CPF Minimum Sum

[starboard]

everyone knows that. however, most are NOT even listening to the explanations. you are just one of the few who have their own thoughts.

most people i know just say "i want my money"

and you can say whatever you want, but thinking that the government will actually try to lose all our money is insane. do you even know why the returns on investment are low?

because they keep it in low-risk investments.

now most of those small-minded detractors are demanding that we must have higher interest rates. BUT that only comes with higher risk investments.

go ahead. you want to risk it all on your own, you can do it. just don't complain when everything is gone.

Everyone knows that. Knows what? Minimum Sum is good?
Most are Not listening to the explanations. What explanations from where? Are the explanations reasonable? Are the assumptions correct?

Before you start any explanation do you understand what are the cpf members REAL concern or explain based on what the government thinks is the members concern?

Most people just say "I want my money back" What is wrong with that? It is my money and I want it back, it is rational and logical. If I borrowed your camera and lens telling you I return to you on sunday. Come Saturday, I tell you I will give you your lens back on Sunday and you can have your sd card next year and the camera the year after. Sure as the sun will rise you are going to tell me "I want my camera back"!


To you, thinking that the government loosing all is insane. Thinking it will not loose all is worse, such thinking belongs to the Institute of Mental Health. Recent history demostrates that it is not impossible to loose everything. We have seen the collapse of Barrings Bank, the spectacular collapse of Lehman Brothers the wiping out of pension funds associated with Enron. It is not insane it is real.

What a joke. Low risk investment? Why do I need to keep money in CPF to do that? Give me back my money and I do it myself and get better returns buying triple A bonds. AAA bonds are low risk too. I can get in and if I sense danger I can get out. With cpf I am stuck. For good or bad, I suck thumb.

Yes I prefer to manage the money myself "I want my money".

Would you rather loose the money yourself or would you prefer someone else loose it for you?

 

[Big Kahuna]

I am the first to object any early withdrawal, ask any gambler, most of them believe they can outsmart the house, and look at the end results, both Casinos is Sg have combined billions of profit s every year, tgis is even more than some banks who have solid business governance, so don't tell me the casinos earn from theme park and shopping malls, it has be from those smart alex. If we are to allow cpf withdrawal, in few years down the road we will see our streets and overhead bridges filled with these homeless, our high rise became their bunggy jump arena, why our society need to subsidies these group of people?

 

[starboard]

I am the first to object any early withdrawal, ask any gambler, most of them believe they can outsmart the house, and look at the end results, both Casinos is Sg have combined billions of profit s every year, tgis is even more than some banks who have solid business governance, so don't tell me the casinos earn from theme park and shopping malls, it has be from those smart alex. If we are to allow cpf withdrawal, in few years down the road we will see our streets and overhead bridges filled with these homeless, our high rise became their bunggy jump arena, why our society need to subsidies these group of people?

What is your definition of early withdrawl?
60, 70, 80 or 90? When is a good time?


So according to you everyone who receives their cpf will go to the casino and loose all their money?

Based on the expected gambling few the majority is held hostage to later withdrawal?

I don't know whar is your proposed withdrawal age so for argument sake, let us take early withdrawal as 60 and later withdrawl age as 80.

Now a 60 year person who is a gambler will squander his money at the casino. Similarly a 90 year old gambler will also do so. Both will become destitute once the money is gone. So what is the advantage later withdrawl?

Next if both after finishing their money make our highrise as bungee platform. Who is to say jumping at 60 (early withdrawal) is bad but jumping at 80 (later withdrawal) is ok.

 

[Kit]

Now a 60 year person who is a gambler will squander his money at the casino. Similarly a 90 year old gambler will also do so. Both will become destitute once the money is gone. So what is the advantage later withdrawl?

Assuming he lives till 95.
If he lost all his money at 90, the state will have to take care of him for another 5 years.
If he lost all his money at 60, the state will have to take care of him for another 35 years!

But yeah, this argument about "you will lose all your money if you don't park it with us" is moot and self-righteous.

 

[kei1309]

Well.... You have to assume the worst case scenario and that is what the government is doing.

