Xandorous said:You didn't post a picture of the back.....
Edited: changed pic...previous one too big
More info here.....
http://www.dpnow.com/1844.html
http://www.dpnow.com/1842.html
big screen.:bigeyes:
FZ30 Preview & Samples
- Thread starter wkwek
- Start date
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big screen.:bigeyes:
AncientMariner said:I was not referring to you comparing with a prime lens but your choice of comparing the top of the line range of Canon lens with all the exotic features of IS, USM, L thrown in. Many Canon owners don't own one of these and the FZ30 does not have anything equivalent to USM.
I do believe you have overlooked the differences that make for better image reproduction from a dSLR e.g.
a) Sensor size - 23.5 x 15.7 mm on the KM 5D vs 7.176 x 5.319 FZ30 (> 9.6 times)
b) Iso range - 100 - 3200 on the KM5D vs 80-400 on the FZ30
c) Interchangebility - Whilst the FZ 30 has a fixed zoom lens, DSLRs not only have interchangeable lenses by a host of 3rd party manufacturers to choose from.
There is no need to jump right to the top of the range lenses or even use the mfr's lens with an entry level model.
Since you ask, with $2000, I could probably get a KM 5D (based on US$799), a Sigma 24-70 and a Sigma APO 70-300 Super List prices shown:
http://sigma-marketing.com.sg/shop/default.php?cPath=20&osCsid=4348cb9f3477071f8745abc723507b93
Also, for info:
http://www.tamron.com/lenses/default.asp
http://www.thkphoto.com/products/tokina/tokina-04.html
Though changing lenses on a dSLR is a matter of pressing a button and a twist compared to having to turn a dozen times to attach a WA or teleconverter, those who want a wide range walkaround lens might consider a KM 5D with a Sigma compact hyperzoom 28-300 aspherical lens.
I have lenses covering 19mm up to 400mm focal length for my SLR. Combining a SLR and a dSLR, I would have a range of 19 -600mm, far wider than the FZ30 even with WA and Teleconverters combined in addition to a host of other features especially faster autofocus, predictive focus, (exposure) zone matching and less noisy pictures with less CA, fringing etc.
The ability to build the range by picking up bargain lenses at my leisure is what I like about d/SLRs. Most important since the lenses can be used with new "body" models released, one only has to upgrade the body if one likes the new features available. Not so with the FZ.
Maybe you can tell me how to expand the focal length range of my FZ10 as well?
Whilst you are at it, pls tell me how to get the F1.7 aperture I have for my 50mm prime for the FZ too? Since many are also having problem with low light shots, I am sure others here will thank you as well
Xandorous,
My reason for finding the Pana site comparing the size of the FZ30 to a dSLR with a 400 mm fixed focal lens being wrong is that the FZ30 is using a zoom lens with focal length from ard 7 -88mm. Also, they are ignoring the fact the dSLRs have interchangeable lens feature i.e. you can attach just the lens you need. The KM 5D with the 24-300 hyperzoom wd be a fairer comparison. In addition, if one were to consider weight alone one could use lighter lenses such as 50mm f1.7 (or 1.8).
Perhaps it is just "advertising" on the part of Panasonic, but to blindly reproduce it when you having using a SLR, know otherwise justifies questioning your motives. The least one can say is that "you think too highly of the product".
Aiyo...being Prosumer or SLR/DSLR, each got its use lar...
More importantly is that if you are good, you will take good photos...if someone else is not as good as you, even if you were to give them top of the range 4,000mm f2.8 VR or 4,000mm f2.8 IS lens, the photo will not come out as fantastic right?
Relax lar...writing does not reflect emotion very well, if needs to, let's organize a conference call...Eeerrrrmmmmm...I mean....a discussion....(too many conference calls till I blur blur...)
jimjim said:
With the super-duper zoom (420mm), if there is no anti-shake, a slight movement you made with your camera will make the photos that you are taking blur...so, you will need to almost using tripod all the time, hence, it will be better to glue the camera to the tripod.
Now it seems to make sense to you the bundle, right?
