Has ClubSNAP become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?
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wonder if CS can play its part in helping local photographers (hobbyist, working photogs, budding photogs & potential 1s) directly or indirectly.
like stating in print certain terms Do's & Don'ts, threads w/ rediculous terms will b outright closed (hopefully)? i mean CS is an online community wad, "photography community" should encourage positive community spirit right?
we're here to "share knowledge, discuss idea, forge new friendship with others who hav a similiar passion and interest in photography". of cos we do trade in Consumers Corner & Buy & Sell forum, but dun abuse them lar.;(
like stating in print certain terms Do's & Don'ts, threads w/ rediculous terms will b outright closed (hopefully)? i mean CS is an online community wad, "photography community" should encourage positive community spirit right?
we're here to "share knowledge, discuss idea, forge new friendship with others who hav a similiar passion and interest in photography".
of cos we do trade in Consumers Corner & Buy & Sell forum, but dun abuse them lar.;(The digital revolution of photography brought with it several after-shocks as I'd come to realise now...
- Easier access to photography for all
- Cheaper equipment
- Bastardisation of artistic standards
The last point p3wns every single benefit that the digital revolution brought about.
What do we hear nowadays? Ppl say this whenever they see great photos... "Wah! Nice photo... Wad camera u use har?" (and after dat comes equipment wanking) Ppl used to stop at the words "Nice Photos".
With digital cameras so cheap now, dun say abt enthusiasts getting DSLRs, even absolute noobs who think that SLR = Pro = Instant perfect pictures are getting one without a single idea how to use their cameras and using [P]rofessional mode & shooting without thinking & understanding even after eons of using one.
How many times u hear ppl say, "Eh? Shoot wrongly ah? Eh! Reshoot lah! Digital! No need film!" or how abt, "Eh! Wait, wait, wait. I take 1 more photo juz in case the 1st one take wrongly."
I used to hold this mentality taking 2 of all photos until recently when I realised (both frm my shifu & myself) that "A Moment comes once. There is no reshoot. Even for group photos, regardless of the medium."
No 2 group photos are similar even with continuous burst mode on. Its either u get it right once or u do not get it at all. Digital or film alike.
For newbies who happen to pop in here & have the bad habit of shooting everything twice cos "just in case the other one take salah", tell ya, even if u're shooting 100 times, if its awful the first time, it'll be awful for the remaining 99 times as well.
- Easier access to photography for all
- Cheaper equipment
- Bastardisation of artistic standards
The last point p3wns every single benefit that the digital revolution brought about.
What do we hear nowadays? Ppl say this whenever they see great photos... "Wah! Nice photo... Wad camera u use har?" (and after dat comes equipment wanking) Ppl used to stop at the words "Nice Photos".
With digital cameras so cheap now, dun say abt enthusiasts getting DSLRs, even absolute noobs who think that SLR = Pro = Instant perfect pictures are getting one without a single idea how to use their cameras and using [P]rofessional mode & shooting without thinking & understanding even after eons of using one.
How many times u hear ppl say, "Eh? Shoot wrongly ah? Eh! Reshoot lah! Digital! No need film!" or how abt, "Eh! Wait, wait, wait. I take 1 more photo juz in case the 1st one take wrongly."
I used to hold this mentality taking 2 of all photos until recently when I realised (both frm my shifu & myself) that "A Moment comes once. There is no reshoot. Even for group photos, regardless of the medium."
No 2 group photos are similar even with continuous burst mode on. Its either u get it right once or u do not get it at all. Digital or film alike.
For newbies who happen to pop in here & have the bad habit of shooting everything twice cos "just in case the other one take salah", tell ya, even if u're shooting 100 times, if its awful the first time, it'll be awful for the remaining 99 times as well.
LazerLordz
New Member
Slammer said:
I come from the school of thought that constructive criticism is a form of assistance to the fresh and raw recruits to the world of picture making.
Just don't slag the newbies off based on your own assumptions and it should be hunky-dory.
Joining date: Jul 2005LazerLordz said:I come from the school of thought that constructive criticism is a form of assistance to the fresh and raw recruits to the world of picture making.
