wow where did you get the idea anyone was comparing 24-105? i did a search on all the 3 pages, no "24-105" was even found.
maybe your eyes can see something i can't. :dunno:
f/4 lens and f/2.8 lens equal ?
- Thread starter LowLights
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maybe your eyes can see something i can't. :dunno:
Oops.. you're right.. I was reading another thread comparing the 24-70 and 24-105. In that case.. you're right.. IS doesnt come into it..
In that case.. why on earth is everyone discussing this? Read the MTF charts to get your answer. Not all lenses are created equal. Some are sharper with higher resolving capabilities at f5.6 whilst others at f8.
Thanks to all who gave feedback to this thread.. constructive and non-constriuctive.. 
To those NON CONSTRUCTIVE CONTRIBUTORS.. you know who you are... the title of this thread is both technical and practice in nature.. give simple passing statement does not help forum like this.. every single contribution is important, but CONSTRUCTIVES ones is what all TS and constructive contributors wants.. so if you got problem with the title, you are feel to correct else you are welcome to just read or better yet ignore it all together.. what happen to politeness to one another ? I donot suppose you talk to your friends or collegue in this manner.
How would you like it if you contributed some points and others flame you for it... yeah yeah.. you do not make silly mistakes.. course you have NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE to give..
It a really eye opener to see how fellow members think outside the box and those with are still stuck inside the box... :nono:
The question of this thread was to asked if a f4 lens is less worthy .. not that a whether the f2.8 lens is less worthy... for those of you who are stuck in the box.. :bheart:
Yes I learn something from starting this thread. Thanks
Yes f2.8 will focus faster.. being wider..
Yes f2.8 has a 1 stop advantage.. allowing for faster shutter speed if need.. provided you are able to use it at it's widest.
If you think a bit deeper.. if both lens are set at f/8 and ask I stated the shutter is constrain at 1/60.. would this make the 2 almost the same.. of course the f/2.8 focus faster .. but is it really that much faster.. those of us who have both lenses of this f-stop would know.. we are talking about 1/XXX of a sec.. need one be so picky.. Pro, Semi-Pro might beg to differ.. but to the rest of us, I do not think it will make or break a photo.. unless you are telling me that without a f2.8 lens you do not know how to help the lens focus faster..
No self-respecting photographer would bring a lens that is smaller that f4 for low light shooting.. that why I did compare f-stop from F5.6 and smaller. As a F5.6 lens would not be able to provide sufficent lights to achieve a shutter of 1/60. But if one was to compare it at this level.. then introducing a tripod to this senario but change the shutter speed to say 2", keeping at F8... both the F5.6 and F2.8 will be NEAR equal again .. given that F2.8 will focuse faster.. Yes you guys can flame me again for this statement...
cibs mentioned of IS is part of the answer that I was wondering why no one has mentioned..
I did not mentioned IS as it would not be comparing the F-stop apple to apple.
It both this cars are stuck in a traffice jam.. wouldn't they be traveling at near same speed.. and of course given that the Fararri would be consuming petrol like a thirty jogger drink water..
That actually what I was trying to state in the constrains that I have listed .... who donot that the F2.8 (Fararri) is faster than the F4 (Cherry)..
But if one was to put it this way.. then in a Jam the Cherry will be faster .. cause it is cheaper so the driver dare to change lane "recklessly", the driver of the Fararri would not risk it.. .. but if he dare then he wins lor .. :bsmilie:
And cibs YES you get a sharper picture.. hence the cost of the lenses..:sweat:
For newbie who is reading this thread, I hope the answer helps you in chooing which lens is good for you.
The main purpose of starting this thread is so you (newbie) understand the just how much difference there really is between F2.8 and F4 and whether getting a lens with IS would help, under normal and extreme light conditions, the answer is shattered all over this thread. I trust that you all know how to ignore stupid comments and absorb the good ones..
Once again I like to thank all Good & Helpful contributions, you know who are .. I cannot quote every good ones, else this reply would be too boring to get through.. but I appasue you all .. clap clap... (sound like Academy Awards... Hahaha)
Let me be the first to wish one and all a Happy and Properous Chinese New Year and Season Greetings to all non Chinese.
hmm... wondering next time I start a Thread would anybody contribute.. Hahaha .. Cheers
To those NON CONSTRUCTIVE CONTRIBUTORS.. you know who you are... the title of this thread is both technical and practice in nature.. give simple passing statement does not help forum like this.. every single contribution is important, but CONSTRUCTIVES ones is what all TS and constructive contributors wants.. so if you got problem with the title, you are feel to correct else you are welcome to just read or better yet ignore it all together.. what happen to politeness to one another ? I donot suppose you talk to your friends or collegue in this manner.
