hi and buying a new camera, d70, 300d...or...

[mpenza]

Just to point out:

We can MOUNT MF lenses. Which means we can SHOOT WITH MF lenses. Metering is not an issue, as there are external meters, and also the human eye. There is no aperture limitation on a manual lens, you set it with the aperture ring.

Some systems, due to the change of standard between MF and AF lenses, cannot mount MF lenses on AF bodies, losing a legacy of MANY optically wonderful lenses.

Two points:
1. The flexibility to use MR lenses is probably important only for those with an existing collection of legacy lenses
2. Canon MF lenses also could be mounted on EOS cameras via adaptors (though it's not cheap). so, there's no losing of a legacy of MANY optically wonderful lenses with Canon.

 

[Ansel]

In fact, I have quite a lot of collection of Nikon product. I don't mind selling my 300D and change it to D70 but after I learn that (maybe the info I have is not enough) D70 can only take Nikon flash like SB600 and SB800. What am I going to do with my SB24, SB28 and SB30? Sell them away and get another new ones? My hobby is taking photo not buy buy buy camera. Don't have some much money to spend. :cry: :sweat:
Well, even Canon 300D has its own limitation too. As long I am happy with what I have until now. I will still using it.

Dear ghost,

I am not a flash person, so I'll let someone else comment on that, but the lens part is very close to my heart so I'll have to chip in my 2 cents here.

You can mount an AI or AIS manual lens on the D70 and take a picture. This essentially allows you to use lenses that were made from the late 70s up to today. No, there is no metering. Yes, you can select the shutter speed on the camera body and the aperture on the lens and take a picture.

But no metering how? I thought this was a big problem until I got to play with leonzhu's D100. I mounted a manual lens (55mm f2.8 micro) on his D100, aga-aga and set the shutter speed and aperture, take a shot and voila, my "agatation" was quite good and the LCD gave instant feedback on my exposure condition. The histogram was a great help. If the exposure is over or under, I just adjust and do a reshoot until I got it right.

Trust me, the process is very intuitive and is faster than you can read this paragraph. You essentially have a built-in "polaroid" camera that can give you instant feed back and the tests are free! You don't even need an exposure meter! This occasion absolutely convinced me to "go digital" because I love my manual lenses and I have resisted all this while because I thought, like you, the D70 (D100 for me at that time) cannot use manual lenses. Yes, it works and it works beautifully. :thumbsup:

OK, anybody want to talk about the flash part?

 

[leonzhu]

Two points:
1. The flexibility to use MR lenses is probably important only for those with an existing collection of legacy lenses
2. Canon MF lenses also could be mounted on EOS cameras via adaptors (though it's not cheap). so, there's no losing of a legacy of MANY optically wonderful lenses with Canon.

mpenza, i do agree, but the availability of legacy Nikkors is still quite high. Besides, we don't need adaptors :blah: also, Nikon still manufactures MF lenses. So it's not just legacy, it's current.

 

[mpenza]

mpenza, i do agree, but the availability of legacy Nikkors is still quite high. Besides, we don't need adaptors :blah: also, Nikon still manufactures MF lenses. So it's not just legacy, it's current.

so the main advantage is savings on an adaptor (vs the original pt of losing the use of many optically good FD lenses) ;p also, like legacy Nikkors, there're many FD lenses in 2nd hand shops.

 

[AJ23]

mpenza, i do agree, but the availability of legacy Nikkors is still quite high. Besides, we don't need adaptors :blah: also, Nikon still manufactures MF lenses. So it's not just legacy, it's current.

To add on, with adapters, it will be no metering at all and manual focus IIRC.

Also, with some pro bodies, there's even metering with old old old MF lenses. :blah: :blah: :blah:

 

[mpenza]

To add on, with adapters, it will be no metering at all and manual focus IIRC.

Also, with some pro bodies, there's even metering with old old old MF lenses. :blah: :blah: :blah:

erm.... not true. there's metering with some FD-EOS adaptors (aperture priority):
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/canon/fdresources/fdlenses/fdeos.htm

but there's some limitations (and not so straight forward compared to Nikkors):
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-manual-lenses/#canonfd

conclusion, if you have FD lenses, it might not be worth the trouble to get adaptor. if you have MF Nikkors, you have two choices: either Nikon or Canon AF SLRs ;p

 

[swimcraze]

A photographer went to a socialite party in New York. As he entered the front door, the host said "I love your pictures - they're wonderful; you must have a fantastic camera." He said nothing until dinner was finished, then: "That was a wonderful dinner; you must have a terrific stove." - Sam Haskins

hilarious :bsmilie:

totally agree :thumbsup:

 

[engwai]

In another half a year or so, Canon going to launch a 300DMKII/10DMKII which will leapfrog over the D70.

is it canon is going to launch 300DMKII?