Just don't slag the newbies off based on your own assumptions and it should be hunky-dory.
Posts: 10
Nick: Slammer
U smell something?
LittleWolf
New Member
jsbn said:
Hardly. Film-based photography has been extremely accessible for many decades. The upfront cost to get started has increased with digital.
This is highly debatable. For example, digital pictures are much easier to share online. Naturally, a lot of junk that would have been gracefully stowed away in boxes and forgotten in the film days now gets exposed to the wider public.
It's also difficult to judge on matters of taste. Especially when people hide themselves behind the word "artistic".
Winders/motors and exposure bracketing originated in the film world as features desired by professionals.
I can think of a few occasions where people blinked during the first exposure, but not the second.
Slammer said:
i think u may hav misinterpret ler, i guess he's refering 2 d atitude of some photographers. likely pointing out their "it doesn't matter if i slip-up atitude" cos w/ a digital cam little cost is incurred every time a mistake is made.
its not d skill, its a atitude towards photography. :think:
I feel that cheap service is in demand now. If you dont cut down how to fight? I myself do web site designs for people. But prices from me, are chasing customers away. Why? Just because there are too much supply and little demand.
Price value will drop lor....but must remember a point, those getting highly paid for job done are ahead of your skills and experience and even large business network. To fight and gain that share, you got to pay around with price to get something or else how you survive?
If you think you are good enough, without links....good luck. With low price = more business.
Nothing is Big, Round, Juicy and Cheap lah......:nono:
Price value will drop lor....but must remember a point, those getting highly paid for job done are ahead of your skills and experience and even large business network. To fight and gain that share, you got to pay around with price to get something or else how you survive?
If you think you are good enough, without links....good luck. With low price = more business.
Nothing is Big, Round, Juicy and Cheap lah......:nono:
jnet6
Senior Member
I do agreed on that,but 一分钱一分货.Fluorite said:
but then did u ever ask yrself this question, my investment on cam/pc/advertising etc...
all this $$ payout will come back if i charge lower?( if yr equpiment used is top of the range)
Do u want to degrade yrself and the equipment that u used?(only those who owned top of the range equipment will understand)
I think the way the market is going, one day photographers have to beg camera makers to give free cameras, or maybe ad sponsored cameras, which superimpose paid advertisements on each photo taken.
Like you snap a photo of an orange, and there would be a logo of Cold Storage, or Carrefour. Snap a picture of a married couple, and there would be an ad for Ikea, Lee Hwa or a law firm.
Customers are spoilt for choice, it's difficult for the photographers. Maybe photographers have to get a full-time job to survive. ie Taxi driver cum photographer.
Like you snap a photo of an orange, and there would be a logo of Cold Storage, or Carrefour. Snap a picture of a married couple, and there would be an ad for Ikea, Lee Hwa or a law firm.
Customers are spoilt for choice, it's difficult for the photographers. Maybe photographers have to get a full-time job to survive. ie Taxi driver cum photographer.
Just dun tell IRAS.chris wong
New Member
I my friend told me in person that there are ppl willing to do his AD for $180.00,with or without print he don't say...I don't even dare to ask more after that...
(He don't take the $180.00 offer)
(He don't take the $180.00 offer)
pointblankshots
Senior Member
First time in this thread... So Hi All...Happy New Year..
Somewhat very true that perhaps this forum has enabled the public to gain on cheap photography... Good Photographers don't come cheap? I don't exactly beg to differ on this, but would also agree that Expensive photographers doesn't come good too...
As a matter of fact, many would agree with me that if you need to make big bucks, then certainly photography is not one illustrious career. This career certainly packs in tight deadlines, creativity sometimes, 'zerox' photography included...
For the many who may be wanting a chance to craft out a name for oneself, the sad way to go in Singapore is sometimes, having to go free, or cheap in our instances... That 'unndercutting' is not wrong. We would all take it as a form of healthy competition...
