Hobbes00 aka David-Police Case on the way

[alex31]

Hobbes00
Member Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 127
iTrader: 0/0%

Re: Photography/Videography Services and Camera Rentals

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Hi, I'm David, a media and video producer for the Army.
I'm only 20, but although I do not have 30 years of experience - I have what it takes to bring digital-video to a proffesional level making every single of my clients smiling for more.

Here is a short and simple introduction of what I do:
- Wedding coverage and videos


- Event coverage and videos
I've covered many church services, GRC event, talks, exhibition, fashion shows and clubs)

- Advertisment/Short-film
Script to screen. Finalist for 2 local film-festivals.

- Editing (DV)
With a shortfilm background, editing becomes and pleasure.

- Out-field Shoots
Like most typical guys, I like adventure and risk taking.
I've brought my camera to the frontline of military exercises, jungles and underwater.

I own and have access to a wide asernal of equipment needed to get the job done.
Namely the Canon XL-2, XL-H1, XH-A1, XH-G1 and the Panasonic DVX.

To conclude, I believe tailoring how much I charge to your needs and desires.
As low as $300, to as high as $3k.

I do NOT believe in making a high profit in any project - I make sure every dollar you pay goes into making the final product worth the bill.

This is my passion, this is what I do.
Regards.
David @ 94382788

Dear All forumer/viewers,

I have an agreement with David to videoshoot our event on 20th Jan 07 based on his advertisment in this forum. Almost a month after I have passed him the required poster/audio clips & credits, everything has not been done, not even the thriller that he has promised by last nite when I have made seriously complain on his committment to the project.

Although I do not have a good budget to work on with him, he has promised the following package from the correspondence email :

Hi Alex,

So just to confirm....

Videography Service

1) Coverage of the event on 20th January 2007 from 1200hrs to 1700hrs with 2 camera units.

2) Final Products:

- 2 min Video trailer - to be deliver ASAP.
- Archive DVD (1-2)
- 12 editted video - DVDs (with title printed & on surface of the disc )
- The videos are only subjected to ONE peruse to decide if there is a need for any amendments.

Payment:

1) First payment of S$200 (Cash) will be paid on the day itself (20th January 2007)

2) Remaining S$350 (Cash) will only be paid on the day the final products are delivered.

3) The total charges will be S$550 (Cash).

Feel free to contact me on my mobile if you have any queries.

Thanks and regards.

David
94382788
15 Greenridge Crescent
Singapore 598903

From the above details, all have not been done & have come to the conclusion that I will go to the police to get back my footage.

Although he proposed to pass me back the footage without refunding the $200, I do not agreed to it because of the agreement that was made.

I hope for those who has admired his work & talent, sorry that this has happened & see the other side of him.

For those who wish to engage his services, think three times.

His last sms:

"Hi, please bring it to the police. $250 was the cost of 2 cameraman for 4 hours. You want to cheat a young boy? I am NOT a professional, a pro will charge $500 per camera, not including editing. As I said, if you want your raw copy, please do not do anything foolish."

"I said, Bring the police. I am very interested to see how you wan do it. You threaten me even I agree to your agreements, good luck"

He has challenge me to made a police report & I will see to it. The point is not about money, but the fact he has agreed to this price & couldn't commit to it. I have to answer to my committee board so I have to come to this decision.

Police case is just one of the options that I will consider....Sleep tight David.




Alex

 

[BaconLettuceTomatoes]

Hi Alex,

First of all, I doubt you would want to involve the cops in this matter. I highly doubt this is a civil case that is worth their consideration. Afterall, David is not operating a business the the two of you filed any form of contractual agreement – Merely e-mails and other forms of correspondence that are neither officially recognized in a court of law nor valid as proof of agreement. Make no mistake about it gentlemen - There is NO agreement unless you have it signed, in writing, in an official contract. I can assure you that the Sargent will try his level best to hide his inner amusement at you bringing up a case of such insignificance and trivality to him. In fact, I just PMed him. My friend, considering you THREATENED HIM AND HIS FAMILY ever-so blatantly over the phone, I think you should be the one that would not want to make this into a police case. I doubt that will be looked upon too favorably by any authority.

Secondly, I don't see what your fuss is all about. He is still committed to doing your video but just lacks the time to do so. You have to consider that the chap is still in National Service and that he is charging you EXTREMELY cheaply. Have you ever considered the fact that he might have had to PAY to hire a secondary camera to cover your event? I strongly suspect his profit margins are tiny and he is hence placing this project on a back burner. And who can blame him? $500 for an event like this for that amount of coverage will easily cost you $1,000 to $2,000 from ANYONE – Professional or otherwise.

2) Final Products:

- 2 min Video trailer - to be deliver ASAP.
- Archive DVD (1-2)
- 12 editted video - DVDs (with title printed & on surface of the disc )

Furthermore, you flagrantly disregarded the fact that he did not state any date whatsoever that he is obliged to complete the project by. He merely states completion of the project 'ASAP'. Consider for a moment that you made him take almost TEN hours of footage from both cameras. If you think this is any walk in the park or that ten hours of footage can be edited within a month or two, you are sadly mistaken. I can assure you with complete finality that no one on earth will be able to edit in such a short amount of time. Moreover, 'ASAP' is a rather subjective term isn't it? What might constitute ASAP for someone might be 2 days to someone and 2 months to another. You cannot blame someone for not living up to your subjective definition and expectations of what ASAP means.

David
94382788
15 Greenridge Crescent
Singapore 598903

Lastly, you have also displayed his address and phone number rather prominently on this site – That could quintessentially be interpreted as a breach of privacy and client-operator confidentiality. You could get yourself in a hot spot there too – I'm half wondering David is not filing a suit with the Lower Courts over such dispositions. The point to this entire matter is that although David is indeed taking a rather lengthy time in producing this video, you are blowing this issue completely out of proportion. Proposing to send the police to his heels would only lend you, yes YOU into more hot soup than you can possibly imagine. Not only as a result of the both of you not agreeing upon a set date for the competition of the project, but also because you have threatened him rather vehemently over the phone and put his address up so poignantly on this thread – Acts which could potentially lead to even more worse problems; not for him, but for you instead.

My fair and unbaised suggestion on how to tackle this controversy would be to resolve this issue without involving a third party authority that would only lead to the detriment of both parties involved. I urge both of you to work out your differences in a civilized, objective, and gentlemanly manner and not resort to threats or forum postings in order to meet your aspirations. Soothe your anger, lick your bruised egos, and talk it over a nice hot cup of teh in order to settle it once and for all.

 

[AReality]

3) The total charges will be S$550 (Cash).

You already said it yourself, you didn't pay much.

And seems like you're missing out a few important information:
Was there any black & white, or email exchange?
When was the deadline?
What message did you SMS him? Did you threaten him first?

You're obviously being very biased, telling only your side of the story, and want the gullible ones to believe.

Be more forthcoming, else this will really be bad for your reputation.



.

 

[Hobbesyeo]

Afterall, David is not operating a business the the two of you filed any form of contractual agreement – Merely e-mails and other forms of correspondence that are neither officially recognized in a court of law nor valid as proof of agreement. Make no mistake about it gentlemen - There is NO agreement unless you have it signed, in writing, in an official contract.

Just for clarification: "Contracts can be oral or written - both have equal force and are legally binding. (reference)"

And as far as I know, emails are recognized like other types of written correspondance in court. Example: recent NKF court case, people being charged for sending false bomb threats via email etc.

So I think the statement is not accurate.

The rest of the dispute is open to debate.

Just a bystander's observation. I'm not involved in this dispute in any manner.

 

[compro_1975]

bext time, to protect both parties, i think a black-and-white agreement has to be reached. it is like the model release for example, which protected the photographer of his rights and the model.

wanna ask, why people these days just like to run away problems by telling others to report them either to the police or mod??? they dare to do but do not dare to face it.

 

[Chris Lim]

I think in this sense, since there is no specified date. Even a Contractual law suit will not suffice. HOWEVER, should this be brought up to the relevant authorities... It is a chargeable offense as the person involve is breaking the Army Code of conduct for MoonLighting.

Regardless of the amount paid, the law does state that when a party willing accepts payment from another party, he will be deemed as an employee and is automatically placed under the understanding that the product "in this case the Raw footage video" Is a property of the employer. And the employer has full rights in claiming the footage. Should the employee refuse to return the footage, this can be looked upon as theft and breach of contract as well depending on which area you are looking at it from.

From the statement "Hi, please bring it to the police. $250 was the cost of 2 cameraman for 4 hours. You want to cheat a young boy? I am NOT a professional, a pro will charge $500 per camera, not including editing. As I said, if you want your raw copy, please do not do anything foolish." The subject has rendered BnW ecidence of the decision to refuse ownership of the footage to the employer and have raised the stakes by threat as well. If matter is pursued, this can be accounted for as a criminal act already.








BUT with all said, Alex, my advise is. The Police can't do much. The most u get ur footage back and he might get charged by SAF. Thats it. If you are looking for further action done, its hardly even worth the fees to take this chap to court. So i'd advise both parties to settle it in a way that the footages are realeased back to the rightful owner and that the Fees due to be re negotiated.

 

[Chris Lim]

I think in this sense, since there is no specified date. Even a Contractual law suit will not suffice. HOWEVER, should this be brought up to the relevant authorities... It is a chargeable offense as the person involve is breaking the Army Code of conduct for MoonLighting.

Regardless of the amount paid, the law does state that when 1 party willingly accepts payment from another party, he will be deemed as an employee and is automatically placed under the understanding that the product "in this case the Raw footage video" Is a property of the employer. And the employer has full rights in claiming the footage. Should the employee refuse to return the footage, this can be looked upon as theft and breach of contract as well, depending on which area you are looking at it from.

From the statement "Hi, please bring it to the police. $250 was the cost of 2 cameraman for 4 hours. You want to cheat a young boy? I am NOT a professional, a pro will charge $500 per camera, not including editing. As I said, if you want your raw copy, please do not do anything foolish." The subject has rendered BnW ecidence of the decision to refuse ownership of the footage to the employer and have raised the stakes by threat as well. If matter is pursued, this can be accounted for as a criminal act already.








BUT with all said, Alex, my advise is. The Police can't do much. The most u get ur footage back and he might get charged by SAF. Thats it. If you are looking for further action done, its hardly even worth the fees to take this chap to court. So i'd advise both parties to settle it in a way that the footages are realeased back to the rightful owner and that the Fees due to be re negotiated.

 

[Chris Lim]

apologies for the double post. didnt realise i couldnt edit the post.

 

[Lost Water Studios]

Alex,

I heard about the minor issue in this thread and felt that i should possibly make my presence felt. I own a group of small established filming companies throughout a few countries and have introduced David into the professional world of filmmaking a few times. Continuing for him to create his own company 'FPS Productions' I currently live in Great Britain and travel wherever my job takes me. Luckily I'm one of those people who love my occupation.

I apologies if you feel David's work and cooperation is below satisfactory, and I;m sure if thats the case he is to. Although I feel i must let you know, out of the 7 years I have known him, I can honestly say you are the first real person who has seemed to have a problem with working with him.

I have worked with David on previous productions, from minor support at 'Railway Events' to bigger productions on Feature Foreign Films. He has always been involved in media from a young age, and I can easily say that he has never got in any sort of illegal activities in his filmmaking.

I was wondering if I could propose a question though. I was just wondering why you joined these forums just to post this statement? I noticed you only had two posts and they were from five hours ago. The reason I am here is because I feel some light needs to be shown on David's reliability and background

Though I'm wondering if you could tell me why? If you come back to these forums. Is it because you want to get some publicity and attention out of this matter - I would have just pursued with the police and not posted private details and accounts on an International Web site.

Like 'BaconLettuceTomatoes' said, It's not a very good idea posting someone's personal details. Especially if you want to pursue someone to court. Off this I'm wondering if BaconLettuceTomatoes, you could remove the quote from your post also for the same reasons you listed.

I hope yourself and David can come to some clear, positive end to this minor ordeal. If not and this case does go ahead, eventually pursuing to court. As well as any other actions you mentioned you might take. I would have to travel out and testify alongside David in his defense. Although I would very much not like to do this. I feel actions are often not the way to resolve these sort of situations.

If you would like to resolve this problem, voice your own side of the story more personally, or chat in general. You may feel free to do so by e-mailing me via my 'Club SNAP Photography Forums' profile.

In the mean time, good day, and good luck in resolving this matter.
Kieran Sam

 

[wazzup]

Pay peanuts lor... hahaha.

SONG bo?

 

[MalcolmOng]

My understanding of this matter is that since there was no date stipulated, like BLT and Chris have pointed out, he can take as long as he needs to deliver the final product. Like aforementioned, ASAP is an extremely subjective term, and in a good contract, empirical dates need to be set. You also admitted that you weren't paying him much to do his job - Can you really expect someone to give his best for such a meagre sum? If you had paid him his normal rate, he would definitely have snapped to the challenge, and delivered as fast as he could.

My opinion on this matter, after reading through what you've presented is that you would have a very weak case should you take it to the police, or the courts. The most you could prosecute him for would be an apparent refusal to return the footage i quote:

"Hi, please bring it to the police. $250 was the cost of 2 cameraman for 4 hours. You want to cheat a young boy? I am NOT a professional, a pro will charge $500 per camera, not including editing. As I said, if you want your raw copy, please do not do anything foolish."

However i doubt you specifically asked for the raw footage back. So my advice: Settle it amongst yourselves, and draft up a new contract, agreeable by both parties (although this current contract which both parties agreed to has been shot to hell), and set some hard dates before you do any talking.

 

[jnet6]

Pay peanuts lor... hahaha.

SONG bo?

:sweat: :sweat: :sweat:

 

[jOhO]

sore loser...

even if indeed u have been mis-treated and sub-standard service rendered to u, ur post is disgusting.

esp the last line where u "threatened" him or at least that wat it comes across as.

"sleep tight"? geez, the last time i heard that was after great sex and snuggling up next to a significant her falling asleep....

 

[gryphon]

Hi Lost Water Studios, I dun intend to add fuel to this thread.
I believe this is not the 1st time that David has upset a client. The following link I believe, is refering to him too.
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=253963

alex31, its really blowing out of proportion by going to the police. You paid peanuts (not the NKF brand peanuts) to someone who is in NS, which to me... NS when can you ever be sure you wun get extra duties, guard duties etc that suddenly disrrupts everything.

David is a young immature boy, whose works maybe excellent, but really needs to work on growing up and learning how to communicate with people. With the kinds of replies I have seen in both threads, anyone will be pissed enough to go to the police.
With recommendations from reputable person, no doubt he can go far, but he really needs to work on his attitude and communication.

 

[gryphon]

"sleep tight"? geez, the last time i heard that was after great sex and snuggling up next to a significant her falling asleep....

*OT mode on*
hope you will be hearing more of that soon ;p
*OT mode off*

 

[compro_1975]

Alex,

I heard about the minor issue in this thread and felt that i should possibly make my presence felt. I own a group of small established filming companies throughout a few countries and have introduced David into the professional world of filmmaking a few times. Continuing for him to create his own company 'FPS Productions' I currently live in Great Britain and travel wherever my job takes me. Luckily I'm one of those people who love my occupation.

I apologies if you feel David's work and cooperation is below satisfactory, and I;m sure if thats the case he is to. Although I feel i must let you know, out of the 7 years I have known him, I can honestly say you are the first real person who has seemed to have a problem with working with him.

I have worked with David on previous productions, from minor support at 'Railway Events' to bigger productions on Feature Foreign Films. He has always been involved in media from a young age, and I can easily say that he has never got in any sort of illegal activities in his filmmaking.