How would you like it if you contributed some points and others flame you for it... yeah yeah.. you do not make silly mistakes.. course you have NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE to give..
It a really eye opener to see how fellow members think outside the box and those with are still stuck inside the box... :nono:
The question of this thread was to asked if a f4 lens is less worthy .. not that a whether the f2.8 lens is less worthy... for those of you who are stuck in the box.. :bheart:
Yes I learn something from starting this thread. Thanks
Yes f2.8 will focus faster.. being wider..
Yes f2.8 has a 1 stop advantage.. allowing for faster shutter speed if need.. provided you are able to use it at it's widest.
If you think a bit deeper.. if both lens are set at f/8 and ask I stated the shutter is constrain at 1/60.. would this make the 2 almost the same.. of course the f/2.8 focus faster .. but is it really that much faster.. those of us who have both lenses of this f-stop would know.. we are talking about 1/XXX of a sec.. need one be so picky.. Pro, Semi-Pro might beg to differ.. but to the rest of us, I do not think it will make or break a photo.. unless you are telling me that without a f2.8 lens you do not know how to help the lens focus faster..
No self-respecting photographer would bring a lens that is smaller that f4 for low light shooting.. that why I did compare f-stop from F5.6 and smaller. As a F5.6 lens would not be able to provide sufficent lights to achieve a shutter of 1/60. But if one was to compare it at this level.. then introducing a tripod to this senario but change the shutter speed to say 2", keeping at F8... both the F5.6 and F2.8 will be NEAR equal again .. given that F2.8 will focuse faster.. Yes you guys can flame me again for this statement...
cibs mentioned of IS is part of the answer that I was wondering why no one has mentioned..
I did not mentioned IS as it would not be comparing the F-stop apple to apple.
It both this cars are stuck in a traffice jam.. wouldn't they be traveling at near same speed.. and of course given that the Fararri would be consuming petrol like a thirty jogger drink water..
That actually what I was trying to state in the constrains that I have listed .... who donot that the F2.8 (Fararri) is faster than the F4 (Cherry)..
But if one was to put it this way.. then in a Jam the Cherry will be faster .. cause it is cheaper so the driver dare to change lane "recklessly", the driver of the Fararri would not risk it.. .. but if he dare then he wins lor .. :bsmilie:
And cibs YES you get a sharper picture.. hence the cost of the lenses..:sweat:
If one has read the post by haagen_dazs carefully you would realise the point of this thread immedately.
And note this statement.. nobody is jumping to conclusion..
1/2 cents like this are what is CONSTRUCTIVE.. learn something boys ..
For newbie who is reading this thread, I hope the answer helps you in chooing which lens is good for you.
The main purpose of starting this thread is so you (newbie) understand the just how much difference there really is between F2.8 and F4 and whether getting a lens with IS would help, under normal and extreme light conditions, the answer is shattered all over this thread. I trust that you all know how to ignore stupid comments and absorb the good ones..
Once again I like to thank all Good & Helpful contributions, you know who are .. I cannot quote every good ones, else this reply would be too boring to get through.. but I appasue you all .. clap clap... (sound like Academy Awards... Hahaha)
Let me be the first to wish one and all a Happy and Properous Chinese New Year and Season Greetings to all non Chinese.
hmm... wondering next time I start a Thread would anybody contribute.. Hahaha .. Cheers
LowLights just answered with the objectives of this thread. =)
And what was the answer? Tell me...
Topic: f4 vs f2.8 equal?
What are the objectives of the comparison? Better resolution? Faster lens? Faster AF? Better build?
1) Faster lens? Cannot be. Both lenses set to same ISO, same aperture and shutter. So both will be the same.
2) Faster AF? As some as said.. negligible IF the AF can even get a lock in low light.
3) Better Build? OP already same build is not a concern.
4) Hence better resolution - of the two difference lenses both set at the same settings.
Unless you can tell more from it, I just cannot see.
going by the poster constrain, i think there is only a few diff,
1) f2.8 focus faster like what most said.
2) f2.8 is much heavier and bigger than f4 counterpart
3) price.
4) IQ and built are ignored, so i tink basically just the above 3 as far as what i could think of
Exactly.. what's the point of this thread?
1) f2.8 faster is obvious ( as in more light )
2) f2.8 is heavier.. also obvious..
3) f2.8 pricier.. also obvious..
4 ) ....
apart from discussing the resolving capabilities of two lenses of maximum apertures f2.8 and f4... or maybe f2.8 AF faster because of the wider aperture (but that would also be dependent on the camera body so adds another variable). IS not in the equation as OP and you have pointed out. What else is there discuss? Again, the only answer is to refer to MTF charts for the lens in question at the various apertures...
Hahaha as explained in the last part of my last post... this thread was started for the benefit of newbie... if you guys observe the other threads that newbie started, they are alway/mostly asking for which to buy and in most cases it would be a comparision between the 2 nearest rival a F2.8 and a F4. Or comparision between a IS and a non IS model. Answers provided can sometimes be vague and at the end of the thread most TS is like so tired and confused
The answer might be obvious to some of us, but to a newbie it would be a hardnut to crack, if you think back we were once in their shoes, asking around looking up information, but these are not alway obvious.
I had to title the thread interestly (I hope) and vague enough for contributions, and I know for sure that title like this would have it backlashes.. but I fail in a way that there are many knownledgable people out there that might have read but not contributed, just have a looked at the number of views 1286 as of last count.
If I am not the TS I probably would not have contributed seeing how people kana wacked left right and center...
To summaries the purpose of this thread
1) To benefit newbies in their buying decision (Hopefully)
2) To state the obvious advantage of a wide aperture lens
3) That there is life after F2.8, not to write off a smaller aperature lens, in this case a F4. If one was to look at the pratical side of things, wouldn't it be true that, we normally would step down the aperture for better DOF. And use the widest aperture when needed.. so by understanding your real need you could be able to get the lens of practice usage not just follow the crowd and end up with something that does not help you..waste money for nothing..
4) Hopefully it will make newbie learn to understand and look beyond the technical specs of the lens, but more on the practice side, ie, what do I normally shoot, is a wide aperature must have or good to have (can I survive not having it). Example .. people who like taking pictures of birds.. the ideal would be a 600mm, but most settle for a 400mm F5.8 cause it is cheaper but their decision was quite easy as it involve in a big $ differences. For most zoom the difference between a F2.8 and a F4 or even an IS model is not that big..
The other example would be the 85L this is not a lens for everyone.., for someone who think that just because it's a F1.2 then it is a solid lens for low lights... try using it in outdoor shoot, the slow focusing would proberly kill you...
5) To tap the technical expertise of you guys.. :thumbsup:
6) Hopefully make all fellow members realise that we are all learning from one another, people can be mistaken that what they know is right... so be nice... :bsmilie:
7) Hopefully, fellow members can contribute their knowledge without fear of backlashes.. this way everyone benefits.
8) That all contributor be responsible for what they post, backup by personal experience of the situation not just hear say ..
9) Of course OT is fun, if it's not nasty..
10) Hopefully newbie title the thread interestingly and give a good explaination of the question in hand.. this help avoid people wacking you ... hahaha
One thing to clarify .. IQ and build was taken out of the equation because, it would side track this thread as many would be arguing over IQ
Hope you guys are satisfied with my answer.. else please feel free to flame me :bsmilie:
Oh and lastly to make people hate me ...:bsmilie: :bsmilie:
Cheers and moving On !!
The answer might be obvious to some of us, but to a newbie it would be a hardnut to crack, if you think back we were once in their shoes, asking around looking up information, but these are not alway obvious.
I had to title the thread interestly (I hope) and vague enough for contributions, and I know for sure that title like this would have it backlashes.. but I fail in a way that there are many knownledgable people out there that might have read but not contributed, just have a looked at the number of views 1286 as of last count.
If I am not the TS I probably would not have contributed seeing how people kana wacked left right and center...
To summaries the purpose of this thread
1) To benefit newbies in their buying decision (Hopefully)
2) To state the obvious advantage of a wide aperture lens
3) That there is life after F2.8, not to write off a smaller aperature lens, in this case a F4. If one was to look at the pratical side of things, wouldn't it be true that, we normally would step down the aperture for better DOF. And use the widest aperture when needed.. so by understanding your real need you could be able to get the lens of practice usage not just follow the crowd and end up with something that does not help you..waste money for nothing..
4) Hopefully it will make newbie learn to understand and look beyond the technical specs of the lens, but more on the practice side, ie, what do I normally shoot, is a wide aperature must have or good to have (can I survive not having it). Example .. people who like taking pictures of birds.. the ideal would be a 600mm, but most settle for a 400mm F5.8 cause it is cheaper but their decision was quite easy as it involve in a big $ differences. For most zoom the difference between a F2.8 and a F4 or even an IS model is not that big..
The other example would be the 85L this is not a lens for everyone.., for someone who think that just because it's a F1.2 then it is a solid lens for low lights... try using it in outdoor shoot, the slow focusing would proberly kill you...
5) To tap the technical expertise of you guys.. :thumbsup:
6) Hopefully make all fellow members realise that we are all learning from one another, people can be mistaken that what they know is right... so be nice... :bsmilie:
7) Hopefully, fellow members can contribute their knowledge without fear of backlashes.. this way everyone benefits.