After many years in the job, I've come to believe that there is no competitions really... First, we have the big names photography in Singapore, who've been doing good images so very often... Their clients would be so stuck by them, supporting them.. No amount of undercut would prise a path for incoming photographers eyeing on it... So, in short, no competitions...
Then, we have the group of studios who worked very closely with their clientele. and would do shoots, not just the amount of amount which is low sometimes, rather the coming back in the wee hours to service our clients.. The value added services that this group provides is beyond par to describe... No short, no undercut methods would work too, but these clientele would be very comfortable with their photographers...So again, almost no competitions....
Third, we have editorials fashion pages, like SPH's magazine etc etc... All magazines have a fixed rate on outsource photographers... For example, irregardless who you are, you'll be paid XXX amount of money for half day, or full day... It's fixed, no quotation needed... If big names is getting perhaps $300 half a day(yes, it's true), my question is, would it make a difference if you try telling this potential client that you can shoot for free? Come on, $300 half a day is already cheap, and with this mediocre amount of money, the publishing house can get a trustworthy, deliverable studio to do this. So, why would they try a newbie? They would pay $300 half a day to be certainly safe... So again, almost no competitions...
However, this is one route that could still be open for newcomers, only when you portfolio is ready, and I'm not talking about bikini babes looking happy shiny, or girl in cheongsams looking good.... There has to be a commercial value in one's photography... Do not enter the industry and show your stuff when your work is not ready... All you get is people laughing behind your back when you don't even know. Now, it's good to visit www.weekhim.com and get a rough idea of what good could be about... Many do not like this name, but this man has certainly been through hell and back to achieve a status like today.... Yet, he's not the best, they're better ones...
So, when you're serious into photography like many of us perhaps, and would like to make it your living, then do everything to be an artist... In time to come, somebody would give you a chance...
Commercial/ Advertising Photographers are not freelancers, and has definitely no time to hold on to another full time job... Other than knowing how to shoot, he/ she knows all possible shooting locations in Singapore.. For example, a 'Lord of the Rings' full of greeneries and mountains in Singapore, he would know where it is, or perhaps a measuring tape without a logo and measurements only in inches.... to make it worst, to deliver a piece of work with almost impossible timeline, but yet make it meet....
Freelance Wedding or event photographers, well, we can argue that they could hold on to a full time job, but think again.. They're people devoted to shoot this form of work and are priced competitively(not cheap, just average and deliverable). They know exactly where and when to stand to get a good frame when you're running around like a headless chicken looking for an angle... In short, those holding on to full time jobs and yet doing this form of photography and complaining day in and out about people undercutting... Look, sometimes, it starts with you....
How much is one photographer willing to give for a passion or put a signature on his works solely depends on how much effort one is willing to put in... Don't put in mediocre works and expects to gain credits or money earned... There's no short cuts, only hard and smart work....
If you wanna be a photographer commercially, then be one whole heartedly to start... Some point in time, you would realised there's no competitions....
Somewhat very true that perhaps this forum has enabled the public to gain on cheap photography... Good Photographers don't come cheap? I don't exactly beg to differ on this, but would also agree that Expensive photographers doesn't come good too...
As a matter of fact, many would agree with me that if you need to make big bucks, then certainly photography is not one illustrious career. This career certainly packs in tight deadlines, creativity sometimes, 'zerox' photography included...
For the many who may be wanting a chance to craft out a name for oneself, the sad way to go in Singapore is sometimes, having to go free, or cheap in our instances... That 'unndercutting' is not wrong. We would all take it as a form of healthy competition...
After many years in the job, I've come to believe that there is no competitions really... First, we have the big names photography in Singapore, who've been doing good images so very often... Their clients would be so stuck by them, supporting them.. No amount of undercut would prise a path for incoming photographers eyeing on it... So, in short, no competitions...
Then, we have the group of studios who worked very closely with their clientele. and would do shoots, not just the amount of amount which is low sometimes, rather the coming back in the wee hours to service our clients.. The value added services that this group provides is beyond par to describe... No short, no undercut methods would work too, but these clientele would be very comfortable with their photographers...So again, almost no competitions....
Third, we have editorials fashion pages, like SPH's magazine etc etc... All magazines have a fixed rate on outsource photographers... For example, irregardless who you are, you'll be paid XXX amount of money for half day, or full day... It's fixed, no quotation needed... If big names is getting perhaps $300 half a day(yes, it's true), my question is, would it make a difference if you try telling this potential client that you can shoot for free? Come on, $300 half a day is already cheap, and with this mediocre amount of money, the publishing house can get a trustworthy, deliverable studio to do this. So, why would they try a newbie? They would pay $300 half a day to be certainly safe... So again, almost no competitions...
However, this is one route that could still be open for newcomers, only when you portfolio is ready, and I'm not talking about bikini babes looking happy shiny, or girl in cheongsams looking good.... There has to be a commercial value in one's photography... Do not enter the industry and show your stuff when your work is not ready... All you get is people laughing behind your back when you don't even know. Now, it's good to visit www.weekhim.com and get a rough idea of what good could be about... Many do not like this name, but this man has certainly been through hell and back to achieve a status like today.... Yet, he's not the best, they're better ones...
So, when you're serious into photography like many of us perhaps, and would like to make it your living, then do everything to be an artist... In time to come, somebody would give you a chance...
Commercial/ Advertising Photographers are not freelancers, and has definitely no time to hold on to another full time job... Other than knowing how to shoot, he/ she knows all possible shooting locations in Singapore.. For example, a 'Lord of the Rings' full of greeneries and mountains in Singapore, he would know where it is, or perhaps a measuring tape without a logo and measurements only in inches.... to make it worst, to deliver a piece of work with almost impossible timeline, but yet make it meet....
Freelance Wedding or event photographers, well, we can argue that they could hold on to a full time job, but think again.. They're people devoted to shoot this form of work and are priced competitively(not cheap, just average and deliverable). They know exactly where and when to stand to get a good frame when you're running around like a headless chicken looking for an angle... In short, those holding on to full time jobs and yet doing this form of photography and complaining day in and out about people undercutting... Look, sometimes, it starts with you....
How much is one photographer willing to give for a passion or put a signature on his works solely depends on how much effort one is willing to put in... Don't put in mediocre works and expects to gain credits or money earned... There's no short cuts, only hard and smart work....
If you wanna be a photographer commercially, then be one whole heartedly to start... Some point in time, you would realised there's no competitions....
PBS, well said bro. (BTW welcome back haven't seen ya here for a looong time!)
I guess it really depends on the genre of photography. Most of the guys here I guess are talking abt wedding photography and yup it's kinda true that there are couples out there who are just looking for cheap deals (ie cheap wedding photographers). But I've also seen couples who don't care and really go for expensive photo packages. I guess that's what you mean when there's "no competition" for these guys. Nevertheless I think in wedding photography the chances of meeting these 'price-inelastic' or non-price sensitive customers is quite a challenge nowadays. (Just what I feel though there's no hard 'statistics' to justify what I say).
So I guess it's really the kind of genre of photography you do. The wedding photography market has a different set of customers with different risk appetites, budget, values, etc from the clientele in the commercial advertorial photography or even fashion editorial photography. So nope I don't agree CS has become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers for all kinds of genre of photography.
I guess it really depends on the genre of photography. Most of the guys here I guess are talking abt wedding photography and yup it's kinda true that there are couples out there who are just looking for cheap deals (ie cheap wedding photographers). But I've also seen couples who don't care and really go for expensive photo packages. I guess that's what you mean when there's "no competition" for these guys. Nevertheless I think in wedding photography the chances of meeting these 'price-inelastic' or non-price sensitive customers is quite a challenge nowadays. (Just what I feel though there's no hard 'statistics' to justify what I say).
So I guess it's really the kind of genre of photography you do. The wedding photography market has a different set of customers with different risk appetites, budget, values, etc from the clientele in the commercial advertorial photography or even fashion editorial photography. So nope I don't agree CS has become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers for all kinds of genre of photography.
Belle&Sebastain
Senior Member
pointblankshots said:
well said bro,:thumbsup: how very true.
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