MichaelLee
Senior Member
giddygoat said:
this is something strange.. before we make ourselves as serious EPL tittle challanger...We had succeed to make it as really serious CL tittle challenger. :think:
LFC - You'll Never Walk Alone
- Thread starter fox
- Start date
- Status
this is something strange.. before we make ourselves as serious EPL tittle challanger...We had succeed to make it as really serious CL tittle challenger. :think:
wong_se said:
Not true. Even if he's scoring hattricks, Arsene will rest him for certain matches, IIRC, he did not play most of the LC matches and some of the FA cup matches.
Sometimes, players need rest. Simple as that. I have no wish to second guess how tired a player is. It's the mgr's job to ensure player dun suffer burn-outs and injuries. Remember how Houllier protected Owen or Moyes protected Rooney? Eventhough they are scoring and playing well, they were benched so that they dun suffer burn-outs. Even Arsenal dun play Campbell in all matches when he's fit.
wong_se said:
I think Biscan will not be able to stay even in Rafa wants him to. I think he did not play enough matches in the league for Liverpool. Problem with Biscan is that he's croatian and not under EU so he has to play a min. no. of matches. Same goes for Dudek, but he definitely qualify.
wong_se said:
so were leeds a few years ago. the CL is very tough but it is still a cup. in the league, consistency is the key ingredient for success. the team must have the motivation and the squad depth to survive the weekly grind. you can afford to play for a draw in the CL especially when away. in the league, you must win regardlessly where you are. drop any points and you may live to regret it.
another thing is that EPL teams know each other well and are better able to prepare. liverpool had the problem of being extremely predictable especially under houllier so teams know how to neutralise us. under rafa, especially with alonso around, the team does show better variety in their play but had not yet been consistent enough. they still tended to slide back sometimes. if we can keep alonso and hopefully gerrard, the main thing we would then need are wingers. our wing play is still not incisive enough. riise is a fantastic player and he works hard and scores goal but he is not fast or skillful enough, nor is he creative and accurate enough with his passes. having an skillful player as an option there would give us variety. kewell....dunno what happened to him liao. the less said about the right wing the better.
our set-pieces are another problem. EPL teams depend on that a lot. we just don't score enough from the set pieces nor do we defend them well enough. everytime we conceed corners, i just feel that the team doesn't deal with the ball decisively enough and we do tend to let the opposition sneak headers in.
work on the defence (zone or otherwise) and get a good set-piece taker (never had a decent one since redknapp was it?) and work out some good scoring routines. maybe we'll do better. also, learn to curl free kicks. you don't always get to score by blasting the ball towards goal as hard as possible.
i also feel the team needs work on their stamina and fitness. one possible cause of injuries are always due to lack of fitness. also, we tend to play well in spots and fade later. we play best when we play the high tempo game like that you saw when we played against juve in the first half. pass quickly and move fast. juve had no answer to us then. later we slowed things down and lost our impetus and never got it back. maybe that particular time it was a strategic move but i see us fade too often after a bright start.
enough long nonsense stories from me. time to haul myself away from the com and do something useful :bsmilie:
wong_se said:
It's not that strange actually. If you look at all our injury problems, most of it happens in early part of the season. By the time Christmas comes around, we are already no chance of catching Chelsea.
Same goes for why Chelsea seems so invincible. They picks up a lot of 1-0 win before Robben gets back, then they start trashing opp. They are also very consistent. Arsenal and Man U are just not consistent enough to challenge Chelsea. Not to mention, Chelsea is pretty lucky (results bet Chelsea and Liverpool vs Liverpool and Arsenal, a 6 pts swing alread).
Same thing abt everton, thats why liverpool cannot catch up. If you look at our last 3 mths performance, our goal differences, our home form, we are definitely one of the top 4 teams.
Also, dun forget CL is still very much a knock out tournament. Our style (few goals, condede little) is suitable for cup matches, same for Chelsea, Juve and Milan for that matter. This is the reason why GH can win 3 European cup finals whereas Arsene won none in Europe.
Agree with giddygoat.
Just to add on. The pace in Europe suits liverpool better as well. We can surprise european opp with our speed (and even our inconsistent plays!) but not so in EPL.
When teams play against RM, Man U, Arsenal etc they know their strength is in attack. So they just camp and wait for counter attack etc.
Just to add on. The pace in Europe suits liverpool better as well. We can surprise european opp with our speed (and even our inconsistent plays!) but not so in EPL.
When teams play against RM, Man U, Arsenal etc they know their strength is in attack. So they just camp and wait for counter attack etc.
MichaelLee
Senior Member
nemesis32 said:
yes..agree. U rest players in certain occasion. henry did get his rest, so Houllier protect Owen and Moyes on Rooney.
But not like Hyypia case..Play 1 game and rest 1 game. he is not here for his honeymoon, nor i think he does enjoy this situation as well.
MichaelLee
Senior Member
giddygoat said:
Well said...in the first 10 matches...we were experiencing zone defending. that did not work at high pace EPL games. We lost some matches there.
We did not really defend well at setpieces..and we lost some matches there...ie Joe Cole winning goal against us in 2004.
then josemi...i can point out he is accounted for at least 10 goals conceded. In the match we drew with Blackburn 2-2, he accounted for both goals. Even worse than Traore during his 2003-2004 seasons. we lost some matches there.
Then before Morientes arrived...and Cisse broke his leg..we had played Kewell and Garcia..both did not score any goals during that period...we drew some matches there.
And there are lots of chance...but Baros selfishness and ignore his teamate..we did not score enough goals. we drew some matches there.
So far...we have been very consistent being inconsistency.
it is true that U never walk alone. My heart and hope rise to the sky and sink to the ground.
If we win CL..but fail to qualify for next year CL at the last day of EPL....what a dramatic year we have in 2004-2005 season. :sweat:
wong_se said:
HEhe... i am sure Owen had complained before and perhaps Rooney as well before he's off to Man U.
Ultimately, you can see that Mgrs tends to rest their star players, just like Rafa resting Gerrard. So, it's not true to say that Rafa dun think Hyypia as his best player in CD. I think he does, just that he wanted to rest Hyypia as well as give Pelle a run out.
Typically, mgr take calculated risk to rest various players. So for Sir Alex, also take calculated risk to play players llike RVN when he's not fully fit or Rio, after 8 mths layoff. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it don't.
As giddygoat has pointed out, no pt harping over stats, as it's not fully representative, as you and i as accountant will know better.
I do think it's not co-incident that liverpool have lost matches Pelle plays in.You see, Pelle played most matches over CL games since he's cup-tied and liverpool usually play lousy in matches after CL games. This i believe is no co-incident since Man U and Arsenal also suffers such problem in the past. Reason is simple, players are tired. So if you paly a tired Hyypia in these matches, i believe the result will be no diff. And dun give me the fact that Hyypia scores with both feet and volley some more. If thats the case, all the more Pelle shd play. Why? Simply because, you dun see Hyypia scores for years until now. Perhaps, he's challenged by Pelle and thus responded positively. People reacts strangely to stimulus. Maybe by benching Pelle, hyypia will play badly as he no longer feel threatened, challenged?
Also,as giddygoat has mentioned, those matches Pelle is involved, the whole team dun play well, including Gerrard etc. So, by playing Hyypia, situation will not change.
MichaelLee
Senior Member
nemesis32 said:HEhe... i am sure Owen had complained before and perhaps Rooney as well before he's off to Man U.
Ultimately, you can see that Mgrs tends to rest their star players, just like Rafa resting Gerrard. So, it's not true to say that Rafa dun think Hyypia as his best player in CD. I think he does, just that he wanted to rest Hyypia as well as give Pelle a run out.
Typically, mgr take calculated risk to rest various players. So for Sir Alex, also take calculated risk to play players llike RVN when he's not fully fit or Rio, after 8 mths layoff. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it don't.