 

[qystan]

An opinion must have some basis, either from known research, personal interaction or at least ask your friends. I cannot just wake up one morning and say all Singaporeans love Roy and it is my opinion and expect others to believe. Even if I were to say majority of Singaporeans love Roy, I can support my saying so based on the money he collected. My post was in relation to donut88. He called people who question the cpf idiot. I responded to his post and at the end of it stating that not all are idiots. Yet you persisted to call people idiots. You stick a finger in my face and I responded accordingly. I make no apoligies for it.

I said "most are".

I didn't stick anything in your face but I can't help it if you feel qualified.

And in case you didn't notice, this is kopitiam, nothing much discussed here has any value.

 

[Yutaka Go]

Well.... You have to assume the worst case scenario and that is what the government is doing.

The worst case scenario is PR left SG with CPF money to buy landed property at their home country while SG citizens cannot use most of their money until age 90

Recently, CNA reported that, according to Manpower Minister, over the last decade more than $4 billion dollars (avg. $426 million each year) was withdrawn from CPF members leaving Singapore.

https://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/prs-leaving-singapore-allowed-keep-160000226.html

The reason why they keep changing the rules is because they borrow CPF money from us but don't have money to pay us back

The FT policy have back fire on them but ordinary hardworking SG citizens become the victims

 

[Big Kahuna]

Blaming PR withdrawing their money is the worst excuses you had in delaying the withdrawal age...I am not going to elaborate further since it's flame baiting :bsmilie:

 

[Big Kahuna]

What is your definition of early withdrawl?
60, 70, 80 or 90? When is a good time?


So according to you everyone who receives their cpf will go to the casino and loose all their money?

Based on the expected gambling few the majority is held hostage to later withdrawal?

I don't know whar is your proposed withdrawal age so for argument sake, let us take early withdrawal as 60 and later withdrawl age as 80.

Now a 60 year person who is a gambler will squander his money at the casino. Similarly a 90 year old gambler will also do so. Both will become destitute once the money is gone. So what is the advantage later withdrawl?

Next if both after finishing their money make our highrise as bungee platform. Who is to say jumping at 60 (early withdrawal) is bad but jumping at 80 (later withdrawal) is ok.

Problem and complaint usually came from that noisy few....we cannot assume everyone can manage their fund like expert few, so if there is even a handful of people gets burn...it's justifiable for the gov to think long and hard for their future...this is what an immature society need....strong and firm policy...Sg ain't famous as Fine City for nothing...or else everyone will sweep their rubbish without needing a sign board or summon ticket to remind them.

If you ask me, I will suggest the best is don't let them withdraw at all and turn them into life time annuity....then we can make sure everyone got home to stay and everyone got rice to eat....with the newly improved healthcare plan...it's almost bullet proof for all Singaporean to get old with dignity

 

[sammy888]

I am the first to object any early withdrawal, ask any gambler, most of them believe they can outsmart the house, and look at the end results, both Casinos is Sg have combined billions of profit s every year, tgis is even more than some banks who have solid business governance, so don't tell me the casinos earn from theme park and shopping malls, it has be from those smart alex. If we are to allow cpf withdrawal, in few years down the road we will see our streets and overhead bridges filled with these homeless, our high rise became their bunggy jump arena, why our society need to subsidies these group of people?

Interesting as you brought up Casinos. Don't mind if I tag on to your mg.

Now the CPF was just one of many things the authorities tell us they do for our own good to protect from ourselves. And along that line, it was first mentioned Singapore will never have a casino. Next thing you know they feel having a casino is fine we just need to make sure it is not easy for locals to get in and we also will have set special units to look after bad cases of those who over gamble their life savings away and next thing you know.. They built TWO CASINOS. For me, I don't gamble so that vice is not something I need to worry in my radar. Want to help the locals? Why not increase the entry fee for Singaporeans to a much higher figure or better ban all Singaporean from doing so. Now that would be helping us help ourselves.