I was wondering if I could propose a question though. I was just wondering why you joined these forums just to post this statement? I noticed you only had two posts and they were from five hours ago. The reason I am here is because I feel some light needs to be shown on David's reliability and background

Though I'm wondering if you could tell me why? If you come back to these forums. Is it because you want to get some publicity and attention out of this matter - I would have just pursued with the police and not posted private details and accounts on an International Web site.

Like 'BaconLettuceTomatoes' said, It's not a very good idea posting someone's personal details. Especially if you want to pursue someone to court. Off this I'm wondering if BaconLettuceTomatoes, you could remove the quote from your post also for the same reasons you listed.

I hope yourself and David can come to some clear, positive end to this minor ordeal. If not and this case does go ahead, eventually pursuing to court. As well as any other actions you mentioned you might take. I would have to travel out and testify alongside David in his defense. Although I would very much not like to do this. I feel actions are often not the way to resolve these sort of situations.

If you would like to resolve this problem, voice your own side of the story more personally, or chat in general. You may feel free to do so by e-mailing me via my 'Club SNAP Photography Forums' profile.

In the mean time, good day, and good luck in resolving this matter.
Kieran Sam

sorry but i want to ask, since TS claim that David is just 20 years old, and you knew him for 7 years, David started at a age of 13? wow, that sound similar to me, would what to know how he went that far at a young age....

TS, so how is it going on?

 

[jOhO]

*OT mode on*
hope you will be hearing more of that soon ;p
*OT mode off*

ahaha.. always seeking the unseekable.. :bsmilie: :bsmilie:

 

[Chris Lim]

Alex,

I heard about the minor issue in this thread and felt that i should possibly make my presence felt. I own a group of small established filming companies throughout a few countries and have introduced David into the professional world of filmmaking a few times. Continuing for him to create his own company 'FPS Productions' I currently live in Great Britain and travel wherever my job takes me. Luckily I'm one of those people who love my occupation.

I apologies if you feel David's work and cooperation is below satisfactory, and I;m sure if thats the case he is to. Although I feel i must let you know, out of the 7 years I have known him, I can honestly say you are the first real person who has seemed to have a problem with working with him.

I have worked with David on previous productions, from minor support at 'Railway Events' to bigger productions on Feature Foreign Films. He has always been involved in media from a young age, and I can easily say that he has never got in any sort of illegal activities in his filmmaking.

I was wondering if I could propose a question though. I was just wondering why you joined these forums just to post this statement? I noticed you only had two posts and they were from five hours ago. The reason I am here is because I feel some light needs to be shown on David's reliability and background

Though I'm wondering if you could tell me why? If you come back to these forums. Is it because you want to get some publicity and attention out of this matter - I would have just pursued with the police and not posted private details and accounts on an International Web site.

Like 'BaconLettuceTomatoes' said, It's not a very good idea posting someone's personal details. Especially if you want to pursue someone to court. Off this I'm wondering if BaconLettuceTomatoes, you could remove the quote from your post also for the same reasons you listed.

I hope yourself and David can come to some clear, positive end to this minor ordeal. If not and this case does go ahead, eventually pursuing to court. As well as any other actions you mentioned you might take. I would have to travel out and testify alongside David in his defense. Although I would very much not like to do this. I feel actions are often not the way to resolve these sort of situations.

If you would like to resolve this problem, voice your own side of the story more personally, or chat in general. You may feel free to do so by e-mailing me via my 'Club SNAP Photography Forums' profile.

In the mean time, good day, and good luck in resolving this matter.
Kieran Sam

Being in the same field. I think having the experience is one thing. But there is no doubt that in the two cases mentioned. Professional ethis is lacking. And that may be an area that needs to be bucked up.

 

[mega32]

I feel that this is the case of looking for cheap service and getting cheap service.:bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie:

There are threads in this forum where people look for cheap service trying to get the better of the photographer or in this case videographer who will be willing to do the job for peanuts.

Now this thread can be a warning to all those cheapo coming to the forum to look for cheapo service.:nono:

As the saying goes "You Pay Peanuts ; You Get Monkeys"

No offence , just my thoughts.

 

[wazzup]

SONG boh? :bsmilie: