Minyi

[Long Thai Bean]

Discouraging becos a lot of personal emotion outside of the photos involved. a bit pity.

You are right on the personal emotion part ... But seriously, I still do not understand that long and "serious" response from TL to a simple statement by mattlock. Maybe it was a misunderstanding on something else that happened in another thread ... If so then why bring it into this one ... There was nothing person ... just simple comments on the picture until after that statement by TL that sent sparks flying ...

Y shouldnt I post the thread first instead of TL? .... in addition, I think photographer n the model has more right to authorise posting of their photos since the photo is not belongs to mua most of the time.

This part has always been confusing and raises some questions for me .... Why should TL post this pic .... He was definately not the photog ... which he has quite clearly stated ... unless there is something else that we are not aware of .... 1) was TL authorised to post this pic? 2) why did the photog not post it himself using his own nick? did he not know how to do it ... or was he ashamed of his own work? 3) what was the purpose of getting TL to post the pic? did he hope to get some sympathy pats on the back "good work dude ..." or did he expect to get gentler comments because it was posted by TL ... Raises a lot of questions for me ....
I would never want someone else to post my work ... why hide behind another person when you have done it ... be proud of it - good or bad ... A lot of new photogs come in here to post their work and get comments ... Good or Bad ... it is part of a learning experience.

I welcome critism, and hopefully is not "ren2 shen1 gong1 ji1" that kind.

Don't worry ... i dont see anyone attacking you ... just your work ...
BTW ... I am still keen to hear the comments from your mentor ... care to share ?

RGDs

 

[Connie]

very simple Bean, because the session was organised by TL. u know la, as new ppl, where do we hv the network or resources for a shoot. However, TL got the models, venue, equipments and his patience n time there to let JY try out different angles n to familiarise the devices. He know we dunno much about CS n so would like to introduce us. I'll say not much ppl are so helpful n sincere spending time with troubles in helping new ppl. JY is just a teenager n very new. in fact, the shoot was done when he just got his DSLR for less than 3 days.

 

[CreaXion]

very simple Bean, because the session was organised by TL. u know la, as new ppl, where do we hv the network or resources for a shoot. However, TL got the models, venue, equipments and his patience n time there to let JY try out different angles n to familiarise the devices. He know we dunno much about CS n so would like to introduce us. I'll say not much ppl are so helpful n sincere spending time with troubles in helping new ppl. JY is just a teenager n very new. in fact, the shoot was done when he just got his DSLR for less than 3 days.

For the effort that TL put in to guide, I salute him. How many of us would spend time on this? But I still cannot stand his self righteousness. Overly sensitive u know and that is what spark off the whole thing.

 

[zemotion]

very simple Bean, because the session was organised by TL. u know la, as new ppl, where do we hv the network or resources for a shoot. However, TL got the models, venue, equipments and his patience n time there to let JY try out different angles n to familiarise the devices. He know we dunno much about CS n so would like to introduce us. I'll say not much ppl are so helpful n sincere spending time with troubles in helping new ppl. JY is just a teenager n very new. in fact, the shoot was done when he just got his DSLR for less than 3 days.

i may not be very young but i'm not very old either. i did my first shoot 2-3 days after getting my first camera too. it didn't turn out perfect, but i knew to take my works as my own and post it myself.

and in the case if someone helped out, with tuck loong helping organize EVERYTHING. shouldn't the photographer who pressed the shutter or someone involved in the team come out and post the photos and THANK him? now it's you people i doubt about being sincere.

i'm sure alot of people, whether here or not, started out receiving alot of criticisms. whether you're established or not, there're still people who crit.

and i do see alot of helpful comments here, you shouldn't look at them being so biased and think that they're personal attacks. like my friend always says, if we can't take any crits, then i think we're not quite cut for the fashion industry. not everyone's so kind and gentle.

 

[student]

Fascinating thread! Some random thoughts on what were "discussed".