 

[photogene]

Hi,

If u are into sports/action type of photos, then Nikon D70 is recommended. Overall, I'll still recommend D70 for its rich features. Also, I heard D70 is cheaper in US too compared to 300D.

 

[leonzhu]

so the main advantage is savings on an adaptor (vs the original pt of losing the use of many optically good FD lenses) ;p also, like legacy Nikkors, there're many FD lenses in 2nd hand shops.

mpenza,

the point i'm trying to make is this:
with Nikon, because they are concerned about BACKWARD and FORWARD compatibility, you will not end up with lenses that are difficult, if not impossible, to use with other bodies of the SAME BRAND.

i take the EF-S kit lens as an example. What other camera can you use this on?
FD lenses as well. can you mount it on your 1DMkII?

I shall take the MF 55mm f2.8 Micro-Nikkor. I can mount this lens on the Nikon F, F2, FM2, F3, F4, F5, F55, F60, F65, F70, F75, F80, F90, F90x, F100, F60x series. Also, I can mount it on the D2H, D1H, D1X, D1, D100 and D70. Of course, not all functions will be available on all bodies, but the lens can be used.

On the other hand, Let's take the AF-S VR 24-120mm IF-ED. One of the lenses incorporating almost all the modern technologies Nikon has to offer. I can use it on the D2H, on the D100, on the F100, F5..... And almost every other body. As above, not all functions will be available on all bodies, but the lens can be mounted.

I rest my case.

 

[gadrian]

nikon lens system takes a bit of research.

perhaps you can get the nikon users to post a list of nikkor lenses that work FULLY with the D70 and not in some stopped down metering mode

THis is my test..

D70 & D100 - no stop down metering.. These are the lenses that can be mounted and used. All without metering unless indicated. (Btw. Also compatible with D1, D1x, D1h, D2h)

8mm f8
12mm f3.5
15mm f3.5
18mm f3.5
20mm f2.8
24mm f2.8
28mm f2
28mm f2.8
35mm f1.4
35mm f2
45mm f2.8 - with metering coz this is a CPU lens
50mm f1.2
50mm f1.4
50mm f1.8
85mm f1.4
105mm f1.8
105mm f2.5
135mm f2
135mm f2.8
180mm f2.8 ED
200mm f2 IF-ED
300mm f2.8 IF-ED
400mm f2.8 IF-ED
400mm f3.5 IF-ED
500mm f4P IF- ED - with metering coz this is a CPU lens
600mm f5.6 IF-EF
500mm Reflex f8
100mm Reflex f11
28-85mm f3.5-4.5
35-70mm f3.3-4.5
35-105mm f3.5-4.5
35-200mm f3.5-4.5
70-210mm f4.5-5.6
PC 28mm f3.5
Micro 55mm f2.8
Micro 105mm f2.8
Micro 200 f4 IF
TC-201
TC-301
ALL AI-P Nikkor lenses

Hmm that about covers most of the lenses..

Btw.. this are the list of Nikon's currently available still in production Manual lenses..

And Btw.. I am actually looking at the D70, D100, D2H, D1x, D1h and D1 brochures at the moment.

 

[mpenza]

mpenza,

the point i'm trying to make is this:
with Nikon, because they are concerned about BACKWARD and FORWARD compatibility, you will not end up with lenses that are difficult, if not impossible, to use with other bodies of the SAME BRAND.

i take the EF-S kit lens as an example. What other camera can you use this on?
FD lenses as well. can you mount it on your 1DMkII?

I shall take the MF 55mm f2.8 Micro-Nikkor. I can mount this lens on the Nikon F, F2, FM2, F3, F4, F5, F55, F60, F65, F70, F75, F80, F90, F90x, F100, F60x series. Also, I can mount it on the D2H, D1H, D1X, D1, D100 and D70. Of course, not all functions will be available on all bodies, but the lens can be used.

On the other hand, Let's take the AF-S VR 24-120mm IF-ED. One of the lenses incorporating almost all the modern technologies Nikon has to offer. I can use it on the D2H, on the D100, on the F100, F5..... And almost every other body. As above, not all functions will be available on all bodies, but the lens can be mounted.

I rest my case.

I never disagree with this. What Nikon has done is good for Nikon users with an arsenal of Nikon MF lenses (perhaps you could also say Canon has done even better, with their EOS bodies supporting Nikon MF lenses and many other MF lenses from Contax, Pentax, etc, other than good support for their own ;p).

But for new Nikon users, does it matter? Does it matter for newbies to SLR that do not have any lenses? Is it so important for new Nikon users and SLR newbies for a AF camera to support MF lenses that were produced in the past 30 years and are still in production now? Is this important to kilago the thread starter?

EF-S might be a once off thing. What's the big deal about it? Nikon DX lenses could be mounted on all Nikon film bodies and vignet at low zoom range. Is this a sense of forward and backward compatibility to come in the future?

There're times when changes are needed (e.g. SB80DX, Nikon previous top-range flash for digital cameras, is "obseleted - dTTL no longer supported" with the introduction of D2H and D70). From my biref understanding, there's some deficiencies in the FD mount and Canon had to change in order to move ahead. It's a bold decision to make and it was made. The Canon pros then were supported via a lens adaptor that allowed them to use FD lenses on EOS bodies.

 

[gadrian]

OK, anybody want to talk about the flash part?

D70+D100


SB24 - A mode - been there done that - ok exposure
SB26 - A mode - been there done that - excellent exposure
SB27 - A mode - been there done that - so so exposure
SB28 - A mode - been there done that - excellent exposure
SB28DX- A mode - been there done that - excellent exposure
SB29s - A mode - been there done that - good exposure
SB50DX - A mode - been there done that - excellent exposure
SB80DX - A mode - been there done that - excellent exposure
SB800 - i-TTL - been there done that - excellent exposure even with CLS up to 6 flashes tested
SB600 - waiting to test..

 

[gadrian]

But for new Nikon users, does it matter? Does it matter for newbies to SLR that do not have any lenses? Is it so important for new Nikon users and SLR newbies for a AF camera to support MF lenses that were produced in the past 30 years and are still in production now? Is this important to kilago the thread starter?

It is a very important thing that has kept me in the Nikon system - consistency, peace of mind that knowing that even my old 1965 50mm f1.2 is still usable on my current D100. Albeit no metering.. but then again.. I dont even have metering my FM2.. battery died never replaced..

 

[gadrian]

..perhaps you could also say Canon has done even better, with their EOS bodies supporting Nikon MF lenses and many other MF lenses from Contax, Pentax, etc, other than good support for their own ;p).

Is Canon glass itself not good enough that they need to use other manufacturers glass? hmm.. a point to ponder..

Did you know that Canon first early rangefinders.. used Nikon glass too..

 

[leonzhu]

I never disagree with this. What Nikon has done is good for Nikon users with an arsenal of Nikon MF lenses (perhaps you could also say Canon has done even better, with their EOS bodies supporting Nikon MF lenses and many other MF lenses from Contax, Pentax, etc, other than good support for their own ;p).

But for new Nikon users, does it matter? Does it matter for newbies to SLR that do not have any lenses? Is it so important for new Nikon users and SLR newbies for a AF camera to support MF lenses that were produced in the past 30 years and are still in production now? Is this important to kilago the thread starter?

Mount converters: what makes you think similar converters for the F-mount aren't available? Canon didn't do it, neither did Nikon. Credit does not go to them.

Does it NOT matter? Like many wise persons have advised: "It is not just about the camera body, it is also about the lenses you are given access to."

Just a note, I'm 19 years old. I'm barely old enough to know about the "Legacy" Nikon bodies and lenses. And yet, to me, the knowledge that, in 2004, they still give me the ability to mount a lens from 1965, is comforting. That means a lens i buy today might be usable on a more modern body up to 10 years from now, or 40, maybe? THAT IS THE POINT THAT CONCERNS THE NEWBIE WHO HAS NO LENS SYSTEM YET. would buy something that costs so much if you know that in 10 years you won't be able to use it anymore? it's all an investment, and Nikon has made the investments of people like gadrian and Ansel worthwhile, even after 40 years.

 

[mpenza]

It is a very important thing that has kept me in the Nikon system - consistency, peace of mind that knowing that even my old 1965 50mm f1.2 is still usable on my current D100. Albeit no metering.. but then again.. I dont even have metering my FM2.. battery died never replaced..