Now with the CPF they keep changing the rule as they claim this is in line with what life is going on and in this case they claim everyone is not capable of managing their money, saving money and we will live longer. Not being able to draw my CPF is quite harsh but it is for my own good so why not ban all Singaporean from the casino? I am in retail and I have a store in MBS and I can tell you from what I listen to when I talk to locals who goes to the casino and I am talking HDB type aunties and uncles.. they still say $100 is no biggie. I am not going to say how many might have gamble their shirt away but so... why set it at $100 if really this was to help and save us from ourselves in gamble? Not harsh wat compare to CPF regulation of redrawal. Like ERP... this is a great money maker just like cigarette and liquid tax. These are all a study in human nature and understanding it well enough to know how to take advantage of it. this is just one of many areas if you take the time to see where yes I agree some good is done but it is implemented only when there is a financial return going to someone or organisation.

As someone say CPF money is not use for high risk investment thus the return are low... now we have never heard historically how low a return they are making in terms of profit. But if the money was use to fund the (random examples or possibilities) development of ERPs projects, casinos...among many other projects which for sure have really damn good returns.. do they considered that their money and nothing to do with our CPF? Problem is we are not even aware who gets what money and use for what project and what results. And when the people who are authorized to lend out that money to the same hands that takes it, which might be themselves as they are sitting on the board of directors.. then.. whose to say if money gone out is returned or the return does include profits or not? I am fine with the idea of having money given back to us when we are old or we get to take some back and the rest for our old age but unfortunately being someone with a mind, access to the internet, education, travel the world...etc. I have LOTS OF QUESTIONS that is cropping up and there has never been one official word of assurance or national broadcast message to help everyone be assured of what's going on.

When a bank or an insurance company does that to me.. like I recently did .. I sacked a local insurance company of one of my policy last year when it was not able to give me the answers I asked from them. I have even cut credit card bank.

In recent history we have seen how certain govt in some countries that turned around and did harm to their own people or economy, family members owning state establishment or companies, giant conglomerate banks with triple AAA rating going bankrupt, famous investing companies and executive who lost and cover up legendary loses on wall street, insurances companies losing value on their policies..etc all this under the vigilance of good govt or involving the govt. But then you see news of a megachurch where the top board people cheats the entire congregation and no one is the wiser till someone in their midst most likely wanted more money but could not get it thus squeak on the rest. But it does show if the illegal act is kept to just a few key people in control who not only collects take the money but are also the one authorised to engage, hire or pay for outside services or to companies they own so can control the fee to charge or take KICKBACKS... no one is the wiser when it happens. And for others in the church who try to indicate any possibilities of ill doins, they use the court to sue them into silence or redrawal of the claim. And this is a damn CHURCH doing this.

I am not saying out govt are cheating with that example but it has gotten me a little more then concern and I am want some assuring answers. I can think up many scenarios of how the CPF can be misuse and maybe this is not even known to the very top. But like any big companies.. only when something happens then everyone starts to look left and right. But usually in such cases... too late liao in some cases.

Anyone remember the famous case of cheating in SIA? How two people just by taking out the coin values of various claims.. they stole millions right under the nose of management. This was not something that happen over night they did it for months or years. If those of you don't want to ask questions and stick your head in the sand for life.. I am fine with that so be fine with what I need to do.

By the way, if someone is lousy with money, DON'T NEED TO wait till he gets his money from his CPF, today already with just his present pay packet he is screwing it all up. No need to wait till then as CPF authorities and nay sayer would say. He can still be broke and in debt and visiting the MP at the meet the people and make a jerk of himself asking for help. And will the MP be helping him/her now?

 

[Yutaka Go]

Blaming PR withdrawing their money is the worst excuses you had in delaying the withdrawal age...I am not going to elaborate further since it's flame baiting :bsmilie:

The fact that they keep changing the rules to delay paying back to CPF indicate that they don't have money to put back into the CPF.

If someone own you money and they keep delaying payment, do you think they have money to pay you back ?

 

[sammy888]

I am the first to object any early withdrawal, ask any gambler, most of them believe they can outsmart the house, and look at the end results, both Casinos is Sg have combined billions of profit s every year, tgis is even more than some banks who have solid business governance, so don't tell me the casinos earn from theme park and shopping malls, it has be from those smart alex. If we are to allow cpf withdrawal, in few years down the road we will see our streets and overhead bridges filled with these homeless, our high rise became their bunggy jump arena, why our society need to subsidies these group of people?