#1 I salute TL for his efforts to mentor his "younger colleagues" (For want of a better description). It is not difficult at all for accomplished photographers to set things up for their younger colleagues so that all they need to do is to press the shutter. Then a nice photo is made and the younger colleagues can post this on CS and say "Hey! Look at my picture! See how wonderful it is!"

But TL did not chose this way. No, he chose the hard way.

He chose to guide but also to allow his younger colleagues to make mistakes, and furthermore, to allow the mistakes to be scrutinised by members of CS, believing that the younger colleagues can learn from the comments from members here.

I understand TL's ways of doing things, and I too prefer this way of instruction, rather than spoon-feeding the younger ones. I too prefer the "students" to make mistakes while learning. I believe lessons learnt this way will last.

To those who imply that because some early images produced by students are bad and therefore the mentor is bad, I say bull to them! What nonsense! They have little understanding of different mentor methodologies.

Kudos to you TL!

#2 Unfortunately CS is not a forum where all members have noble intentions. As clearly recorded in this thread, there are some who write to ridicule and make fun of others. They seem to have an uncontrollable obssession to put others down. Fortunately there are many more others who write with sincerity and honest opinions that one can learn from. For the record, this image also do not appeal to me. But I must admit that I do not do this type of photography, so I might be speaking out of ignorance.

#3 What then transpired was unfortunate and messy. A volcano do not erupt for no good reasons. Seems to me TL was already pissed off by the imageries, words, and attitude of some members. The posting of another series of images also set the mood for his response.

From my perspective, I think TL over-reacted. However, I will agree 100% that self-censorship and regulation is necessary. But it is not necessary to "over-police". The admin and moderators will make sure the contents in CS will conform to the local regulations. They have to. Otherwise CS will close down. Since some issues here is related to those in another posted by TL, I will also make some random thoughts on that.

I am not particularly fond of legal terms. And I am really not sure if the regulations brought up by TL are the relevant ones. But one thing I know. I know that the gist of what TL intended is something I can certainly agree with.

I read with amusement such statements that "there are no limits", "just post and see" , photographing "wet vaginas", and various references to "freedom of expression" etc etc.

Well, I DO believe in artistic expression, and that one should have no limits in your creative imagination. By all means, go take pictures of wet vaginas and even better, creampies! But please, be consistent with yourself. If you truly believe that there should be no limit to expression, and that we can ignore local regulations, then please post these pictures in public and see what happens. No guts to do that? Then post pictures of wet vaginas and creampies in CS, and see what happens. No guts to do that? Well, why not just show them to your parents? Oh! What do these old foggies know anyway! To those who mentioned they like certain "interesting" movies and there should be no restriction to freedom to enjoy these movies, please show them to your young daughters. No? Are you exercising self-regulation?

Self-regulations is necessary. Social norms, while not absolute and do change from time to time, have to be respected. Every society have their threshold as to what is acceptable and what is not. One may published pictures of wet vaginas and creampies in adult magazines in the US. But see if you can get those published in Vogue.

Is TL one cancer cell? In my opinion, hardly so. But I do believe there are already cancers lurking around. While I think TL may have over-reacted, his intention to remind us of our social responsibility is timely.

 

[eikin]

to the team that produced this picture, i don't really care about the other issue TL is involved in here, honestly the picture almost gave me a heart attack, in my opinion it is the result of insufficient knowledge of and the lack of respect for culture. if you think otherwise, prove me wrong with your next experiment.

 

[mattlock]

From my perspective, I think TL over-reacted. However, I will agree 100% that self-censorship and regulation is necessary. But it is not necessary to "over-police". The admin and moderators will make sure the contents in CS will conform to the local regulations. They have to. Otherwise CS will close down. Since some issues here is related to those in another posted by TL, I will also make some random thoughts on that.

I am not particularly fond of legal terms. And I am really not sure if the regulations brought up by TL are the relevant ones. But one thing I know. I know that the gist of what TL intended is something I can certainly agree with.

I read with amusement such statements that "there are no limits", "just post and see" , photographing "wet vaginas", and various references to "freedom of expression" etc etc.

