight out of the camera without any post processing.

i would imagine that it's personal preference of the user to decide whether they need post processing or not, just as they decide whether to develop their own film, or send it to the minilab. professionals/serious amateurs would want to post edit every digital photo, while casual users/novices won't.

:think:

 

[Kit]

just my 2 cents....

from the above discussion, it would appear that kit is looking primarily at the realm of professional digital photography, where post processing is an integral part of the workflow to bring out the full potential of the photo. hence the challenge to identify a pro who doesn't post edit.

toasty seems to be looking more broadly at the realm of digital photography in general, which also includes many casual/novice digital photographers who are happy enough to print their photos straight out of the camera without any post processing.

i would imagine that it's personal preference of the user to decide whether they need post processing or not, just as they decide whether to develop their own film, or send it to the minilab. professionals/serious amateurs would want to post edit every digital photo, while casual users/novices won't.

:think:

Actually the lack of understanding in the importance of post editing also has its impact on the novice level. Take a look at threads from dpreview.com and here. You see people complaining about soft images straight out of digicams, especially DSLRs. When all is clear, its evident that some of these people had used P&S digicams before and expected the same performance with their new purchases. They soon realise that they're in a different situation than before.

I won't force anyone into performing post editing as I do know different people have different expectations and tolerance to what is considered a well executed imaging process, but to say post editing comes secondary is just plain misguided.

 

[Kit]

and you'd be surprised by some novice's relentless quest for "ultimate sharpness". Quite amusing at times.

 

[zaren]

Actually the lack of understanding in the importance of post editing also has its impact on the novice level. Take a look at threads from dpreview.com and here. You see people complaining about soft images straight out of digicams, especially DSLRs. When all is clear, its evident that some of these people had used P&S digicams before and expected the same performance with their new purchases. They soon realise that they're in a different situation than before.

I won't force anyone into performing post editing as I do know different people have different expectations and tolerance to what is considered a well executed imaging process, but to say post editing comes secondary is just plain misguided.

well, i guess it's how the word 'secondary' is perceived. in another thread, i believe you have replied zipper's post saying that photographic skills alone will get him up to 6 or 7 out of 10, and post editing skills the additional 3 out of 10 to achieve 10/10 i.e. the finished image with full potential realised. to some folks, logic would suggest that "6 or 7 out of 10" is 'more important' than "3 out of 10". again it boils down to whether the user is a pro requiring 10/10 or a casual user happy with (or not knowing better than) 7/10 in terms of image finishing.

 

[zaren]

and you'd be surprised by some novice's relentless quest for "ultimate sharpness". Quite amusing at times.

well, i tend to go with the notion that 'most photographers (especially novices) will not realise the full potential of most lenses'

;p

 

[Kit]

well, i guess it's how the word 'secondary' is perceived. in another thread, i believe you have replied zipper's post saying that photographic skills alone will get him up to 6 or 7 out of 10, and post editing skills the additional 3 out of 10 to achieve 10/10 i.e. the finished image with full potential realised. to some folks, logic would suggest that "6 or 7 out of 10" is 'more important' than "3 out of 10". again it boils down to whether the user is a pro requiring 10/10 or a casual user happy with (or not knowing better than) 7/10 in terms of image finishing.

That was just an off hand example to illustrate my point lah. Ok then let's switch "secondary" with less important. My view still stands. Just because you don't use something, it doesn't make it less important in an actual sense. So if what you say is true(which is true for many out there), then there isn't much for them to complain does it? You skipped a step, then you can't complain about less than desirable images and I think the other thread woun't exist in the first place.

I have no problem with how Zipper put it. I do have a problem when someone authoritatively suggests post editing is a secondary skill with nothing to back up, especially when what many others have done suggest otherwise.

 

[Kit]

well, i tend to go with the notion that 'most photographers (especially novices) will not realise the full potential of most lenses'

;p

Well, try telling that to them...

 

[zipper]

Hi Zipper,

Thanks for info. :thumbsup: I tried that and it works man! I compared two lenses, the EFS and the Prime 50mm/f1.8. Couldn't see any big differences in the Prime 50mm/f1.8. But the EFS is so obvious, after reset the picture became much sharper.

Some people in dpreview forum said probably due when swapping the lenses, the camera/lens can't readjust the focus distance back well.

Before that I really thought that my hand shaked (or EFS is so crap) after seeing the soft/out of focus pictures.

My friend will do some tests on other lenses on his 300D. See the problems really only happen on EFS lens.

Thanks again! Keep us posted for any good tips.

By the way, I'm using the old firmware. 1.01?

Thanks for the feedback. At least it tells me I am not seeing double!!!

I am glad my post did help you, that's precisely what I wanted to do in the 1st place.

Do keep us posted for your friends' tests.