Interesting as you brought up Casinos. Don't mind if I tag on to your mg.

Now the CPF was just one of many things they authorities tell us a lot of things they do is for our own good to protect even from ourselves. And along that line, it was first mentioned Singapore will never have a casino. Next thing you know they feel having a casino is fine we just need to make sure it is not easy for locals to get in and we also will have set special units to look after bad cases of those who over gamble their life savings away and next thing you know.. They built TWO CASINOS. For me, I don't gamble so that vice is not something I need to worry in my radar. Want to help the locals? Why not increase the entry fee for Singapore to a much higher figure or better ban all Singaporean from doing so.

Now with the CPF they keep changing the rule as they claim this is in line with what life is going on and in this case they claim everyone is not capable of managing their money, saving money and we will live longer. Not being able to draw my CPF is quite harsh but it is for my own good so why not ban all Singaporean from the casino? I am in retail nd I have a store in MBS and I can tell you from what I listen to when I talk to locals who goes to the casino and I am talking HDB type aunties and uncles.. they still say $100 is no biggie. I am not going to say how many might have gamble their shirt away but so... why set it at $100 if really this was to help the us from ourselves in gamble? Like ERP... this is a great money maker. These are all a study in human nature and understanding it well enough to know how to take advantage of it. this is just one of many areas if you take the time to see where yes I agree some good is done but it is implemented only when there is a financial return going to someone or organisation.

As someone say CPF money is not use for high risk investment thus the return are low... now we have never heard historically how low a return they are making in terms of profit. But if they money was use to fund the development of ERPs, casinos...among many other projects which for sure have really damn good returns.. do they considered that their money and nothing to do with our CPF? Problem is we are not even aware who gets what money and use for what project and what results. And when the people who are authorized to lend out that money to the same hands that takes it, which might be themselves as they are sitting on the board of directors.. then.. whose to say if money gone out is returned or the return does include profits or not? I am fine with the idea of having money given back to us when we are old or we get to take some back and the rest for our old age but unfortunately being someone with a mind, access to the internet, education, travel the world...etc. I have LOTS OF QUESTIONS that is cropping up and there has never been one official word of assurance or national broadcast message to help everyone be assured of what's going on. I strongly believe if there ever was an official who comes out and tell you that you are mistaken and this is why and list everything out as to what's being use for that money and why?... Most of stop asking for their money simply because all fear has been eliminated. That is human nature. The fact that so too long there has been a total silent on this is cause people to think other wise and panic.

When a bank or an insurance company does that to me.. like I recently did .. I sacked a local insurance company of one of my policy last year when it was not able to give me the answers I asked from them. I have even cut credit card bank.

In recent history we have seen how certain govt in some country can turn around and do harm to their own people, giant banks with triple AAA rating going bankrupt, famous investing companies and executive who lost and cover up legendary loses on wall street, insurances companies losing value on their policies..etc all this under the vigilance of good govt or involving the govt. But then you see news of a mega church where the top board people cheats the entire congregation and no one is the wiser till someone in their midst most likely wanted more money but could not get it and squeak on the rest. But it does show if the act is kept to just a few people in control who not only are the one that take the money but also are the one that authorise to hire or pay for whatever services, who they hire and take KICKBACKS... no one is the wiser. I am not saying out govt are cheating with that example but it has gotten me a little more then concern and I am want some assuring answers. I can think up many scenarios of how the CPF can be misuse and maybe this is not even known to the very top. But like any big companies.. only when something happens then everyone starts to look left and right. Remember the Ponzi scheme that lots of people lost billions. But usually in such cases... too late liao in some cases.

Anyone remember the famous case of cheating in SIA? How two people just by taking out the coin values of various claims.. they stole millions right under the nose of management. This was not something that happen over night they did it for 13 years. If those of you don't want to ask questions and stick your head in the sand for life, I am fine with that so be fine with what I need to do. http://www.cad.gov.sg/content/cad/e...how--35-million-was-stolen-over-13-years.html

By the way, if someone is lousy with money, DON'T NEED TO wait till he gets his money from his CPF, today already with just his present pay packet he is screwing it all up. No need to wait till then as CPF and nay sayer say. He can still be broke and in debt and visiting the MP at the meet the people and make a jerk of himself asking for help.