Well, I DO believe in terms of artistic expression, and that one should have no limits in your creative imagination. By all means, go take pictures of wet vaginas and even better, creampies! But please, be consistent with yourself. If you truly believe that there should be no limit to expression, and that we can ignore local regulations, then please post these pictures in public and see what happens. No guts to do that? Then post pictures of wet vaginas and creampies in CS, and see what happens. To those who mentioned they like certain "interesting" movies and there should be no restriction to freedom to enjoy these movies, please show them to your young daughters. No? Are you exercising self-regulation?

Self-regulations is necessary. Social norms, while not absolute and do change from time to time, have to be respected. Every society have their threshold as to what is acceptable and what is not. One may published pictures of wet vaginas and creampies in adult magazines in the US. But see if you can get those published in Vogue.

Is TL one cancer cell? In my opinion, hardly so. But I do believe there are already cancers lurking around. While I think TL may have over-reacted, his intention to remind us of our social responsibility is timely.

oh boy here we go again.
I would appreciate it if my words were not taken out of context again and again.
the mention of wet and sloppy vaginas was a JOKE
you know?Joke?ha ha? And there was no mention of PUBLISHING them. We talked about the degree of freedom of expression in various threads, but we did not say we were going to force our opinions on Singapore society, so please don't make it seem like we're a bunch of perverts out to rape the innocent babies and pure virgins walking the streets.

Let me point out that alot of people here already post nudes, you included, so don't get on your moral high horse about "self regulation" and "social norms" when you are doing the exact opposite by posting online what an auntie on the street would cluck her tongue at. What kind of hypocritical statement are you making saying things like "no guts to do that"? And what's with people always using children as the moral standard of what is acceptable and what is not? That argument has been used countless times by politicians or fanatical religious people and that argument is highly flawed!
There are alot of things I wouldn't show my daughter! Does that mean I should never watch PG-13 and above films since they aren't suitable for my daughter?
No one is talking about publishing in Vogue. who cares about Vogue anyway?

Do you see Clubsnap as a forum for kiddies or do we see ourselves as a community of photographers and photography enthusiasts?
We are here to share work and to grow as photographers. Personal opinions and interests vary, and some people's work will inadverdently piss someone else off. We are hopefully not made up of a community of aunties.
Let us practise more tolerance for imagery that we do not like. Tolerance to me is being able to say I hate the work, such as this image of Minyi, but I am not going to tell someone to take his images down. Because if a work provokes a reaction, then perhaps we can learn something from that work and figure out why it provokes such a reaction from us. This is the power of art.

This is a space where we can experiment and learn within a controlled environment. I am of the opinion that the forum is a good place to test what works and what doesn't, the last thing we need is photographers telling themselves "oh I shouldn't shoot this because someone might get irritated"

For f's sake, grow up and deal with criticism. welcome to the real world.

 

[student]

oh boy here we go again.
I would appreciate it if my words were not taken out of context again and again.
the mention of wet and sloppy vaginas was a JOKE
you know?Joke?ha ha? And there was no mention of PUBLISHING them
Let me point out that alot of people here already post nudes, you included, so don't get on your moral high horse about "self regulation" and "social norms" when you are doing the exact opposite by posting online what an auntie on the street would cluck her tongue at. What kind of hypocritical statement are you making saying things like "no guts to do that?"
No one is talking about publishing in Vogue. who cares about Vogue anyway?

boy oh boy! there you go again!

What sh1t are you talking about! I practice self-regulation all the time. You have absolutely no idea what kinds of photos I had made, so stop talking crap.

Hypocrisy? Do you know the meaning of this word? I have guts to post my nude pictures in CS. Did CS remove them? I have other pictures which I did not post in CS. What does this say? That with my self-regulation I post images that conform to the acceptable norms here in CS. For those of you who champion unrestricted freedom, now show your guts as a man (if you are one) by posting those "interesting images.

Do you see Clubsnap as a forum for kiddies or do we see ourselves as a community of photographers and photography enthusiasts?
We are here to share work and to grow as photographers. Personal opinions and interests vary, and some people's work will inadverdently piss someone else off. We are hopefully not made up of a community of aunties.
Let us practise more tolerance for imagery that we do not like. Tolerance to me is being able to say I hate the work, such as this image of Minyi, but I am not going to tell someone to take his images down. Because if a work provokes a reaction, then perhaps we can learn something from that work and figure out why it provokes such a reaction from us. This is the power of art.

This is a space where we can experiment and learn within a controlled environment.

This image clearly does not work, and I can understand that some will voice strong opinions. Kudos to you that do not tell someone to take his image down, but you do tolerate some who do. And you will also want these to come in. Are you a partner in crime with those?

This is a space we can experiment and learn. Absolutely right. But any kind of image? ANY KIND?

 

[mattlock]

and one more thing regarding criticism,
we as community members here do not gain anything from making comments about work ok.
Even if there are personal attacks directed at you (which there weren't), suck it up and try to see why people are making those comments, and if their criticisms do not stand, then shrug it off. Learn to stand up for your work!
You should be happy you got so many responses. your first images and you have a 4 page thread

wah
lao
eh

 

[mattlock]

boy oh boy! there you go again!

What sh1t are you talking about! I practice self-regulation all the time. You have absolutely what kinds of photos I had made, so stop talking crab.

Hypocrisy? Do you know the meaning of this word? I have guts to post my nude pictures in CS. Did CS remove them? I have other pictures which I did not post in CS. What does this say? That with my self-regulation I post images that conform to the acceptable norms here in CS. For those of you who champion unrestricted freedom, now show your guts as a man (if you are one) by posting those "interesting images.

This image clearly does not work, and I can understand that some will voice strong opinions. Kudos to you that do not tell someone to take his image down, but you do tolerate some who do. And you will also want these to come in. Are you a partner in crime with those?

This is a space we can experiment and learn. Absolutely right. But any kind of image? ANY KIND?

Ok this is really silly.
"show your guts as a man (if you are one)"
What are we, in secondary school? While we're at it why don't we compare who has a larger camera and whip out our penises and shake them at each other?

Sorry I do not get what you are driving at. I don't recall ever feeling like anyone should take an image down. The wonder of the internet forum is that if the image is crap chances are the thread will be so unpopular that it'll just die out. Natural selection in the Internet Age.
Yes, I will tolerate any kind of images, including yours.ha ha!
Maybe if you practised less self censorship I might finally see some of the more interesting images of yours.

I would like to add something constructive to this thread now:
Some of the best works ever made have been those that have been provocative, that have gone against social norms, that have pushed boundaries.
There have been many works that have been deemed filth by society when released and then held in reverence later on.
Henry Miller is one such person that comes to mind.

I would like to take this moment to give a shout out to bobdoom for his absolutely tasteless (to me) but hilarious nonetheless images.
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=225941

 

[wildstallion]

The photo is honestly a complete mess. I dont have anything good to say about it (and whenever I critique I try and put a + point). Lighting is terrible, makeup is very extreme and looks all over the place (if this isnt intentional then the photog has captured it at the worst possible angle, ever!), composition is non existant in my opinion, and that dress, seriously?

Now for you opinions regarding Drumma and his images, well, there all OT (your such a rebel, CS doesnt like OT remember!)

Seriously, you can have your narrow minded views, but you do not get the right to hold them over us. Next time you see something that offends you, close the window and shut up. I think this forum has had enough of your attempted totalitarian attitude towards photos (well i know i have). I agree with everything that Mattlock has said, and student, what the hell are you on about?

 

[student]

Ok this is really silly.
"show your guts as a man (if you are one)"
What are we, in secondary school? While we're at it why don't we compare who has a larger camera and whip out our penises and shake them at each other?

Of course i am being silly here. Can't you see a joke?

But the idea is, be consistent with oneself. If one really believes that there must be absolutely no restriction of freedom and that society norms be pushed aside, then do it! If not, hypocrisy it is!

For me, I practice self-regulation. I even called up Wolfgang to seek his advice when I first posted a nude. I do take into account the sensitivities of social norms.

Sorry I do not get what you are driving at. I don't recall ever feeling like anyone should take an image down. The wonder of the internet forum is that if the image is crap chances are the thread will be so unpopular that it'll just die out. Natural selection in the Internet Age.

An image nobody will care for will be ignored. Quite a few of mine were! I am not talking about this. And I know you did not ask anybody to trash their image.

I was talking about people who tell others to trash their image. One of these is well known to you. And you invoke his name in this thread.

Yes, I will tolerate any kind of images, including yours.ha ha!
Maybe if you practised less self censorship I might finally see some of the more interesting images of yours.

Thank you. And like-wise I tolerate yours.

Now I hope you will also practise less self-censorship. Maybe if you did, we might see a little more of that crouch! That would be interesting! (I do not mean to be crude, but to bring a point across. No insult to the model is meant. I do like that image)

I would like to add something constructive to this thread now:
Some of the best works ever made have been those that have been provocative, that have gone against social norms, that have pushed boundaries.
There have been many works that have been deemed filth by society when released and then held in reverence later on.
Henry Miller is one such person that comes to mind.

I would like to take this moment to give a shout out to bobdoom for his absolutely tasteless (to me) but hilarious nonetheless images.
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=225941

OK, I will also be more constructive.

My question to you is this.

Why is it that "pushing the boundaries" and "provocative" must be sexual in nature? Perhaps because it is THAT apple? A forbidden fruit, therefore there is that longing? Must "pushing the boundaries" involve sex - something which comes across so blatantly obvious in your images and writings?

I like portraiture. I just bought a book by Ken Ohara. His book "One" was so amazing that John S (Director of MOMA, I believe) felt that the images were disturbing and that they deserved to be seen by more. Here was a work that pushed the boundaries of portraiture and was provocative in nature.

Was sex involved? No! Just the face.

Now that's creative!

But it seems to me that for many, sex is the easy way out. They have little creative thinking, but will use sex to sell. Just like using females to sell a watch. I am not saying that we should not explore sexuality and sex. But seems to be that sex is the overwhelming theme when it comes to be "provocative" and "pushing the boundaries".

Now regarding works that was deem to be offensive but regarded later. That was what I said, did I not? Societal norms changed. And with people's attitude changing, what was unacceptable become acceptable.

Let me relate a true experience. A friend of mine, a photographer, had a series of images which was a "collaboration" between him and another female photographer. The images were highly sexual in nature. I saw this series in its unedited form, and was amazed by the power and intensity. I asked if he had sold any of the images. He said no. I asked if he intended to publish them as a monograph. He replied he would like to. But no! He could not. Why? Because no publisher will do it! Now this friend of mine is one of those blokes who do not care a sh1t about what other people think about him, despite almost being a pauper! But he knew that there are societal norms to be reckoned with. So this work will have to wait for a while before the world can see it!

His creativity enabled him to make these images. Unfortunately, even an obstinate fellow like my friend had to toe the line when it comes to showing them.

 

[student]

and student, what the hell are you on about?

What's your beef?

I do not like vague comments like these. If you have anything to say about what I wrote, then come clear!

Let us take things point to point.

 

[wildstallion]

What's your beef?

I do not like vague comments like these. If you have anything to say about what I wrote, then come clear!

Let us take things point to point.

Its ok, your latest post cleared up what I was unclear about, apologies for the vague comment.

 

[Wolfgang]

I think this has gone on long and far enough, dont you think?

On one hand, it is good to see passion and how involved everyone is in sharing their views but unfortunately, not everyone agrees on everything all the time. Now, I will be shutting this thread down because TL himself, as well as the photog/MUA involved would have read all the feedback by now and there is seriously no point flogging a dead horse.

Not here anyway so the thread is hereby closed.

Should anyone wishes to take any further actions or continue this discussion, please do so privately via PM and resolve it amicably.

Its really getting quite out of hand if every single thread here in P&P gets dragged through all these feuds. I honestly will not allow it nor tolerate it.

I hope each and everyone of you understand.

Thank you.