Yup, you are right!!!JimDavis said:With the super-duper zoom (420mm), if there is no anti-shake, a slight movement you made with your camera will make the photos that you are taking blur...so, you will need to almost using tripod all the time, hence, it will be better to glue the camera to the tripod.
Now it seems to make sense to you the bundle, right?
Great Explanation!!:bsmilie:
lightning69
New Member
Xandorous said:If any of you guys are still interested in the FZ30 but holding back because of the noise issue, Neat Image, Noise Ninja or the new Photoshop CS2 with a new noise-removal function may help. Ya, I know, the best is still low noise level straight out from the camera. This is only a suggestion. So here's a couple of samples.
Original image here http://img2.dpreview.com/gallery/panasonicfz30_preview/originals/p1000077.jpg
Original image here http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/lumix/popup/gallery/models/fz30/P1010423.JPG
I fully agree that programs such as Noise Ninja, Neat Image ...blah balh blah can reduce noise effectively. But one must not forget that the fine details of the photo are also lost during the process. Now some might argue that the loss is minimal but that really depends on the photo that went through the process. A photo with a lot of fine details will suufer greating in details and sharpness. That is why i don't realy like to use them.
lightning69
New Member
The noise argument has been very much talk about and the are many views regarding this issue. Some don't really care about it because they can use noise reduction programs to reduce or eliminate them. Others say the noise won't really appear in 4R prints so its a non issue. And then there are some who really cannot live with them. I fall on the last category and i will explain why i hated noise so much.
I have been using the FZ20 for more than 6 months now. I bought it because of the rave reviews over the internet. I love it at first but one thing that always disappoints me is the noise. Before my little girl Sabrina was born I shoot mainly outdoors picture such as scenery and sunset. Outdoors picture turn out great but there is always ths "noise" thing that plague my photos even at the lowest ISO80. It happens in those even colors areas such as blue skies. Is that really a big problem?
Yes it is very annoying. Applying noise reduction does help, but I notice that it removes a lot of fine details too. Some might argue that it is very minimal but that really depends on the photo. A photo with a lot of fine details will turn out poorly as very much of the details is removed by the noise reduction software. Some people might not care because they are not really particular about those fine details, but i do. That is why I don't really like the NR software & I think it is not a solution to cure noise from a digicam.
Now there is another group who would say that noise rarely appear in 4R prints. That is very true to certain extend. The FZ20 can print noise free 4R up to ISO200, but at ISO 400 the noise is so bad that there really is no cure. So if you are only printing 4R then the FZ20 is fine and so is every other digicam. In fact any 3Mp digicam can do the job. But how many of you print all your photos or even print half of it. I have shot more than 5000 pictures now and have printes less than a hundred photo which is only less than 5%.Maybe that is just me, but i think that is the whole purpose of the digital cam where you choose to print only the best and keep the rest in your PC. So most of my photos are view in my PC as screen savers. That is where noise becomes a huge problem again. On my large 17" Dell Ultrasharp LCD, noise just spoil the photo. So it really depends on how you view your photos that determines whether noise is a factor or not.
Besides that noise can be a huge problem in digital photo. If you were to apply unsharp mask to sharpen your photo, noise will be a big problem as it will be amplify during the process.
My experience tell me that all p&s digicam is only good for outdoor use where light is plentiful. When the light is not enough such as indoor and night photography, they become allmost useless. This is because most p&s uses small CCD resulting in very high noise at higher ISO. Last week i brought my cam to shoot Miss Tourism 2005 where there are 30 beauties from all over the world. Only a third of the picture cam out sharp. The rest were blur. Maybe its my skill but i will explain to you why its not. The FZ20 has a dummy hotshoe so i attach an external flash and set it to max power. I choose to use ISO 100 because I can't stand the noise at higher ISO(that was a big mistake). Most of the models were 30 to 50 feet away. When i examine my photo i notice that the speed is mostly at 1/30 sec which is too slow. That is why most of the photo appears blurry not because of camera shake but because the model was moving around the stage and 1/30 is just not fast enough to freeze them. what if i have a Dslr that allow me to use higher sensitivity such as ISO400 or even ISO800 without noise issue?
I took a lot photo of my baby girl Sabrina at home. The same problem arise. Yes i could solve it with flash but i really don't like flash because of the hash washout look. I would prefer higher ISO without flash vs flash with lower ISO, but that is not possible with the FZ20.
IMHO, i will not go for another fix lens digicam whether it is FZ30 of any other brand. Go dslr if you can because it offers me 3 things that I consider the most important for any users and that is:
1. super fast focus - you will appreciate this features once you are shooting moving subject like children etc.
2. zero shutter lag - ever feel the frustration when you press the shutter and thought you have got a good shot to realise that the subject has already moved.
3. low noise at high sensitivity - giving you the posibilty to shoot at higher speed when you need it most.
I have been using the FZ20 for more than 6 months now. I bought it because of the rave reviews over the internet. I love it at first but one thing that always disappoints me is the noise. Before my little girl Sabrina was born I shoot mainly outdoors picture such as scenery and sunset. Outdoors picture turn out great but there is always ths "noise" thing that plague my photos even at the lowest ISO80. It happens in those even colors areas such as blue skies. Is that really a big problem?
Yes it is very annoying. Applying noise reduction does help, but I notice that it removes a lot of fine details too. Some might argue that it is very minimal but that really depends on the photo. A photo with a lot of fine details will turn out poorly as very much of the details is removed by the noise reduction software. Some people might not care because they are not really particular about those fine details, but i do. That is why I don't really like the NR software & I think it is not a solution to cure noise from a digicam.
Now there is another group who would say that noise rarely appear in 4R prints. That is very true to certain extend. The FZ20 can print noise free 4R up to ISO200, but at ISO 400 the noise is so bad that there really is no cure. So if you are only printing 4R then the FZ20 is fine and so is every other digicam. In fact any 3Mp digicam can do the job. But how many of you print all your photos or even print half of it. I have shot more than 5000 pictures now and have printes less than a hundred photo which is only less than 5%.Maybe that is just me, but i think that is the whole purpose of the digital cam where you choose to print only the best and keep the rest in your PC. So most of my photos are view in my PC as screen savers. That is where noise becomes a huge problem again. On my large 17" Dell Ultrasharp LCD, noise just spoil the photo. So it really depends on how you view your photos that determines whether noise is a factor or not.
Besides that noise can be a huge problem in digital photo. If you were to apply unsharp mask to sharpen your photo, noise will be a big problem as it will be amplify during the process.
My experience tell me that all p&s digicam is only good for outdoor use where light is plentiful. When the light is not enough such as indoor and night photography, they become allmost useless. This is because most p&s uses small CCD resulting in very high noise at higher ISO. Last week i brought my cam to shoot Miss Tourism 2005 where there are 30 beauties from all over the world. Only a third of the picture cam out sharp. The rest were blur. Maybe its my skill but i will explain to you why its not. The FZ20 has a dummy hotshoe so i attach an external flash and set it to max power. I choose to use ISO 100 because I can't stand the noise at higher ISO(that was a big mistake). Most of the models were 30 to 50 feet away. When i examine my photo i notice that the speed is mostly at 1/30 sec which is too slow. That is why most of the photo appears blurry not because of camera shake but because the model was moving around the stage and 1/30 is just not fast enough to freeze them. what if i have a Dslr that allow me to use higher sensitivity such as ISO400 or even ISO800 without noise issue?
I took a lot photo of my baby girl Sabrina at home. The same problem arise. Yes i could solve it with flash but i really don't like flash because of the hash washout look. I would prefer higher ISO without flash vs flash with lower ISO, but that is not possible with the FZ20.
IMHO, i will not go for another fix lens digicam whether it is FZ30 of any other brand. Go dslr if you can because it offers me 3 things that I consider the most important for any users and that is:
1. super fast focus - you will appreciate this features once you are shooting moving subject like children etc.
