D70s color mode

[Zerstorer]

I presume you're talking about commercial printers that would be capable of the CMYK and other colourspaces that are way over what aRGB/sRGB can do?

I'm still lost at the printing portion.

CMYK refers to a printing process, a representation of colour data(as opposed to RGB or LAB colour) and it has its own colourspace.

I'm not sure what you are referring to exactly, but I believe that most CMYK machines have a much smaller gamut than sRGB.

I was actually referring to the current top inkjets from Epson/HP/Canon. They have long exceeded sRGB.

 

[d7t3]

I think aRGB is for this workflow:
( RAW > ) aRGB > edit > convert profile > output

It allows you to have a better source before converting to the final profile. Like if you process your RAW to a 16-bit aRGB TIFF, you get to choose how to shape all that info before "squeezing" it into final form (e.g. CMYK for press, 8-bit sRGB for frontier, etc.)

I feel it's like working in RAW before converting to JPEG, as opposed to working on a JPEG straight.

If I'm to convert aRGB to sRGB, wouldn't that result in a loss of information that would require me to reprocess the images? I've been converting aRGB to sRGB but I don't significantly find a difference after conversion from Nikon View (select-> right click -> JPEG) and PS (convert to profile). Am I doing something wrong or is it my eyes ? I do see differences when I select a different mode of colours in Nikon Capture.

 

[rebbot]

CMYK refers to a printing process, a representation of colour data(as opposed to RGB or LAB colour) and it has its own colourspace.

I'm not sure what you are referring to exactly, but I believe that most CMYK machines have a much smaller gamut than sRGB.

I was actually referring to the current top inkjets from Epson/HP/Canon. They have long exceeded sRGB.

I think there is another bigger or wider representation of color data other the CMYK right? Cannot remember what it is though~

 

[Michael]

not true. you still have choose a mode/profile to output your images to.

true, you need to chose the colour space in your RAW converter software, but you dont confuse yourself with mode I to III.

It is of course ultimate to choose the colour space matching your output medium (monitor, printer etc). If you choose for your conversion a colour space bigger than the one the output medium operates in, then you are in for a surprise. Please take note that a lot of photolabs operate in sRGB (fotohub for example) and not in aRGB.
The difference between the two is really like holding two sets of pencil cases, one with 24 pencils in different colours (sRGB) and one with 50 pencils in different colours (aRGB). If you try to use the 24 pencil set to copy a drawing that was drawn with the larger set you will have a problem, because half of the colours do not exist in your case.

so before using aRGB go and check with your fotolab if they are actually able to print it.....

 

[d7t3]

Actually Nikon is being confusing. They call Ia, II and IIIa "color modes" whereas they are all the same mode.

Colour modes in PS: sRGB, CMYK, Lab...
Colour spaces in sRGB: sRGB, aRGB, Pro Photo RGB...
Space gamut: all the colours in the space
Device gamut: what the device can actually produce
Profile: fits the space gamut to the device gamut

I hope I'm getting this right...

(see wikipedia for fuller explanation)

 

[d7t3]

yes, of course.

but can i ask, how do the Ia and IIIa come out in photo lab prints?

true, you need to chose the colour space in your RAW converter software, but you dont confuse yourself with mode I to III.

 

[yyD70S]

so before using aRGB go and check with your fotolab if they are actually able to print it.....

And, by the way Michael, any chance you know (or anyone else) which labs in S'pore has the capability to operate in aRGB? Thank you.

 

[espn]

Depends on what you are printing from. Frontiers are still more or less sRGB bound. Most of the better inkjets have exceeded sRGB in many areas and approximate adobeRGB.

Ah!!! Thanks!! Just updated my knowledge base on this. I've the old school of thought that no printers are yet to approximate or close up on aRGB for printing.

That's the beauty of it. The algorithm will attempt to remap and blend the colours such that you will get a SIMILAR looking print even when you go from AdobeRGB to sRGB.

If you were to see a big difference then the profile conversion would have been flawed.
Note the choice of rendering intent:
Perceptual->remap all values for closest visual match, avoid clipping
Relative Colormetric->Match exact values within gamut, remap those that exceed to closest color
Absolute Colormetric->Match only exact values, clip values out of gamut (not recommended for photos)

Generally, people only use perceptual or RC for photos.

I see, thanks for the information, it enlightened me on new stuff. :thumbsup:

 

[Michael]

I guess the only way to find out what your lab can print is to ask them.....
and the next thing that will happen to you is that your monitor is not calibrated correctly and the photo that looked so great on your screen comes back from the lab as a mess... or totally different because you forgot to tell them not to touch your file....