There is a well known saying "TRUST BUT VERIFY"

 

[starboard]

I said "most are".

I didn't stick anything in your face but I can't help it if you feel qualified.

And in case you didn't notice, this is kopitiam, nothing much discussed here has any value.

You spend your time on something that has no value?
Are you unwell?

 

[Kit]

The worst scenario and saddest of all is for those who didn't lived to see their money. Just because they were told they couldn't manage their money better.

 

[starboard]

Assuming he lives till 95.
If he lost all his money at 90, the state will have to take care of him for another 5 years.
If he lost all his money at 60, the state will have to take care of him for another 35 years!

But yeah, this argument about "you will lose all your money if you don't park it with us" is moot and self-righteous.

You are making another assumption that the 'state will take care of him'.
Does this advantage still apply if the state, as a matter of policy, do not take care of him?


Scenario: (State takes no action to take care)

Withdrawal at 60. Money used up at 61. zero cost to government.
Withdrawal at 80. Money used up at 91. Zero cost to government.

So there is no advantage keeping the money.


My contention is that whether it is early or later withdrawal it makes no difference. So full withdrawal at retirement is preferred.

 

[Kit]

I'm not making the assumption, the state is.

 

[qystan]

You spend your time on something that has no value? Are you unwell?

I come here to kill time and getting amusement while I'm at it.

I won't post anything that matters in cs kopitiam and you may want to seriously consider your chosen platform to air things you believe is important.

 

[starboard]

I come here to kill time and getting amusement while I'm at it.

I won't post anything that matters in cs kopitiam and you may want to seriously consider your chosen platform to air things you believe is important.

The idea of killing time and getting amusement, by posting one line calling people idiot is something I cannot understand. Calling people idiot is an amusement to you?

Whether the subject here is important to me or not, participation in debate helps me to question my assumptions, my point of view and eventually it may alter or strengthen my views on the topic. Any place is a good place for debate, and here at Clubsnap Kopitiam is a good place.

There are many clear thinking people here, whose writing and view points I appreciate. I may not agree with some, but I don't call them idiots and they are not clowns for my amusement.

 

[ninelives]

Blaming PR withdrawing their money is the worst excuses you had in delaying the withdrawal age...I am not going to elaborate further since it's flame baiting :bsmilie:

you already started it.

 

[Big Kahuna]

I think you need to understand how I look at her situation and what she is asking for. This has nothing to do with her house which for all we know it has already been paid out. what interest me is the fact she is talking about reaching that age close to what they govt said we will live so what then? If she only have a few more years to go and she want to settle things in her life including planning her own funeral AND SHE IS LIKE ME NOT MARRIED BUT SINGLE. We are settling our life's responsibility toward that ending time of our lives. SHE IS A PRIME EXAMPLE of that claims the govt is making.

What is the alternative? Leave the money in there to give to CPF when we die????? I am like that as a manager of my life.. I have the money outside of CPF but so what? Whatever is in my CPF account is still my money and I choose to be able to control and make full use of it the way I want. If I want to keep it inside and not use... that's fine. But if i want to take it out or consider what use I need for it at a given time.. I need to know I am able to do so work that into my planning with some predictability in case of emergency. This means I have full control of my life and property including money. Is that wrong?

I could go on but from all my observation over all these years.. I keep smelling smoke and nobody has ever ... ever gave us a satisfactory or worst a proven proper answer as to what is being use and done with that money. We instead are by law to totally base that on TRUST AND FAITH LIKE RELIGION that the money is safely kept and used by 'others'. Sorry...I see too much human lies and BS the world over to trust that deeply. You can? You trust your family, your lover or friends that must and have never been cheated or bluffed? Sure? It can only go so far for me before I start to think where I smell smoke.. there is a fire hidden somewhere. Till something can show me in black and white .. i will always have a skeptical side that is always on the lookout for the truth whatever it is. If you want ot stay under a rock all your life and keep the faith.. That is your right. I can respect that. It's silly as real life will make you the victim to some situation in life but I can respect that.

See how may "I" you used in your article? If you are right then that's good for you, imagine if you fail in your judgement? Whose problem it became?