Thanks

 

[Kobe]

Thanks for the feedback. At least it tells me I am not seeing double!!!

I am glad my post did help you, that's precisely what I wanted to do in the 1st place.

Do keep us posted for your friends' tests.

Thanks

No problem Zipper!

Just got my friend's result today... something weird.
Okay, for EFS lens, "After Reset" is sharper than "Before Reset", very obvious.
For 50mm prime, couldn't tell any differences, if there is, very minor.
For Canon 80-200 zoom, same also, couldn't see any big differences.
For Tamron 28-75 XR Di, it's weird. "Before Reset" is sharper than "After Reset".

My friend feels pretty pissed off now. Wondering it's due to the compability problem between Tamron lens and Canon 300D. Anyway, he is going to do more tests today.

Do you have the same problem on Tamron 28-75 XR Di?

Do you reset your camera settings everytime you swap lenses?

 

[zipper]

No problem Zipper!

Just got my friend's result today... something weird.
Okay, for EFS lens, "After Reset" is sharper than "Before Reset", very obvious.
For 50mm prime, couldn't tell any differences, if there is, very minor.
For Canon 80-200 zoom, same also, couldn't see any big differences.
For Tamron 28-75 XR Di, it's weird. "Before Reset" is sharper than "After Reset".

My friend feels pretty pissed off now. Wondering it's due to the compability problem between Tamron lens and Canon 300D. Anyway, he is going to do more tests today.

Do you have the same problem on Tamron 28-75 XR Di?

Do you reset your camera settings everytime you swap lenses?

I used the kit lens and found the "soft" issue, by then I did not know about the "reset" trick. I resorted to buying the Tamron 28-75 and hoping it did help. It did not.

Then I came upon the trick and tried immediately with Tamron and YES I had a sharper ones "After Reset".

I have not tried with my kit lens yet.

I got my Canon 50mm f1.8 yesterday and took a few shots without the reset after swapping and it looked okay to me. Anyway, as it was too late I did not try extensively but only a few shots, I am going to test it during the weekends and hopefully I have something to feedback.

Thanks.

 

[loupgarou]

300D metering
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=7460939

 

[lhfoo]

I used the kit lens and found the "soft" issue, by then I did not know about the "reset" trick. I resorted to buying the Tamron 28-75 and hoping it did help. It did not.

Then I came upon the trick and tried immediately with Tamron and YES I had a sharper ones "After Reset".

I have not tried with my kit lens yet.

I got my Canon 50mm f1.8 yesterday and took a few shots without the reset after swapping and it looked okay to me. Anyway, as it was too late I did not try extensively but only a few shots, I am going to test it during the weekends and hopefully I have something to feedback.

Thanks.

Hahaha ... I am the friend Kobe talking about ....

Yeap, like what Kobe said, in my test, my Tamron 28-75mm is less sharper after reset. Before reset at 50mm f5.6, the sharpness is equal to my 50mm/f1.8 prime at the same setting. But after the reset, the sharpness is as poor as the kit lens ... .

So, feeling unsatisfied with this, I did a 2nd round test.
I put on the Tamron 28-75mm and take a series of shots at 50mm using f2.8, f5.6, f11.0, f22.0 and f32.0 fixing the WB to Flourescent. Then I resetted the 300D (without powering off) and take another series of shots with exactly the same setting.
And then I changed to 50mm prime lens and take another series of shots using the same setting.

Guess what? The before and after sharpness varies for Tamron 28-75mm ... at some aperture, before is sharper but at another aperture, after is sharper ... it is not consistent!!!!

And comparing to the 50mm prime, I can never get the Tamron to shoot as sharp as 50mm prime anymore for all aperture.

I am pretty sure before the 1st round reset, the picture from Tamron 28-75mm at f5.6 is as sharp as 50mm ... and you cannot tell the difference!

Hmmm, kinda disappointed that I am getting a mixed results ... now I am thinking that the sharpening algorithm in DIGIC is the problem causer and not the focusing problem.

Kobe, did u try another simple test I suggested? Prefocus in AF mode, then switch to MF mode, take a few shots, then reset the camera, then another few shots making sure that the lens is not touched. See if you can get the same picture quality before and after.

 

[Kobe]

Kobe, did u try another simple test I suggested? Prefocus in AF mode, then switch to MF mode, take a few shots, then reset the camera, then another few shots making sure that the lens is not touched. See if you can get the same picture quality before and after.

Not yet ler. ;p

Testing the hacked firmware now...

 

[lhfoo]

Not yet ler. ;p

Testing the hacked firmware now...

Hahaha ... I tried the hacked firmware too ... .
Only 4 functions available as mentioned by the Russian hacker.
Hopefully, there is more to come ...

To those interested, check out the forum at dpreview.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=7500111
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=7502807

Use the hacked firmware at your own risk .... :nono: