I really don’t know what I’m defending any more.

[brapodam]

Just think about it from the company's point of view. If i send the local for training, i lose the worker for however many days it needs to complete the lessons. Then there's the salary during the training period. Then the training costs. And of course in typical government fashion, the paperwork to get the grants for the training.

At the end of it all, the company gets a freshly trained worker.

Alternative, hire some FT that has some experience, can start now and is willing to accept a lower pay. Fairly obvious choice if you're the boss.

It's nearly impossible to compete with a FT even if the skillsets, job experience is the same. Simply because they can do the same for less. Lower cost of living back home. We've got no back home to run to.

From a company's point of view, it makes a lot of sense. It is their own decision whether they want to support locals or not. Sadly many of them are not doing it. But you see, one of the reasons (if not the main reason) of getting FTs is that we need them to fill up posts that our locals can't do. If we ignore the cost savings part for a moment, actually we do not need that many of them. Locals can do it, with a bit of training. Trouble now is that the FTs are too many, they are too readily available for companies to exploit. That is why companies are starting to ignore locals altogether, finding ways to bypass quotas set by the government.

In short, we do not have a lack of talent, we have a ready pool of talent waiting to be developed, just that they are not, and so it seems that Singaporeans are useless.


Regarding the war thing, yes life is unfair. People don't appreciate when other countries help them. USA helped al-Qaeda in funding and training to fight the communists, and see what they have become now, a terror organisation working against the USA. But that's not really relevant, I don't think FTs will all go back to their homeland, bringing all their money back, and help it develop and then start laughing at us because we helped them get ahead of us.

 

[mattlock]

Actually I'm wondering..

two problems:
1- Singaporeans are not as good as FT
2- Singaporeans are more expensive than FT

problem 2 arises from cost of living spiraling upwards in the past decade.

I remember very clearly when taxi prices suddenly jumped, from $2.30 starting fare with 10cent increases to now $3 starting fare with 20cent increases. Also when hawker food used to be at the most $3 a plate and now at least
Drinks $1 now $1.30
public Transport..about 15-20% increase

and housing? That's the killer. even HDB housing has jumped.

I don't think our incomes have grown fast enough to match the rising cost of living

And there's no avoiding that there are other countries that are able to do the things we do at cheaper rates.

And frankly for the industries that Singapore is pushing for (biochem,service,financial), FT can fill those roles.

If so many people are feeling negatively then perhaps there's some truth to these feelings and they shouldn't be brushed off so easily

We keep hearing about upgrading skills, but upgrading skills is fine and dandy when there's enough of a market for such skills.
Is the market too saturated with a supply of people already?
Is there a way we can upgrade our skills and take it to a market which is not so saturated?

In that case I would like to suggest that Singapore push for emigration of university grads, because Singaporeans are highly trained at following orders, are good in english generally and are generally well educated, plus we have a good brand name.

What do you guys think Singaporeans are better at than people from SEA?

What do you guys think Singaporeans are better at than people from France, Germany, America?

 

[allenleonhart]

In short, we do not have a lack of talent, we have a ready pool of talent waiting to be developed, just that they are not, and so it seems that Singaporeans are useless.

hence my point: balance out the hiring of FTs with the development of local talents

 

[mattlock]

one big problem here is "cost-savings"
everyone talks about "cost-savings"
how about back in the days where the government told us to support "Made in Singapore" products?

seems like the days of supporting causes which have intangible values are gone, and all that matters is the bottom line.

Some education is in order...and we can affect that change.
In the service line, fast food chains that used to hire Singaporean aunties had the added intangible branding benefit of helping these aunties earn their keep through employment.

When they switch to foreign workers that sense of ownership and connection to that brand suffers, which affects my decision to eat at that place

how many people feel like me? Hard to say, perhaps some research is in order.
But as a company, if I realise that I'm losing business because of something like that, then the calculation of cost-savings becomes more complex.

Do you think this is a funny way of thinking? Think back to some japanese restaurants you walked into, where you got greeted by a filipino service staff. Kind of mentally destroys your image of the authenticity of such a place irght?