As giddygoat has pointed out, no pt harping over stats, as it's not fully representative, as you and i as accountant will know better.
You see, Pelle played most matches over CL games since he's cup-tied and liverpool usually play lousy in matches after CL games. This i believe is no co-incident since Man U and Arsenal also suffers such problem in the past. Reason is simple, players are tired. So if you paly a tired Hyypia in these matches, i believe the result will be no diff. And dun give me the fact that Hyypia scores with both feet and volley some more. If thats the case, all the more Pelle shd play. Why? Simply because, you dun see Hyypia scores for years until now. Perhaps, he's challenged by Pelle and thus responded positively. People reacts strangely to stimulus. Maybe by benching Pelle, hyypia will play badly as he no longer feel threatened, challenged?
Also,as giddygoat has mentioned, those matches Pelle is involved, the whole team dun play well, including Gerrard etc. So, by playing Hyypia, situation will not change.
u protect player...may be use him for 70% of the game.. The stretagy of a manager to rest player is to run him for 3 games..then rest 1 or 2 games..
But not like Hyypia case...play 1 game..rest 1 game...
stats are fact...non debatable. if u avoid talking based on facts..but rather discuss it in a more objective way of giving various reason...then I am speechless here.
Players are tired after CL games ?...that could be the reason for liverpool to find excuse ..
If after CL games player are tired..then why Chelsea, AC Milan and Juventus can still top their respective league while progressing in the CL as well.
Playing in treble even very tiring...how did MU did that ? Remember at that keane or older than gerrard today..
we did that too 4 years ago, Cup Treble. Never heard that they were tired..only when u lost..then tired become one of the reason.
anything can happen in football. there's no right or wrong tactics before or during a football match, only after the match. rafa took an educated gamble by resting one of his first team CD and giving pelle a run in.
i had not wished for the signing of pelle as to bring in a player in mid season, especially when the team was still unsettled is never wise. but if we had to bring in a player, pelle would not be a bad risk. he played under rafa before, he had plenty of experience playing and he's free. bad point is mainly that he's damn slow and perhaps have difficulty communicating in english (dunno?). but could we have gotten anyone else with the funds we have? and we needed the cover.
i don't think he had been that horrible a defender, except in the earlier games. can we really point our finger on that one man and said we dropped points because of him. in the past few matches, pelle was nowhere near our worst player. and hyypia played as well when we lost to southampton, newcastle and drew spurs among others. perhaps the partnership between carra and hyypia is the best we have but the partnership between carra and pelle wasn't too bad either. when hyypia partnered pelle it wasn't so solid but was it so wrong to try and find more than one partner with your best CD? if you don't try, you don't know. after all, carra and hyypia was never on the cards before the start of this season. if you have 3 or more CDs (especially if one or more are new to the club), it would be naive to keep playing only the same 2 together. what happens when you lose one? you have 2 strangers bumping into each other? i think rafa fielded pelle simply because he knew that he needed to be prepared for the eventuality that he may lose a defender at a key moment in the season. what if hyypia got red-carded during a game. bringing on pelle who had not played a single competitive match beside carra would be suicidal.
stats? what stats we had mainly said that a team of 11 (or more if you count subs) players didn't do too great and among them was pellegrino playing in place of hyypia. what about things like tackling accuracy? balls given away? passing accuracy? crucial tackles made? those are the real stats we can use to compare 2 CDs and even then, we're hard pressed to draw conclusions because the samples sizes are too small and the no. of variables are too many (diff opponents, different levels of performances by team mates, diff tactics, wind direction, things they ate for breakfast...).
don't get me wrong, i agree that hyypia is a better defender on anyday. but i do think that we should be able to afford to rest him and still do well. just like we can rest gerrard and win. if we had our full complement of forwards and midfielders, perhaps rafa would have rotated more players than just hyypia.
i agree with you that perhaps he had been rested too much but the performances of pellegrino in recent matches does not really show that he cannot fill in the role. and hyypia may score goals in a few recent games but we cannot say that hyypia would have scored if we had played him cos statistically (and i think we can look at stats here), defenders do not score much and nor should they be looked upon as a source of goals. the point of defenders are to prevent the concession of goals and i don't think pelle did too badly in this area compared to hyypia.
i had not wished for the signing of pelle as to bring in a player in mid season, especially when the team was still unsettled is never wise. but if we had to bring in a player, pelle would not be a bad risk. he played under rafa before, he had plenty of experience playing and he's free. bad point is mainly that he's damn slow and perhaps have difficulty communicating in english (dunno?). but could we have gotten anyone else with the funds we have? and we needed the cover.
i don't think he had been that horrible a defender, except in the earlier games. can we really point our finger on that one man and said we dropped points because of him. in the past few matches, pelle was nowhere near our worst player. and hyypia played as well when we lost to southampton, newcastle and drew spurs among others. perhaps the partnership between carra and hyypia is the best we have but the partnership between carra and pelle wasn't too bad either. when hyypia partnered pelle it wasn't so solid but was it so wrong to try and find more than one partner with your best CD? if you don't try, you don't know. after all, carra and hyypia was never on the cards before the start of this season. if you have 3 or more CDs (especially if one or more are new to the club), it would be naive to keep playing only the same 2 together. what happens when you lose one? you have 2 strangers bumping into each other? i think rafa fielded pelle simply because he knew that he needed to be prepared for the eventuality that he may lose a defender at a key moment in the season. what if hyypia got red-carded during a game. bringing on pelle who had not played a single competitive match beside carra would be suicidal.
stats? what stats we had mainly said that a team of 11 (or more if you count subs) players didn't do too great and among them was pellegrino playing in place of hyypia. what about things like tackling accuracy? balls given away? passing accuracy? crucial tackles made? those are the real stats we can use to compare 2 CDs and even then, we're hard pressed to draw conclusions because the samples sizes are too small and the no. of variables are too many (diff opponents, different levels of performances by team mates, diff tactics, wind direction, things they ate for breakfast...).
don't get me wrong, i agree that hyypia is a better defender on anyday. but i do think that we should be able to afford to rest him and still do well. just like we can rest gerrard and win. if we had our full complement of forwards and midfielders, perhaps rafa would have rotated more players than just hyypia.
i agree with you that perhaps he had been rested too much but the performances of pellegrino in recent matches does not really show that he cannot fill in the role. and hyypia may score goals in a few recent games but we cannot say that hyypia would have scored if we had played him cos statistically (and i think we can look at stats here), defenders do not score much and nor should they be looked upon as a source of goals. the point of defenders are to prevent the concession of goals and i don't think pelle did too badly in this area compared to hyypia.
anyway, let's not argue about this. i think we can debate this till the cows come home and neither one of us would be anymore than 50% correct. i conceed you have a good point though with some reservations.
i must say, our LFC players seemed too be more ku niang than other teams sometimes. more injuries, cannot play well in consecutive games, travel sickness (maybe they miss mommy or get carsick easily?) etc etc.
fitness and motivation? these are two vital factors to achieve consistency. perhaps we lack one or both? and don't forget talent. the likes of man utd or chelsea sometimes do appear to be slower of the mark after a midweek game. likely they too are tired. but with better players, even at 50% they can beat many teams. all they need is a moment of magic from one of their many stars. and even these teams, sometimes you see the subs like van persie or joe cole coming on and rescuing the team. we lack that kind of strength in depth.
and one thing is that many teams believe they can beat us. unlike arsenal etc, we look vulnerable. when teams play against man utd, arsenal, chelsea, milan etc, they are very cautious and perhaps give them too much respect. for us, most teams know they have a fighting chance to nail us especially if they can score early.
i must say, our LFC players seemed too be more ku niang than other teams sometimes. more injuries, cannot play well in consecutive games, travel sickness (maybe they miss mommy or get carsick easily?) etc etc.
fitness and motivation? these are two vital factors to achieve consistency. perhaps we lack one or both? and don't forget talent. the likes of man utd or chelsea sometimes do appear to be slower of the mark after a midweek game. likely they too are tired. but with better players, even at 50% they can beat many teams. all they need is a moment of magic from one of their many stars. and even these teams, sometimes you see the subs like van persie or joe cole coming on and rescuing the team. we lack that kind of strength in depth.
and one thing is that many teams believe they can beat us. unlike arsenal etc, we look vulnerable. when teams play against man utd, arsenal, chelsea, milan etc, they are very cautious and perhaps give them too much respect. for us, most teams know they have a fighting chance to nail us especially if they can score early.
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N148576050421-1638.htm
heskey...it's great to see his heart is still with liverpool even after gerrard houllier almost wrecked his career. i do hope we can see the heskey of leicester days again.
heskey...it's great to see his heart is still with liverpool even after gerrard houllier almost wrecked his career. i do hope we can see the heskey of leicester days again.
MichaelLee
Senior Member
giddygoat said:
i agree on this.. We seem to have mo injuries. More leg being broken.
Fitness level ?? I think Rafa can help the team. He was a fitness trainer before he turned into manger.
What we are lacking now is consistency ? I believe this can only be achieved if the squad is consistent. Rafa has to figure out the best 13-15.
If u play Cisse this week, baros new week, Hyypia this week, Pelle next week, even player selection is not consistent , there will be no consistency.
Once u get the first 11-13, u gel to it and make seldom changes in the starting line up. Unless they are injured or not fully fit..
Besides of the article written on Heskey.....there is also something about Biscan. The Czech captian is urging the Coach to recall Biscan after he had displayed some good performance this season....
MichaelLee
Senior Member
wong_se said:
Con-incidently, 1 day after I again make my view to promote the youth member from the acamedic...UEFA enfore the ruling for home grown quotas for those team who play in UEFA Champion League.
"From the start of the 2006-07 season clubs must include four
home-grown players in their 25-man squads with the figure rising to six in
2007-08 and eight in 2008-09.
UEFA defines home-grown players as those who have been trained by their
clubs or by another club or national academy in the same country for at
least three years between the ages of 15 and 21."
By 2006-2007, we will need 4 home grown player to be in the squad to play for CL. If we manage to keep the current squad, we will have ;
kirland, Welsh, Scott Carson, Gerrard, Carra, Warnock, Mellor, Kewell...etc..etc.
By 2008-2009, club need 8 home grown players. Under the criteria set by UEFA, Liverpool no problem at all...
Sinama, Le Tallec are also considered home-grown talent since they joined us
at age 18/19, and by year 2006 would have been more than 3 years with LFC.
In fact, I think Arsenal would have many more 'homegrown' players than the
other teams (Chelsea, MU) bcos Wenger has signed many good young players and bring to its academy...ie ..Kolo Toure, Fabregas, Flamini and Sanderos...
but for MU, by that time, Neville brothers and Scholes retired, Alan Smith sold to Southampton (only scored 7goals this season), and Rooney tested HIV positive (we all know he visited brothel more often than Old Trafford). may be O'Shea is left behind. but they need to have 8 players !!!!!
Cheesecake
Senior Member
wa say...
i think arsenal and chelski will haf a tougher time meeting the criteria!
are irish, northern irish, scottish and welsh considered home-grown?
quite difficult to make that one out!
You'll Never Walk Alone!!
i think arsenal and chelski will haf a tougher time meeting the criteria!
are irish, northern irish, scottish and welsh considered home-grown?
quite difficult to make that one out!
You'll Never Walk Alone!!
MichaelLee
Senior Member
nemesis32 said:
Hyypia need challenged to play good football ? Hyppia playing well NOW becos he's fresh?
As far as I remember, Hyppia has been playing well for the past 5 years.. He and Hamman have bee playing most consistently , much consistent to any other player on the field..
Even if u want to let Hyppia rest, pls find a younger, faster CD as replacement
and apprentice lar.. but not an older and slower Pelle.
And if he really want to rest Hyppia, why not play Henchoz, remember him? I
doubt henchoz can be any worse than Pelle..
So Pellegrino is here to teach Carra how to win UEFA Cup and La Liga, is it?
Carra had won the UEFA before Pelle won it for Valencia..he certainly did not need to learn much from Pelle...indeed Pelle has to learn from Carra how to defend in EPL. He needs to run in tackle, block shot, approach them rather then waiting the opponents to step in his zone (so called "zone defending").
Most importanyl, he needs to learn how to fight and play with the entire heart and soul to defend liverpool from conceding goal.
Indeed, this kind of experiment was carried out by Sir Fergie before, with Lauren Blanc. And the result - MU had even more goal conceded before Blanc joined them. Nor Lanc did manage to teach his experience to the youngsters. Obvsiouly O Shea, Wes borwn didn't turned into another Campbells or Terry, and Man Utd still ended up paying high prices for defenders like Rio Ferdinand and Heinze.
Again..because I defend too strong..that might have given u a wrong impression...during jan transfer window..we really have not much choice. Pelle is a good temporary signing. He is free and a not too bad/but nothing spectacular defender. An average defender who has height and size...we need this player to defend the crossing and corner kick in EPL.
he can be playing for Hyypia when Hyypia is not available.
My view is simple - he should not start ahead when hyypia is available.
Of course..Rafa , the manager has all his knowledge about which is the best team to choose from.
So far...1 season almost gone. I am holding back my :thumbsup: for him.
He had done us proud in in the CL..but not in EPL.
4 EPL matches left..we have to win 4..and pray hard hard that Everton will at least lose 2 matches out of their remaining 5.
Calling Heskey ...ROger..roger...where are u ? Pls bang in a winning goal this saturday, for Birmingham and Liverpool as well..... :sweat:
wong_se said:
I always feel that under GH, liverpool seems to tired out very easily because we play more defensively. Under Rafa, we seems to improve slightly, except for those matches after CL. If you look at the stats of matches we played after CL, you will relise the problem is prob with Fitness and Fatigue rather subbing for Pelle as pointed out by giddygoat.
We have conceded many late goals this season, think Chelsea, Everton (almost draw that match after 2-0 up), Southamption etc. All these are most likely due to fatigue. You can sub for 3 players but all 11 played in CL so no choice but to play a few as starters.
As for consistency, i think you cannot judge Rafa on this season. Given our injuries to Cisse, Pongolle, Baros, Mellor, Kewell, Hamann, Gerrard, Garcia, Alonso, Smicer, Nunez, Kirkland and god knows who else i have missed out. Plus the players that we sign this year like Carson,Alonso, Nunez, Josemi, Morientes, Garcia and Pelle.
Not forgetting 1st team players who left on loan/sale such as Owen, Heskey, Murphy, Diouf, Diao, La Tallec and Henchoz...
I think we have done remarkably well. Kudos to Rafa. I do think he has in mind his 1st 11 and prob the 5 subs. Maybe i can second guess....
Keeper: Dudek (R: Kirkland)
Defenders: Finnan, Traore, Hyypia, Carragher (R
elle)Midfielder: Riise, Gerrard, Garcia and Alonso (R: Biscan, Hamann)
Attacker: Morientes, Cisse (R: Baros, Kewell)
Actually i will fancy the above team to play against any team and do well if we are in full strength. Of the above, maybe Dudek, Finnan and Traore can be replaced with better players. The rest are all top class internationals. Too bad we have so many injuries.
wong_se said:
To be honest, all the english teams will have no problem lah. Only exception i think is Chelsea. You see any young players coming up from within? none. Robert Huth is one good CD that dun get to player. Even Bayern is interested....
Man U may also suffer a bit but i think they will still be fine since they have Smith, Rooney, Rio, O Shea etc. I think even Ronaldo may be counted?
Arsenal definitely no problem as they signed plenty of players at young age.
- Status
Similar threads