2. zero shutter lag - ever feel the frustration when you press the shutter and thought you have got a good shot to realise that the subject has already moved.
3. low noise at high sensitivity - giving you the posibilty to shoot at higher speed when you need it most.
lightning69 said:
I feel your pain ... and also share the same sentiments about flash.
I can only agree on point 2, I realised how important is this after shooting on a lousy LC5. Shuttle lag should not have been there period.
1. super fast focus ... coming from OM4, I've missed out on the AF SLR era. Because I choose to. We see everything in 3D and that how we can train ourselves to lock focus, but to demand that in AF is really a technical achievement.
3. I don't understand the ISO in the digital environment. In film we use higher ASA film which results in more grain, but grains can be beauty. I can't say the same for noise.
lightning69 said:
Hmmm...:think: would it help if you use shutter priority? I used to shoot birds using the FZ10 with external flash in the bird park aviary. If you've been there, you'll know it's quite dark there. What I've done is to switch to Shutter Priority at 1/125 at ISO50. Since the lighting is definitely not enough, the cam will automatically open the aperture to F2.8. So effectively, I'm shooting at 1/125 and F2.8. This technique seems ok with me, and my LCD remains bright enough to see.
lightning69 said:
In my personal experience (shooting a two year old daughter at home), the DSLR is certainly the best choice PROVIDED your len is bright enough. With my 18-70mm kit lens at f4.5, my shutter speed is usually 1/30 even at ISO800. At this shutter speed, it's kinda hard at time to prevent motion blur too...:sweat:
AncientMariner said:
You said Panasonic's comparison of a DSLR with a 400 mm fixed focal lens is a wrong. Doesn't the FZ30 have a 420 mm equivalent tele? So is your example of the KM 5D with a 50mm a better comparison? You talked about interchangeable lens and that's exactly why people bought prosumer cameras and that's exactly what prosumer users do not want....lugging around equipments! And I can tell you several other features that prosumer users love in their camera that a DSLR doesn't have? But like you care, right? Well, you see (if it hasn't cross your mind) you have your own opinion other people have theirs. Have you not read my earlier post about the two groups of people; first group who prefers an all-in-one prosumer and the other group that loves to lug kilos of equipments around? These are two different groups of camera users with usually two different usage and possibly two different opinions too. Actually, I have never compared apples and oranges. I don't know why in the first place you want to compare cameras in two totally different classes??!!? Go read from the beginning...or if you want to, read ALL my post in clubsnap, I have never started comparing two different classes of cameras before!
Btw, just bought my Canon 350D during lunch time! You know what? I think very highly of this one!!! In fact, too highly!!! But if you want my opinion on the FZ30, Here it is for the very first time, from the specs so far, it is still one of the better 8MP prosumer (don't get mixed up with DSLR again ok! I repeat prosumer) and that's my opinion!
This is getting a little tiring. I think we should just enjoy our cameras! Be it P&S, Prosumer or DSLR!
Breathe in..... breathe out.... Breathe in.... breathe out...
Now think happy thoughts...:bsmilie:
The world is too beautiful a place to waste time being unhappy about such issues. Each of you have very valid points and all make perfect sense from your perspective, so smile, let it go and go take photos with your whatever camera.
The best photo wins... :devil:
Now think happy thoughts...:bsmilie:
The world is too beautiful a place to waste time being unhappy about such issues. Each of you have very valid points and all make perfect sense from your perspective, so smile, let it go and go take photos with your whatever camera.
The best photo wins... :devil:
Hi lightning69,
If you read my earlier post, NR software is just a suggestion for people who die-die must get the FZ30.
As for the noise level, all of us P&S and Prosumer users will either have to live with it or NR the photos. Unlike you, I prefer to loose that bit of details for a smoother photo. I usually print at 4R which seems fine to me almost all the time. But if you print at larger sizes frequently, yes, I agree with you that the prints can be quite disappointing.
But when you mentioned that noise in blue sky is noticeable, do you mean view on your screen or on print? My Fuji S5000 is noisy too in blue sky on screen but it is hardly noticeable in 4R print. In fact, most of the time, slightly noisy pics like this (not low light high ISO type) are fine when printed on 4R.
In any case, I think you should look into buying a DSLR. Buy the 350D I think very very highly of this one!!!! And I'm fondling it with my other hand now!!! Wohoo!
If you read my earlier post, NR software is just a suggestion for people who die-die must get the FZ30.
As for the noise level, all of us P&S and Prosumer users will either have to live with it or NR the photos. Unlike you, I prefer to loose that bit of details for a smoother photo. I usually print at 4R which seems fine to me almost all the time. But if you print at larger sizes frequently, yes, I agree with you that the prints can be quite disappointing.
But when you mentioned that noise in blue sky is noticeable, do you mean view on your screen or on print? My Fuji S5000 is noisy too in blue sky on screen but it is hardly noticeable in 4R print.
In fact, most of the time, slightly noisy pics like this (not low light high ISO type) are fine when printed on 4R.In any case, I think you should look into buying a DSLR. Buy the 350D I think very very highly of this one!!!! And I'm fondling it with my other hand now!!! Wohoo!
AncientMariner said:I was not referring to you comparing with a prime lens but your choice of comparing the top of the line range of Canon lens with all the exotic features of IS, USM, L thrown in. Many Canon owners don't own one of these and the FZ30 does not have anything equivalent to USM.
I do believe you have overlooked the differences that make for better image reproduction from a dSLR e.g.
a) Sensor size - 23.5 x 15.7 mm on the KM 5D vs 7.176 x 5.319 FZ30 (> 9.6 times)
b) Iso range - 100 - 3200 on the KM5D vs 80-400 on the FZ30
c) Interchangebility - Whilst the FZ 30 has a fixed zoom lens, DSLRs not only have interchangeable lenses by a host of 3rd party manufacturers to choose from.
There is no need to jump right to the top of the range lenses or even use the mfr's lens with an entry level model.
Since you ask, with $2000, I could probably get a KM 5D (based on US$799), a Sigma 24-70 and a Sigma APO 70-300 Super List prices shown:
http://sigma-marketing.com.sg/shop/default.php?cPath=20&osCsid=4348cb9f3477071f8745abc723507b93
Also, for info:
http://www.tamron.com/lenses/default.asp
http://www.thkphoto.com/products/tokina/tokina-04.html
Though changing lenses on a dSLR is a matter of pressing a button and a twist compared to having to turn a dozen times to attach a WA or teleconverter, those who want a wide range walkaround lens might consider a KM 5D with a Sigma compact hyperzoom 28-300 aspherical lens.
I have lenses covering 19mm up to 400mm focal length for my SLR. Combining a SLR and a dSLR, I would have a range of 19 -600mm, far wider than the FZ30 even with WA and Teleconverters combined in addition to a host of other features especially faster autofocus, predictive focus, (exposure) zone matching and less noisy pictures with less CA, fringing etc.
The ability to build the range by picking up bargain lenses at my leisure is what I like about d/SLRs. Most important since the lenses can be used with new "body" models released, one only has to upgrade the body if one likes the new features available. Not so with the FZ.
Maybe you can tell me how to expand the focal length range of my FZ10 as well?
Whilst you are at it, pls tell me how to get the F1.7 aperture I have for my 50mm prime for the FZ too? Since many are also having problem with low light shots, I am sure others here will thank you as well
Xandorous,
My reason for finding the Pana site comparing the size of the FZ30 to a dSLR with a 400 mm fixed focal lens being wrong is that the FZ30 is using a zoom lens with focal length from ard 7 -88mm. Also, they are ignoring the fact the dSLRs have interchangeable lens feature i.e. you can attach just the lens you need. The KM 5D with the 24-300 hyperzoom wd be a fairer comparison. In addition, if one were to consider weight alone one could use lighter lenses such as 50mm f1.7 (or 1.8).