8) That all contributor be responsible for what they post, backup by personal experience of the situation not just hear say ..
9) Of course OT is fun, if it's not nasty..
10) Hopefully newbie title the thread interestingly and give a good explaination of the question in hand.. this help avoid people wacking you ... hahaha
One thing to clarify .. IQ and build was taken out of the equation because, it would side track this thread as many would be arguing over IQ
Hope you guys are satisfied with my answer.. else please feel free to flame me :bsmilie:
Oh and lastly to make people hate me ...:bsmilie: :bsmilie:
Cheers and moving On !!
Die liao lah!
My lenses are max f4 only means i should ban myself from shooting events? ;p From the feedbacks in this thread, seem that f4 is consider by many as INADEQUATE for event shoots.
woah... my picture are going to be blurred huh? Wait, I can simply blame it on my f4 lenses right? How convenient!
My lenses are max f4 only means i should ban myself from shooting events? ;p From the feedbacks in this thread, seem that f4 is consider by many as INADEQUATE for event shoots.
woah... my picture are going to be blurred huh? Wait, I can simply blame it on my f4 lenses right? How convenient!
That's absolute rubbish. All the while i've been shooting events with my 28-300 at f/5.6 and 17-40 at f/4 and pictures still looked stunning. By the way most of my event shoots are those roadshows, PC shows, motor shows, stage shows, etc.
indoors @ f5.6 iso400 1/60 + flash usually produce the type of photograph most pros/photodesk editors would chuck into the bin. I doubt you can capture much of the environment to give context to your photos. I believe any PnS would produce photos similar if you use those settings.
Next time instead of looking at only your photos, compare against some working pro and look at the difference in photos, and wonder why you can't get similar photos.
The difference between a 70-200f4l and the 70-200f2.8l is a good $1000.
A softer less contrast 17-35 F2.8L can buy you 2 x 17-40F4L.
Does it make you wonder why working professionals, photography experts, those who know anything about photography at all (not talking about equipment collectors) are willing to pay that $1000+++ for the negligible difference?
Have you ever thought if it's because those experts/professionals are missing screws in their brain, or that it's because you're missing ALOT of knowledge in your mind? I notice you actually talk as if you know something about photography...
Any stunning photos to stun us with other than your words?
Wah...then i must suggest to Reuters to change their lenses to the venerable 28-300mm eh...=/
:bsmilie:
Bro Unseen,
Am confused. Why do you say "indoors @ f5.6 iso400 1/60" will produce junk pictures?
Trying to break it down:
1. ISO400 - A pretty common setting.
2. 1/60 - A shutter speed that is fast enough for most indoor subjects
3. f5.6 - Is this what you think is not adequate? Too slow? But with flash why not?
Cant get the rationale behind this scenario where it is deemed to produce bad picture. Kindly educate us becos many of us are shooting at this setting (due to limitation of lens) on our consumer grade lens. Thanks
Am confused. Why do you say "indoors @ f5.6 iso400 1/60" will produce junk pictures?
Trying to break it down:
1. ISO400 - A pretty common setting.
2. 1/60 - A shutter speed that is fast enough for most indoor subjects
3. f5.6 - Is this what you think is not adequate? Too slow? But with flash why not?
Cant get the rationale behind this scenario where it is deemed to produce bad picture. Kindly educate us becos many of us are shooting at this setting (due to limitation of lens) on our consumer grade lens. Thanks
indoors @ f5.6 iso400 1/60 + flash usually produce the type of photograph most pros/photodesk editors would chuck into the bin. I doubt you can capture much of the environment to give context to your photos. I believe any PnS would produce photos similar if you use those settings.
Next time instead of looking at only your photos, compare against some working pro and look at the difference in photos, and wonder why you can't get similar photos.
Belle&Sebastain
Senior Member
indoors, iso 400? unless its so brightly lit, your background will just be a shade of dark black background,
1/60, well cannot fault that sometimes i need to go as low as 1/30
f5.6??? what is my focus? group shots?
my humble shots do not mean to be groundbreaking, but these kind of settings are the type when i first started photography without any grip on
1) isolation of subjects
2) background atmosphere
3) what is dear-in-the headlights shots?
www.singaporebrides.com/forumboard/messages/7/352061.html?1170771810
do stop by my thread and observe the indoor shots i took, note for indoor shots, iso400 will not make the cut, even if i'm using f1.4, i may have enough light to lit my background but not enough to freeze my subjects.
for those ppl who worship your f4 lenses ( and i do have them too), my all means, i too, am a fool to carry so much weight for nothing and maybe i should just be another flash gordon and just use the 28-105 f4.5-f5.6
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