How easy was it in the good old days, when most of us happyly shot roll after roll and left all those colour space, hue, tint and whatever problems to the experts in the fotolab.....

 

[yyD70S]

Thought I would like to share this with all... especially this being a very confusing but important subject.



Interactive Color Space Gamut Modelshttp://www.drycreekphoto.com/tools/printer_gamuts/gamutmodel.html

 

[d7t3]

thanks yyD70S. nice graphics

 

[sgfriend]

So actually most of our printer at home will print which mode? HP, Epson or Canon?

 

[d7t3]

most home printers will use sRGB profile.

So actually most of our printer at home will print which mode? HP, Epson or Canon?

 

[Zerstorer]

Actually Nikon is being confusing. They call Ia, II and IIIa "color modes" whereas they are all the same mode.

Not really, nikons color modes are exactly what they are. They are not the same. 3 different colour modes in 2 different colourspaces tailored for to produce jpegs with their stated characteristics.

Colour modes in PS: sRGB, CMYK, Lab...

In this case, the correct term is RGB. sRGB is a colourspace.

Colour spaces in sRGB: sRGB, aRGB, Pro Photo RGB...

These are RGB colourspaces.

Space gamut: all the colours in the space
Device gamut: what the device can actually produce
Profile: fits the space gamut to the device gamut

No, a profile merely identifies what colourspace an image is in and defines the boundaries and characteristics of that colour space.

Mapping one colourspace to another requires a profile conversion and this is handled by the colour engine of the software. e.g for adobe its ACE.

 

[Zerstorer]

It is of course ultimate to choose the colour space matching your output medium (monitor, printer etc). If you choose for your conversion a colour space bigger than the one the output medium operates in, then you are in for a surprise. Please take note that a lot of photolabs operate in sRGB (fotohub for example) and not in aRGB.

Actually they don't recognize any profiles or colourspace. What the machines do is to print take the RAW numerical RGB values and print it directly.

That is why if your image is in adobeRGB, the values would scaled in the wrong boundaries and it would totally look washed out. The ideal method would be to send an image already converted to the machines actual profile.

You can confirm it yourself by doing this test, send a sRGB image for direct printing together with the same image with the profile tags removed. It will print the same because the numerical values in the file are the same.

so before using aRGB go and check with your fotolab if they are actually able to print it.....

The ability to handle aRGB is dependent on the software they use. Any lab can handle it if they are willing to open the image in a colour managed software and print from there, but that's not the usual workflow.

 

[Zerstorer]

I think there is another bigger or wider representation of color data other the CMYK right? Cannot remember what it is though~

CMYK gamuts are usually pretty small. So there are many that are much wider.

 

[d7t3]

Not really, nikons color modes are exactly what they are. They are not the same. 3 different colour modes in 2 different colourspaces tailored for to produce jpegs with their stated characteristics.

I get what you're saying, 3 different c.spaces, but shouldn't they all be considered the same RGB "mode"?

In this case, the correct term is RGB.

OK, my bad.

No, a profile merely identifies what colourspace an image is in and defines the boundaries and characteristics of that colour space.

Mapping one colourspace to another requires a profile conversion and this is handled by the colour engine of the software. e.g for adobe its ACE.

OK, I understand "profile". I have another question though: let's say I have an image with the standard sRGB profile, I have an inkjet with its printer profile, what should I do before sending to print? Convert to printer profile?

 

[Zerstorer]

OK, I understand "profile". I have another question though: let's say I have an image with the standard sRGB profile, I have an inkjet with its printer profile, what should I do before sending to print? Convert to printer profile?

Depends alot on what are your settings in your printer driver and the software you use.
There are many permutations for each different printer and software combination.

Converting to output device profile works only when there is no form of colourmanagement further down the chain.

The profile conversion can be performed automatically in the printing software, or at the printer driver level or manually done by yourself. Each requires different settings and is specific to each printer.

 

[d7t3]

Can I conclude from this, if I have a "consumer" type printer, I better not try anything funny or expect too much from my image profiles, cos there's no telling what the (idiotproof) printer driver is doing to the colour mgt? i.e. just use the standard sRGB profile.

 

[Zerstorer]

Can I conclude from this, if I have a "consumer" type printer, I better not try anything funny or expect too much from my image profiles, cos there's no telling what the (idiotproof) printer driver is doing to the colour mgt? i.e. just use the standard sRGB profile.

In this case yes. Check if you can find the details on the web for your specific printer.

Epson provides printing guides with even the basic photo printers, so you can take that into consideration in your next purchase.