Perhaps it is just "advertising" on the part of Panasonic, but to blindly reproduce it when you having using a SLR, know otherwise justifies questioning your motives. The least one can say is that "you think too highly of the product".
well.. ermz.. for the FZ series say FZ20, before i show u how to get 1.7 50mm on a FZ and make alot of people happy, perhaps you would like to show me a F2.8/3.7 35 - 420 equivilant lens? hmmm not to mention for free too of course (given you spend $1500 on a KM5D body and FZ20 = $1099 retail price). I'm sure many more users would thank you for that. Reason for comparing to L lens: don't have non L lens that is IS. and the Leica lens on the FZ seems to perform better than most of the normal lens from canon. Comparing with canon BECAUSE I wanna get 350D and i just came across the price.
For that $2000, you get 2 inferior (much slower) lens I noticed. not to mention spending an extra $400 over the 1.6k FZ30 (f2.8/3.7 vs 3.5/5.6) with faster and sharper lens and MUCH lesser weight. (FZ30 weight = weight of 70-300)
and note: I'm referring to a budget for the entire "life time". I've mentioned 2 types of pple, 1 who will spend more, 1 who won't. I've qualified i'm in the spend more category, so i find the camera not worth it. for a person (average joe off the streets) in the 2nd category with a 2k budget (who doesn't earn peanuts):
$1.6k (within budget) vs $2.2k (burst by $200), 600g vs 1500g
you say?
Once again I say none of us never doubt the capability of dSLR. unfortunately for us, there's people who earn "peanuts" like you who will never understand our pains. For those of us who don't earn "peanuts", we will be able to see the existing comparisons. If i've got $1600 to spare now, DSLR is no contest.
unseen,
Don't think he'll get your drift.
Anyway, think we'll have to agree to disagree.
I'll be away for two months. See you guys then and be good!
Cheers!
/still hugging and fondling my spanking new 350D! and still personally feel that the FZ30 is the better 8MP prosumer at the moment!
Don't think he'll get your drift.
Anyway, think we'll have to agree to disagree.
I'll be away for two months. See you guys then and be good!
Cheers!
/still hugging and fondling my spanking new 350D!
and still personally feel that the FZ30 is the better 8MP prosumer at the moment! lightning69 said:
Eerrrr....just want to make sure I don't get involve in the arguement, and yet maybe for my knowledge...when you take your sweet Sabrina photo using flash, have you ever use a bounce card?
When you take those fashion shots, what settings do you use? also, just wonder what flash are you using also...yes...FZ series's hotshoe is rather hopeless...they do not have TTL support, that is one of the big problems....
I am keeping my FZ10 with me just for the purpose of Landscape shooting. I believe for landscape, the sharpness is sharper than DSLR lens (since I also have a D70, so I can actually compare), but for sure I can't speak for FZ20, since all along it was known by many of us that FZ20 create more noise than FZ10 in many instances...
unseen said:
Earning "peanut"? If someone were to earn "peanut", he or she will easily be able to afford Canon EOS 1Ds Mark II liao..."peanut" leh...
I came across a SMS that a colleague of mine showed me:
NKF price list:
=========
Donation - S$5+++
Golden Tap - S$900++
Peanut - S$600,000.00!
unseen, I think you're getting a little too personal and it's quite unneccesary to post things like this. Let's keep this forum friendly k?unseen said:
lightning69, since this is afterall a panasonic forum, I think it's only expected that most lumixers will be very defensive and will place the fz series in very high regard. That's why they bought the cam in the first place.
I use a fz20 myself. I simply love it. :thumbsup: But in all honesty, it can never be compared to a DSLR. One is a prosumer, the other is a DSLR. What more can I say. :blah:
JimDavis said:
I think the problem of TTL (The lack of) is really quite solvable. I've taken quite a few pics of people at home using the flash on my fz20. Ok leh... Acceptable.
I have to say that more likely than not it's because i'm using a Nikon SB28 which allows me to control the iso settings, aperture and distance very effectively.
And yes, with the fz20, you've got to use bounce flash... Direct flash will often result in harsh exposures. An omnibounce is essential too.
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