There are benefits to hiring FT, and there are pitfalls too.
If we wish to point out these pitfalls, perhaps it's a good time to actually do some research and surveys and provide some comprehensive documentation.

 

[mattlock]

also an anecdote:

when a business owner friend posted a listing in the classifieds, he got a call from an agent who had a ready supply of 10 chinese workers who he was offering.

Businesses complain about how hard it is to hire Singaporeans, maybe it's more that FT are SO much easier to hire?

 

[deadsea]

Actually I'm wondering..

two problems:
1- Singaporeans are not as good as FT
2- Singaporeans are more expensive than FT

problem 2 arises from cost of living spiraling upwards in the past decade.

IMHO, I really don't think that the comparative cost of local workers is entirely tied to cost of living. It's more of labor policies. Sure, we need/want to be paid more due to cost of living. But gov't policies regulate how many FT there are in the first place. Companies can't hire as many FT as they want when there's not enough of them. Or jack up their levies to the point where they have to match that of a locals salary. A fair competition is what I'm hoping for, not handouts.

And faster, better should be the point. Not cheaper. It's impossible to beat out other countries that can do things cheaper unless we're China or India.

And that goes back to the first point. FT appear better simply because they are cheaper. How is the fresh grad going to compete with the guy with 5 years experience if they are willing to accept the same pay? Or degree vs masters? It's the ultimate employers' dream, cheap and good. Policies need to fix the cheap. Then we can compete on the good.

 

[hanqiang1011]

Young Singaporeans like Lim Zi Rui are becoming increasingly disillusioned and they’re not afraid to let it show.

The 23-year-old final-year aerospace engineering student was among a 1,000-strong crowd who attended a Ministerial Forum organised on Friday by Nanyang Technological University (NTU) Students’ Union.

Senior Minister Goh Chok Tong was the guest-of-honour.

During a dialogue session after SM Goh’s main address, Lim stood up and asked if the Minister was aware that many young people no longer felt a sense of ownership in Singapore.

“When I was younger, I was very proud of being a Singaporean,” said Lim.

“But that was about five, ten years ago. Five years later, with all the changes in policies and the influx of foreign talent, I really don’t know what I’m defending any more.”

He said this was a view that many of the men he served with during National Service also held.

“I feel that there is a dilution of the Singapore spirit in youth… We don’t really feel comfortable in our country any more,” he said.

Mr Goh replied, “‘This is one early sign of danger… If this is happening, it is very serious.” He went on to ask Mr Lim why he felt disconnected.

Mr Lim told SM Goh, ”‘I’m still serving as an officer and I definitely would love to defend Singapore.”

But he said the key difference between him and his foreign friends was, “I tell them, this is my country. I can’t just leave here whenever I want to. You can come and play and work here, but I have to stay here.”

SM Goh responded by defending the government’s policy of welcoming foreigners.

“You want to have a home. Who’s going to build your HDB flat?” said the Minister.

Lim replied that due to the inability to afford the sky-high public housing prices, his brother had to call off his engagement.

“My brother got engaged, but lost his engagement because he could not afford an HDB flat,” said Lim, who went on to state that his question was not about “integrating foreigners”.

“My question was, how are we going to help the younger generation feel a sense of belonging to Singapore? I don’t think it’s about integrating foreigners,” said Lim.

“This is your country,” SM Goh replied. “What do you want me to do to make you feel you belong?”

“For my part, don’t worry about me,” Mr Lim said. “I will definitely do something, if I can, for Singapore. But I can tell you honestly that the sentiment on the ground is a bit different.”

“If this is happening, it is very serious,” said SM Goh.

“If the majority feel they don’t belong here, then we have a fundamental problem. Then I would ask myself: What am I doing here? Why should I be working for people who don’t feel they belong over here?” asked SM Goh.

Earlier on during the dialogue session, the Minister made the point that the next General Elections, due to be held by February 2012, would be a “watershed” for the future of Singapore from which a “fourth Prime Minister and a core team of younger ministers will emerge”.

SM Goh also challenged the young undergrads in his audience to “make a difference to Singapore” by joining local politics.

This Lim definately have balls to challenge a SM. A potential candidate for the opposition party. I think he can be a politician.

 

[fotoudavid]

what will happen if we stop FT from coming here? No nurse, no construction worker, no cleaner, no maids.........

will we be as comfortable as we are now?

 

[zac08]

what will happen if we stop FT from coming here? No nurse, no construction worker, no cleaner, no maids.........

will we be as comfortable as we are now?

Dude... FT, not FW.

 

[fotoudavid]

Dude... FT, not FW.

sorry...........

too many short forms to remember.........

 

[Fave78]

what will happen if we stop FT from coming here? No nurse, no construction worker, no cleaner, no maids.........

will we be as comfortable as we are now?

what will happen if we stop FT from coming here? No nurse, no construction worker, no cleaner, no maids.........

will we be as comfortable as we are now?

yes i totally agreed:thumbsup:, we need them to do certain job etc. built our HDB flat, selling ban mian in food court, cleaning the plates etc. BUT, pls i repeat again.... do we really need them to take managerial posts (starbuck's/TCC/watson/ntuc etc supervisor?) or taking away skilled professional jobs, normal office clerk job from local born citizens?

Look at post #140 commebt by Pinoy, we locals can only blame ourself.

 

[happyfrog]

seems like everyone wants to be manager. wants good life.

keep the laborer, construction worker, maids, cleaners... but throw away all the higher ranking professional FTs.

seems to me in this forum, everybody wants to be the biggest fish in a small pond without ever venturing into the ocean. sooner or later, the resources in the small pond will be finished if that pool is not expanded.

yea, if singapore has become a big ocean, maybe those people who cant handle the bigger fishies can try to venture out to other smaller ponds, like Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.

 

[Leong23]

Many young Singaporean look too highly on themselves and setting unrealistic goal. It is time to wake up and start compete in the global market.

I work in construction industry for more than a decade, many youngster quit and change line not because of the pay, but they want to work in a more "high class" line.

They have no experience yet want high pay, high year end bonus but mind working long and odds hours. Ask them to for site inspection like asking them go to hell.

People from other countries willing to work without complaining because they want to provide a better life for their families..... Many Singaporean are just spoiled, they thought they still are papa or mama boy, waiting to be pampered.

The joke is many people thought I'm non-Singaporean because I'm willing to work on site. :bsmilie:

 

[commonjunks]

How about any job with salary > 3k company must advertise in news paper for 30 days and look for local (citizen first followed by PR) and if after 30 days cannot find a person with specific skill set then can hire FT (if i am not wrong similar criteria is applicable for US, at least in NY).
any take?
But i can't agree more on what Leong23 mentioned.

 

[Volks]

Before 30yrs old I made 101% effort contributing to the defence of my land.

Now my sentiment is ...If you watched Rambo 2 the last words from John Rambo, when questioned by his dear Colonel, 'What do you want ?', was ' I WANT MY COUNTRY TO LOVE ME, JUST AS MUCH AS I LOVED HIM !'

Get it ?

 

[bahibo]

Let me tell you what you will be defending:
You will defend your laziness, stupidity and illusion.

Let me tell you the future:
Singaporean who sit on their ass complaining, expecting the government to solve their problem will get pushed down to worker level or kicked out to oversea, and since they have high expectation, they want first world country, most likely aus, where they will be discriminated and beat up by bald head gang, will become mad and walk the street screaming "i am Singaporean lahhh,not china lahhhh, the government should help me lahhhh"

Meanwhile, in government office someone will look up to economic forecast data on the lcd and say:"I am glad we get FT to push out those lazy demanding fool, or the whole country will be full of people sit there complain and expect me who work my ass out to do something to support them"



I am famous for long winded, now i talk about how the hell FT really push Singaporean like Officer Lim out.

Firstly, let me state this loud and clear, FT earned the right to be Singaporean, much more than some Singaporean:

• They choose to be here.
  
  
• They work their way to earn the PR, they work, earn low salary, far from family, they learn new skill, they learn English, they learn how corporate in Singapore work, they pay tax, they suffer, they got discriminated...etc, that far much more sweat and blood than someone who born here, forced to serve NS and thought entitle to ask Gov to do this and that.
  
  
• Many of you are Foreign students in Aus, Uk, US, you guys know how hard it is to live and work in other people country, and if you want to live their even more difficult, you also suffer that your dear family is somewhere far away, FT pay those sweat and blood and pain to be here.
  
  
• They pay tax, and let me tell you, they actually pay more than Singaporean. What is tax ? Money you pay government for benefit government bring you. Those FT pay tax even before they become PR, and do they receive benefit as much as Singaporean ? They overpaid if we count what they receive compare to Singaporean.
  
  
• They may complain, but they work hard and contribute, more importantly, they learn to improve themselves to solve their own problem.

But why Singaporean (those lazy ass one) lose the fight:

-

• They complain, think their problem should be someone else problem and want other people to solve that for them, never ever ask themselves what can they do, how to improve themselves to solve.
  
  
• -They have many advantages but still lose, that said a lot about how lazy they are:
• ​
  Born here, know the culture, have social connection, have family support
• ​
  Gov support, education subsidized, local uni and employee actually have advantage when find job.
• ​
  Live in parent storeroom, do not need to live in 5 person/room style house with high rental.
  
  
  
• -You know those saying say to win you need know people and yourself, they do not know what their advantage, their strength, weakness, only care examine, judge others.
  
  
  
• -They want government to take out the "competitive" out of "economy" so the whole Singapore economy can die a lazy ass with them.
  
  
  
• They never really think they are the problem, i hardly see Singaporean student that see the Chinese student get 1st class respond the right way:
• ​
  Their respond: "how come always those PRC ahhhh, the school too many PRC already lahhhh, like that ahh,no chance for us to get high rank ahhh..."
• ​
  The PRC student respond (if they are SingapoRC): The foreign kid win in my home ground, lose face, lose face, i need to learn why he win, i need to learn more, i need to improve myself, i need study more instead play dota otherwise not only i lose, my country man lose face lahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
  
  
• -They always demand, oversell themselves. Those here who do recruitment consultant or HR should know Singaporean always more expensive, but hold your horse, when you say FT cheap, you mean they cheap compare to Singaporean or to the market standard ?
  
  
  
  
• Years in recruitment company you can see that Singaporean always overpriced, oversell.
  
  ​
  , Given their experience and skill level always demand a lot, and ask for high salary, but performance is one of the top lowest. I do not mind people ask for more if their performance and attitude, character is great, but look, interview all you ask is benefit and salary and leave and promotion, but your attitude suck, low performance than PRC, Indian, Vietnam, why i hire u.
  
  
  
• FT is not cheap, the cost go into the gov levy, training, longer processing time, integration..etc.

FT do not take job that Singaporean do not want, they also take all the job as long as Singaporean remain uncompetitive and sit there ask gov this and that. Even Gov increase levy, reduce FT number, you like that, still lost job, lost school position, lost everything, FT do not take it from you then life will take it from you, for those who do not fight for something do not deserve it. And the fight begin with your attitude, how can you grow if you assign the main reason for your problem is government policy.





:devil: Ask yourself, what similar between USA and Singapore ?
Both country the people is not native, the country is rather migration country where the majority is migration, most of you original from Fujian, Guangdong, Southern China or other part of the world, you guys ( i'm sorry, i dont mean CSer or Singaporean, i mean lazy ass Singaporean brats) are FT yourselves.


The point is not who are local, but the point is nobody is entitle to anything, FT the same with your grandparent, they choose a place, a country to make a living, to settle, and they fight for a place in that country, you look down on them, you forget you are equal or lower than them,not higher, you do not fight for a place yourself, life flush you out.

 

[aeskywan]

Let me tell you what you will be defending:
You will defend your laziness, stupidity and illusion.

Let me tell you the future:
Singaporean who sit on their ass complaining, expecting the government to solve their problem will get pushed down to worker level or kicked out to oversea, and since they have high expectation, they want first world country, most likely aus, where they will be discriminated and beat up by bald head gang, will become mad and walk the street screaming "i am Singaporean lahhh,not china lahhhh, the government should help me lahhhh"

Meanwhile, in government office someone will look up to economic forecast data on the lcd and say:"I am glad we get FT to push out those lazy demanding fool, or the whole country will be full of people sit there complain and expect me who work my ass out to do something to support them"



I am famous for long winded, now i talk about how the hell FT really push Singaporean like Officer Lim out.

Firstly, let me state this loud and clear, FT earned the right to be Singaporean, much more than some Singaporean:

• They choose to be here.
  
  
• They work their way to earn the PR, they work, earn low salary, far from family, they learn new skill, they learn English, they learn how corporate in Singapore work, they pay tax, they suffer, they got discriminated...etc, that far much more sweat and blood than someone who born here, forced to serve NS and thought entitle to ask Gov to do this and that.
  
  
• Many of you are Foreign students in Aus, Uk, US, you guys know how hard it is to live and work in other people country, and if you want to live their even more difficult, you also suffer that your dear family is somewhere far away, FT pay those sweat and blood and pain to be here.
  
  
• They pay tax, and let me tell you, they actually pay more than Singaporean. What is tax ? Money you pay government for benefit government bring you. Those FT pay tax even before they become PR, and do they receive benefit as much as Singaporean ? They overpaid if we count what they receive compare to Singaporean.
  
  
• They may complain, but they work hard and contribute, more importantly, they learn to improve themselves to solve their own problem.

But why Singaporean (those lazy ass one) lose the fight:

-

• They complain, think their problem should be someone else problem and want other people to solve that for them, never ever ask themselves what can they do, how to improve themselves to solve.
  
• -They have many advantages but still lose, that said a lot about how lazy they are:
• ​
  +Born here, know the culture, have social connection, have family support
• ​
  +Gov support, education subsidized, local uni and employee actually have advantage when find job.
• ​
  +Live in parent storeroom, do not need to live in 5 person/room style house with high rental.
  
• -You know those saying say to win you need know people and yourself, they do not know what their advantage, their strength, weakness, only care examine, judge others.
  
• -They want government to take out the "competitive" out of "economy" so the whole Singapore economy can die a lazy ass with them.
  
• They never really think they are the problem, i hardly see Singaporean student that see the Chinese student get 1st class respond the right way:
• ​
  + Their respond: "how come always those PRC ahhhh, the school too many PRC already lahhhh, like that ahh,no chance for us to get high rank ahhh..."
• ​
  + The PRC student respond (if they are SingapoRC): The foreign kid win in my home ground, lose face, lose face, i need to learn why he win, i need to learn more, i need to improve myself, i need study more instead play dota otherwise not only i lose, my country man lose face lahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
• -They always demand, oversell themselves. Those here who do recruitment consultant or HR should know Singaporean always more expensive, but hold your horse, when you say FT cheap, you mean they cheap compare to Singaporean or to the market standard ?
  
  
• Years in recruitment company you can see that Singaporean always overpriced, oversell.
  
  ​
  , given their experience and skill level always demand a lot, and ask for high salary, but performance is one of the top lowest. I do not mind people ask for more if their performance and attitude, character is great, but look, interview all you ask is benefit and salary and leave and promotion, but your attitude suck, low performance than PRC, Indian, Vietnam, why i hire u.
  
  
• FT is not cheap, the cost go into the gov levy, training, longer processing time, integration..etc.

FT do not take job that Singaporean do not want, they also take all the job as long as Singaporean remain uncompetitive and sit there ask gov this and that. Even Gov increase levy, reduce FT number, you like that, still lost job, lost school position, lost everything, FT do not take it from you then life will take it from you, for those who do not fight for something do not deserve it. And the fight begin with your attitude, how can you grow if you assign the main reason for your problem is government policy.




:devil: Ask yourself, what similar between USA and Singapore ?
Both country the people is not native, the country is rather migration country where the majority is migration, most of you original from Fujian, Guangdong, Southern China or other part of the world, you guys ( i'm sorry, i dont mean CSer or Singaporean, i mean lazy ass Singaporean brats) are FT yourselves.


The point is not who are local, but the point is nobody is entitle to anything, FT the same with your grandparent, they choose a place, a country to make a living, to settle, and they fight for a place in that country, you look down on them, you forget you are equal or lower than them,not higher, you do not fight for a place yourself, life flush you out.

Your argument holds no weight. unlike other countries Singapore PR is like free. There has been well documented cases of foreign uni students being offered PR before graduation. One PRC girl who went back to take part in her motherland's parade said she was given PR within months of working here. So many expats I know who are told by their HR to apply for PR, sure get one. Unlike other countries that make their PRs have a minimum occupancy... here anyone from a certain country can get PR.

 

[allenleonhart]

Many young Singaporean look too highly on themselves and setting unrealistic goal. It is time to wake up and start compete in the global market.

I work in construction industry for more than a decade, many youngster quit and change line not because of the pay, but they want to work in a more "high class" line.

They have no experience yet want high pay, high year end bonus but mind working long and odds hours. Ask them to for site inspection like asking them go to hell.

People from other countries willing to work without complaining because they want to provide a better life for their families..... Many Singaporean are just spoiled, they thought they still are papa or mama boy, waiting to be pampered.

The joke is many people thought I'm non-Singaporean because I'm willing to work on site. :bsmilie:

haha i worn in the renovation sector. shld be relatively close

 

[aeskywan]

How about any job with salary > 3k company must advertise in news paper for 30 days and look for local (citizen first followed by PR) and if after 30 days cannot find a person with specific skill set then can hire FT (if i am not wrong similar criteria is applicable for US, at least in NY).
any take?
But i can't agree more on what Leong23 mentioned.

I once received a job ad in job central for a local design firm. It says ONLY MALAYSIAN AND PR need apply....

 

[alantkh]

No I've never been to Astar but i work for a large MNC in the financial sector. I have hired people before and i don't look at nationality or asking pay (since not my money). I look for someone who has the right experience, perform well during the interview and that I feel I can work well with. More than half my department are FTs not because the hiring manager is biased but because locals are consistently out performed by FTs. 2 candidates one from NTU the other from Oxford both will be paid the same amount who will you hire? If due to a sense of patriotism I hire all locals that would mean my team won't be as strong as it could be. In the end I suffer.

Btw if you go for an interview and later find out that you lose out to a FT what is your immediate response? Will you blame everyone else or will you look at where you went wrong (could be **** up during interview, dressing got problem, salary expectation). Yes some managers will be biased towards their own country mates but not all the time. Maybe 5 out 10 times. But what I sense now is that when a local fails to get a job, 10 out of 10 times he will blame it on racism, cheap labor etc etc.....

Sigh, you totally missed my point. I have nothing against FT actually and I do feel that they are in general stronger than locals.

Then may I ask you why do a China Manager has more China FTs while an Indian Manager has more Indian FTs? This is very obvious in the research/academic field. If based solely on merit, shouldn't there not be a bias?

Is it all right if 5 out of 10 times a local loses his job due to the hiring Manager FT bias?

The culture of the research institutes are very bad in singapore I feel. When you bring up an institue and almost everyone inside is FT, what is the point in pumping our taxpayers money into them? Do you know Astar is so awashed with money that the mentality is "SPEND MORE else next year will get less funding"?

do you expect to make FT citizens? Where is the transfer of skills and knowlegde going to come from? How will it benefit our country 20 years down the road?

It is not always about who is better based solely on merit. If based soley on Merit, I would just hire 100% FT for research and development. But I think other considerations must come to play.

PS: It is very easy to assume those who are grumbling are "losers" who cannot compete with FTs, etc. Which is err not very nice.