How to use Leica M8/9's Base ISO 160 for Sunny 16 Rule?

[limwhow]

Hello everyone.

Both my wife and I are using the M9 & M9P, and we are very new to Rangefinders.
We are beginning to explore the wonderful world of manual metering and understandably, Sunny f16 Rule jumps right into the picture.
However, I have a question which I have done some searching.
But I still would like to ask everyone's opinion.

The Leica M8/9's Base ISO is 160.
I did a search and found that the ISO 160 of the M8 is equivalent to an actual ISO of 200.
Some websites actually reviewed that the M9's ISO sensitivity is slightly higher than M8.
So if that is the case, setting the M8/M9 at Base ISO of 160, my question is:

1. Can we treat this Base ISO of 160 more like ISO 200 and apply the Sunny f/16 Rule with some adjustment?
   
2. Or can we (like me, maybe ignorantly) treat this like ISO 100 and just apply the Sunny f/16 Rule straight away?

Of course, the most important thing is to view the final histogram and the end result.
But I would just like to find out, for those who use the Sunny f/16 rule and do manual metering, what is your view?
Do you tend to go with no.1 more or no. 2 more?

Thank you all for taking time to read my post and to offer me your advice.

 

[Yoricko]

The sunny 16 rule is only useful for photographers working with cameras without meters, or believes their meters are faulty. It is a last resort means to determine the appropriate camera exposure for a given scene.

It doesn't have to be 1/100th, ISO 100, f16 in unobstructed mid-day sunlight. All that matters is that you look at the sky/light source and determine the exposure based on your experience with certain scenes (cloudy, brightly lit indoors). For example, I always use 1/60th for dimly-lit malls, 1/90th for well-lit malls, 1/125th for malls with skylight, and 1/160th for supermarkets with Tri-X@320 and a f1.5 lens.

You have perfectly normal M9 with a function center-weighted meter, why bother?

Might as well spend the time to learn more about the rules of digital exposure and the zone system (although less applicable to digital files)

 

[NazgulKing]

I don't think the sunny 16 works well for digital which has tighter tolerances than film.

You are better applying what you learnt with a DSLR than with a film camera.

 

[catchlights]

on the sunny f16 rule, your shutter speed is equivalent to your ISO value, for an instant, cloudy f8, if you ISO is 160, so you use shutter speed of 1/160, if you want to use a higher or lower shutter speed, you need to adjust either aperture or ISO accordingly.

as for whether your ISO 160 is it truth 160, get a gray card and shoot a series of test, load the images in photoshop and check the RGB value.

hope this help.

 

[raytoei]

limwhow:

a. turn on the iso of your m9 or m8 to iso 200. and shoot at sunny 16 at 1/250.
b. actually, you have a digital camera, so you should use the in-built meter provided.
The only situation where you may want to meter differently would be:

a. Dark person on white background.
b. Light person on dark background.

which will fool the in-built and result in:

even darker person on gray background in a. and a even lighter person in b.

to solve this, simply meter the palm of your hand. this is a good approximate of a gray card.

(12% or 18% gray card doesn't really matter).

Once you get a good setting, then use the setting for the person and the background.

 

[artspraken]

From wad i know, sunny16 mainly for BW film which is more tolerant of human judgment/error.

Digital and color film need better metering.

On M9 just use A mode.

M9 white balance is poor. If u want room to improve u shld try using a grey card to manual set WB. M9 metering is fine

 

[aomoon]

my 2cents worth from M8 and may not directly to your question...but a reference :
i) WB on M8 is literally rubbish, which is why i only shoot DNG to adjust WB after shooting. (my workaround)
ii) Max tolerable darkness ISO setting for me is 640 ...afterwhich any post processing to brighten a dark scene is cannot make it.

Coming back to your question, to me you can either use (a) or (b) and just stick with it until you know the characteristic of your M9/P.
That's how I would approach it. Cheers

 

[newghost]

i sense the beginning of the analog journey...

 

[limwhow]

The sunny 16 rule is only useful for photographers working with cameras without meters, or believes their meters are faulty. It is a last resort means to determine the appropriate camera exposure for a given scene.

It doesn't have to be 1/100th, ISO 100, f16 in unobstructed mid-day sunlight. All that matters is that you look at the sky/light source and determine the exposure based on your experience with certain scenes (cloudy, brightly lit indoors). For example, I always use 1/60th for dimly-lit malls, 1/90th for well-lit malls, 1/125th for malls with skylight, and 1/160th for supermarkets with Tri-X@320 and a f1.5 lens.

You have perfectly normal M9 with a function center-weighted meter, why bother?

Might as well spend the time to learn more about the rules of digital exposure and the zone system (although less applicable to digital files)

Hello Yoricko,
Thank you for dropping in and giving me your views.
I echo your these thoughts about having certain setting based on our experience with certain scenes. I believe at the end of the day it would boil down to this. After playing around with our cameras for two weeks, we have possibly come to some conclusion on certain set pieces for certain type of lighting.
And your views in red - haha... that is very true. Really true. I have experimented with the metering of the M9, and I have found that under certain scenes the metering may be a little off. But of course, that could easily be compensated by adjusting the EV. I think, perhaps like some newbies to RF, I am re-learning photography from scratch. And thus, am starting to learn the basics of manual metering.
Thus my questions.

May I ask, Yoricko, what is your preferred settings on your RF? E.g. do you use Auto-ISO + Auto-Shutter mostly?
Thanks again, sincerely!

I don't think the sunny 16 works well for digital which has tighter tolerances than film.

You are better applying what you learnt with a DSLR than with a film camera.

NazgulKing, so far in all honesty, we have used the Sunny 16 under day time conditions to pretty accurate exposures.
For example, in bright sunny daylight, we would use Base ISO 160 + f/16 + 1/125 sec and chimped the histogram to find that the exposure adequate.
In slightly overcast sky and certain cloudy conditions, we have also come to realise that the above setting with the corresponding change in aperture to f/11 and/or f/8 to give pretty good exposures.
But of course, being so green in RF and manual metering, our experiences are limited to these only. Haha....
What is your usual setting, if I may ask, NagulKing, on your RF - do you depend on the auto-metering or do you do manual metering?
Thanks again!

 

[limwhow]

on the sunny f16 rule, your shutter speed is equivalent to your ISO value, for an instant, cloudy f8, if you ISO is 160, so you use shutter speed of 1/160, if you want to use a higher or lower shutter speed, you need to adjust either aperture or ISO accordingly.

as for whether your ISO 160 is it truth 160, get a gray card and shoot a series of test, load the images in photoshop and check the RGB value.

hope this help.

Ah.... this is a fantastic suggestion, catchlights!
Thank you thank you... Just that..., I am not that well versed in looking at the RGB values.
Let me think through your lines and try to understand a little more.
Thanks, catchlights. Thanks!

limwhow:

a. turn on the iso of your m9 or m8 to iso 200. and shoot at sunny 16 at 1/250.
b. actually, you have a digital camera, so you should use the in-built meter provided.
The only situation where you may want to meter differently would be:

a. Dark person on white background.
b. Light person on dark background.

which will fool the in-built and result in:

even darker person on gray background in a. and a even lighter person in b.

to solve this, simply meter the palm of your hand. this is a good approximate of a gray card.

(12% or 18% gray card doesn't really matter).

Once you get a good setting, then use the setting for the person and the background.

Hello raytoei,

Really appreciate your coming on board to give me your opinion.
You also suggested using the auto-metering of the camera.. !
Looks like I got to really drop my manual metering idea and go totally auto all the way liao.. wahaha...
Coming back to your these points, yes definitely agree with you. For when I played with the Auto-metering mode (either Auto-Shutter speed, Auto-ISO or both together), I find myself having to adjust the Exposure value depending on whether the foreground subject is back-lit or the other way round.

And for your this point on metering your own palm, do you make sure that your palm fills almost the whole picture? I am trying to imagine metering off my own palm... meaning even if the palm is not large enough to cover the whole picture, all I need to do is to make sure that my palm is exposed correctly.
Is that what we should be trying to do?
Does that mean that once we have a correctly metered and exposed palm, that would be middle grey?
I remember some time back, a very good friend of mine, an experienced RF shooter, ever told me that he and a few friends spent the whole afternoon talking about middle grey and what is middle grey. Well... looks like this is also an aspect that I need to go and read up about.

May I also ask you - do you use Auto-metering mode on your RF?
Thanks so much, raytoei!

 

[limwhow]

From wad i know, sunny16 mainly for BW film which is more tolerant of human judgment/error.

Digital and color film need better metering.

On M9 just use A mode.

M9 white balance is poor. If u want room to improve u shld try using a grey card to manual set WB. M9 metering is fine

artspraken, these are very reassuring points you have given me!
So you also advocate using A (Auto-shutter speed) on M9.
And yes, I have found that the WB seems not very consistent on the M9.
But glad to hear that the metering on this machine is fine.

So you also use Auto-shutter speed mode yourself?
And Auto-ISO too?
Thanks so much!

my 2cents worth from M8 and may not directly to your question...but a reference :
i) WB on M8 is literally rubbish, which is why i only shoot DNG to adjust WB after shooting. (my workaround)
ii) Max tolerable darkness ISO setting for me is 640 ...afterwhich any post processing to brighten a dark scene is cannot make it.

Coming back to your question, to me you can either use (a) or (b) and just stick with it until you know the characteristic of your M9/P.
That's how I would approach it. Cheers

aomoon, thank you for your points.
Good point on using post processing to adjust the WB. Yeah.. I also found myself doing a bit of this on PP.
I have used up to ISO 1250 on the M9 with acceptable (at least to me) results. ISO 1600 becomes really noise - unless I change it to black and white, then the noise becomes less obvious.

What is your setting? Do you use A too?

i sense the beginning of the analog journey...

newghost, hahaha... not long ago, I told myself and my friends that I will never do manual focusing because I am an AF person.
And I confidently told them I don't think I would play with rangefinders yet as I see myself too much as a DSLR person.
But now I am here. Hahaha...
Thus even though I really don't foresee myself ditching Digital for film, I now dare not commit too much to say that I won't... after having seen how I have switched over to RF. LOL...!

 

[Ttloong]

Hi Limwhow

I think you need this http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

I use sunny 16 on my M8 cos nowadays I don't like to make a dark scene bright and a bright scene dark. Hope it's help.

 

[limwhow]

Hi Limwhow

I think you need this http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

I use sunny 16 on my M8 cos nowadays I don't like to make a dark scene bright and a bright scene dark. Hope it's help.

Thank you very much for giving me the link, Ttloong!
This Fred Parker list is really one of the more detail account of the Exposure metering.
I have tried very hard to memorise it but I have found his list so detail that my lazy brain is not up to it... Haha...
Jokes aside, thanks so much once again.
Will try my best to commit them to memory as I embark on this journey of wonderful discovery.

 

[artspraken]

http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M9-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-11.html

Have a look at Thorsten Overgaards M9 "best practices". He shoots wide open with 50 cron, uses gray card for WB, lives in A mode, ISO200 for outdoors and ISO800 for indoors. When i use M9 i pretty much follow this.

A mode saves you valuable time metering when you spot an interesting subject on the street. That few seconds metering time that you save by using A mode, gives you a headstart prowling into position to jump the shot. Often when i manual meter, by the time i set the meter dial, the moment has gone. You get what i mean. A mode definitely is easier to use because it has a PnS element to it.

Manual metering is like driving manual car. To some people its more fun, more raw, more appealing. Its purely mechanical. No batteries needed.

To me, if your camera has A mode you should use it unless the sun is in your face.

If you want to manual meter, get a film body and try BW film. Its fun. I started with M9 and went backwards to use M3, M2, M4 and now ZI gives me the right balance i feel.

On M9 the autoISO varies in effect depending on your max ISO setting. I feel thorstens 2 ISO settings are enuf.

 

[rosewood1969]

i sense the beginning of the analog journey...

+1,perhaps an MP,lol!

 

[LKSC]

Thus even though I really don't foresee myself ditching Digital for film, I now dare not commit too much to say that I won't... after having seen how I have switched over to RF. LOL...!

If you would like to really understand metering, get a film body and shoot slides and take notes. At least a dozen or two dozen rolls. Don't scan them, look at them on a light table.
Slides are unforgiving, especially something like Velvia. They are closer than negs to digital sensors as they have narrow latitude have little to no shoulder in their highlight response.

 

[astroboy888]

i sense the beginning of the analog journey...

:angel::angel::angel:

 

[limwhow]

http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M9-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-11.html

Have a look at Thorsten Overgaards M9 "best practices". He shoots wide open with 50 cron, uses gray card for WB, lives in A mode, ISO200 for outdoors and ISO800 for indoors. When i use M9 i pretty much follow this.

A mode saves you valuable time metering when you spot an interesting subject on the street. That few seconds metering time that you save by using A mode, gives you a headstart prowling into position to jump the shot. Often when i manual meter, by the time i set the meter dial, the moment has gone. You get what i mean. A mode definitely is easier to use because it has a PnS element to it.

Manual metering is like driving manual car. To some people its more fun, more raw, more appealing. Its purely mechanical. No batteries needed.

To me, if your camera has A mode you should use it unless the sun is in your face.

If you want to manual meter, get a film body and try BW film. Its fun. I started with M9 and went backwards to use M3, M2, M4 and now ZI gives me the right balance i feel.

On M9 the autoISO varies in effect depending on your max ISO setting. I feel thorstens 2 ISO settings are enuf.

artspraken, now that's a great article you have linked me!
I will give this a good and detail run through late tonight after work.
I appreciate the way you say it here . It is an impetus for me to look at the A mode and start doing some serious shooting.
And about that M9 going back to M3, M2, M4 and ZI ... haha... I am not at that kind of level yet.
So that one may have to wait, or perhaps never? Haha.. I don't know.
Don't forget... I am a newbie.

 

[limwhow]

+1,perhaps an MP,lol!

Haha... not there yet, not there yet.

If you would like to really understand metering, get a film body and shoot slides and take notes. At least a dozen or two dozen rolls. Don't scan them, look at them on a light table.
Slides are unforgiving, especially something like Velvia. They are closer than negs to digital sensors as they have narrow latitude have little to no shoulder in their highlight response.

LKSC, that's what I have heard.
My goodness, that should be the ultimate yah, these slides...

:angel::angel::angel:

LOL...

 

[NazgulKing]

What is your usual setting, if I may ask, NagulKing, on your RF - do you depend on the auto-metering or do you do manual metering?
Thanks again!

I meter using my TTL meter on my Bessa. I generally compensate my exposure based on personal experience and also the effects I want to achieve.

Don't really use sunny 16 much. I have come to trust my Bessa meter a fair bit now, after shooting with it quite often.