Are you the minority or the majority? Most of us never had an SLR before. If this was such an important factor, Nikon would have monopoly of the whole camera market. Canon would have been killed off by its users and close shop.

Just a note, I'm 19 years old. I'm barely old enough to know about the "Legacy" Nikon bodies and lenses. And yet, to me, the knowledge that, in 2004, they still give me the ability to mount a lens from 1965, is comforting. That means a lens i buy today might be usable on a more modern body up to 10 years from now, or 40, maybe? THAT IS THE POINT THAT CONCERNS THE NEWBIE WHO HAS NO LENS SYSTEM YET. would buy something that costs so much if you know that in 10 years you won't be able to use it anymore? it's all an investment, and Nikon has made the investments of people like gadrian and Ansel worthwhile, even after 40 years.

was this a very important factor that influenced the your choice before you buy a Nikon system or an afterthought? Many SLR users do not have more than a couple of lens. Is support of old lenses going to be that important? Perhaps, you're aiming for the pros or lens collectors. Then, I'll leave it to them to answer ;p I'm coming from the angle of a amateur/advanced amateur which probably makes up the majority of SLR users and who may not have many lenses.

I'm a camera user. The brand doesn't matter. I'll go with whatever is the best tools that meet my budget and requirements. Anyway, if I want to invest, I'll buy the shares of the companies and use the shares to hedge against future prices of equipment.

 

[jOhO]

mpenza,

the point i'm trying to make is this:
with Nikon, because they are concerned about BACKWARD and FORWARD compatibility, you will not end up with lenses that are difficult, if not impossible, to use with other bodies of the SAME BRAND.

i take the EF-S kit lens as an example. What other camera can you use this on?
FD lenses as well. can you mount it on your 1DMkII?

I shall take the MF 55mm f2.8 Micro-Nikkor. I can mount this lens on the Nikon F, F2, FM2, F3, F4, F5, F55, F60, F65, F70, F75, F80, F90, F90x, F100, F60x series. Also, I can mount it on the D2H, D1H, D1X, D1, D100 and D70. Of course, not all functions will be available on all bodies, but the lens can be used.

On the other hand, Let's take the AF-S VR 24-120mm IF-ED. One of the lenses incorporating almost all the modern technologies Nikon has to offer. I can use it on the D2H, on the D100, on the F100, F5..... And almost every other body. As above, not all functions will be available on all bodies, but the lens can be mounted.

I rest my case.

eh brudder... u forgot s2 and s1pro!! hmpfff~~

 

[gadrian]

Are you the minority or the majority? Most of us never had an SLR before. If this was such an important factor, Nikon would have monopoly of the whole camera market. Canon would have been killed off by its users and close shop.

Majority. Now.. lets see it this way.

I have not said that Canon lenses are inferior to Nikons.. in many ways.. Canon's ability to incorporate it IS and USM in a majority of its pro lenses is a great one step forward. And is one of the reasons why many pro's and they companies choose Canon. In many sense it is a corporate decision. Where ROI is concerned.

I have to also admit.. it was Nikon's laid back attitude that they were resting on their laurels that they didnt pull ahead of Canon. Nikon has had many of its technologies sitting on the shelves in its R&D labs that we see in to days new Nikon lenses for ages.. again Nikon's lack of foresight has help it loose a huge chunk of the pro market.. I grant you this..

But again on far sightedness.. lets go to the year 1988, when the Nikon F4 was launched.. about 16 years ago.

What can the F4 do today.. if can use AF-S lense - introduce in 1996, if can use G-lenses - granted on P&S mode - introduce 2001, it can use certain DX -lenses - 12-24 at 18mm onwards in P&S mode - introduced 2001. This is what I call technology built in foresight.. and yet.. it didnt loose it loyalty to its originals.. all AI, AI-S and AI-P lenses remain usable.. albeit with metering...

Do you know that Nikon could with some engineering make the D100/D70 do metering my adding the manual metering coupling ring to the lens mount?

But again.. marketing.. they want to push new technology.. so lets just cut that out.. and see what happens..

But nonetheless.. I think the F4 is a mark of engineering.. and with such in mind.. you can see the same in Nikon D1, D1x, D1h and D2h.. they do listen and cater to their users..

 

[mpenza]

eh brudder... u forgot s2 and s1pro!! hmpfff~~

Kodak too! They have quite a few DSLRs that use F mount.