Canon new range of printers

[gooseberry]

...you're paying nearly 40% more to use the card-print function...

I always thought that you could still use the card-print function without the lcd screen ? Is that not the case ?
If you don't want the card reader - the R210 is cheaper and has the same print quality.

This discussion has also raised another query, why would you want to print duplex on an inkjet printer anyway ?

I would mostly use my inkjet for photo printing - any documents I would print on an affordable laser printer - huge savings cost in terms of toner costs for printing documents on a laser printer than on an inkjet - you would quickly pay for the cost of a decent laser printer and get better quality documents.

 

[Watcher]

This thread has become a little ridiculous. I have to teach English here!

Hearsay: second-hand information: information that is heard from other people

Prejudice: opinion formed beforehand: a preformed opinion

Hearsay for the speed: "Some feedback from owners is that their E printers actually take about 20 mins to print". Without your own information or verifying the info, you repeated what others said. That is hearsay. This occurred after I had posted the links to the CNet review (which I guess wasn't read). This quote came from your posts ("comments came from Epson users who're USING Epson printers") where you did not verify it or have a printer to test it out.

Prejudice: The printer is expensive to operate, the printer is slow. However, I have debunked both of these facts. Comparision with older printers, coupled with hearsay ("couple of friends who're using the CX3100 and 830") still continued. Again, after I had provided the link to the review stating otherwise.

Let me put it this way: we are talking about the current range printer R300/R200 vs printer yet to be released, not old or different class models (CX3100 is not a photo printer, 830>1.5 year old). You evidently based your judgement of the newer models on the older models. That is prejudice. Regardless of all the engineering, more nozzles etc, the print speed of the R300 has been verified by CNet, steve-digicam, and others on the various product review board to be <5 mins for A4 and cost (CNet) to be comparable. Who is not believing "the experience of a group of users" here?!?

The audacity to suggest that 60% of the users not using Canon cameras should upgrade/replace with a Canon one just because they restricted it so smacks of arrogance. A non PictBridge, non Canon camera user cannot then print directly using the printer as you had said. So they are supposed to pay money to upgrade their less than 1 year old camera, so that they can print?!?

You are not even reading right. I seem to find this happening when zealots from a particular brand. With Google and Encarta, research can be done in seconds without leaving your desk. Not bothering to do so, not even bothered to click and read the link provided shows the true motivation.

 

[Watcher]

I always thought that you could still use the card-print function without the lcd screen ? Is that not the case ?
If you don't want the card reader - the R210 is cheaper and has the same print quality.

I have said so in post #19. Evidently, someone (not you, gooseberry) has problem reading. Yes, you can print without the color LCD screen. You just cannot preview. Use the camera's LCD to find out the file name, insert the card and voila! new prints .

This discussion has also raised another query, why would you want to print duplex on an inkjet printer anyway ?

I would mostly use my inkjet for photo printing - any documents I would print on an affordable laser printer - huge savings cost in terms of toner costs for printing documents on a laser printer than on an inkjet - you would quickly pay for the cost of a decent laser printer and get better quality documents.

Sigh, again, I had said so in post #19. Read my post carefully. Duplex is a very "good" idea, as I had said before in my posts...

 

[gooseberry]

I have said so in post #19....

Sorry Watcher, but didn't read all your posts, as this thread is too long - just saw Neo's last post above and based on what he wrote, I assumed such things weren't already covered. I guess I should have learned to stop giving people the benefit of the doubt and double check what their on about.

 

[Watcher]

Sorry Watcher, but didn't read all your posts, as this thread is too long - just saw Neo's last post above and based on what he wrote, I assumed such things weren't already covered. I guess I should have learned to stop giving people the benefit of the doubt and double check what their on about.

No problem. I used to do the same too (giving the benefit of the doubt) but experience have taught me otherwise.

 

[Neo]

Watcher, I don't see why you have to get so agitated.

1) I don't think "hearsay" is the correct word to use here. I hate to get into linguistic argument with you, but hearsay is unverified information heard or received from another, or a rumour. This info is from users who're actively using the product, so "feedback" is a much more accurate word to use.

Anyway, have you used a R300? If not, does that not make you guilty of "hearsay" as defined by yourself? By the way, I did visit the link you provided. Again, another unnecessary assumption on your part on my credibility and character....

Plus, I did not in anyway suggest that "60% of the users not using Canon cameras should upgrade/replace with a Canon one..." If you read my reply carefully, you'd see that it was a reply to your comment that direct camera printing is "not possible on the Canon printer for those cameras without PictBridge." I'm just highlighting that there're 40% of the cameras in the market that WILL work on the Canon printers, since both non-PictBridge Canon cameras AND all PictBridge digital cameras can do so. Please do not be so hasty in jumping on my posts... :nono:

Gooseberry: Laser works very well for monochrome text (I own one too), but some reports which includes charts, tables and photos do require colour.

 

[Watcher]

Watcher, I don't see why you have to get so agitated.

1) I don't think "hearsay" is the correct word to use here. I hate to get into linguistic argument with you, but hearsay is unverified information heard or received from another, or a rumour. This info is from users who're actively using the product, so "feedback" is a much more accurate word to use.

Sigh, watch shows like "Law and Order". Or read here which was the source of my quote. It is not a linguistic argument; I use the word to precisely describe how you obtain information from your posts. It is the definition which you seem to misunderstand.

Anyway, have you used a R300? If not, does that not make you guilty of "hearsay" as defined by yourself? By the way, I did visit the link you provided. Again, another unnecessary assumption on your part on my credibility and character....

I have the R210 which has the identical performance as the inks used and engine is identical. It does not have the card reader nor the b/w LCD, but performance-wise is no difference. Nice, smooth change in tactic there .

If you had visited the link, you would then have seen the quotes I had provided. And yet, you repeated the wrong info that without the additional preview colour LCD, you cannot print, the printing time for A4/letter size photos. It makes it even worse; you are ignoring facts from a reviewer which you agree is reputable (CNet) to suite your views . BTW, the speed of the prints was also corroborated from Steve's Digicam site.

You quoted experience from older models to compare to a yet-to-be-released printer (eg CX3100, 830 which are >1 years old; the 830 is no longer manufactured). If I had done the reverse, comparing say the R300/R200 to an old Canon printer like the BJC-10, what would you say? Compare experiences if you wish which are apple-to-apple. Even the R300 to iP4000 is unfair as the R300 has been out for >7 months (which can be used today) and when the iP4000 comes out (2 months later), around 9 months.

Plus, I did not in anyway suggest that "60% of the users not using Canon cameras should upgrade/replace with a Canon one..." If you read my reply carefully, you'd see that it was a reply to your comment that direct camera printing is "not possible on the Canon printer for those cameras without PictBridge." I'm just highlighting that there're 40% of the cameras in the market that WILL work on the Canon printers, since both non-PictBridge Canon cameras AND all PictBridge digital cameras can do so. Please do not be so hasty in jumping on my posts... :nono:

Ok, you said "guess the total numbers of such cameras that can work direct with the Canon printers is pretty significant, say 40% of the market". That means that the remaining 60% (an estimate derived from your 40% above) cannot print directly to the iP4000 since they are neither Canon nor with PictBridge. Since 60% cannot print, what should they do if they want to print direct? Buy another printer or buy a Canon camera, right? Since you are advocating to buy the iP4000... Tell me if I'm making a wrong assumption here.

Gooseberry: Laser works very well for monochrome text (I own one too), but some reports which includes charts, tables and photos do require colour.

You said "makes your bounded report more professional and less bulky" for the duplex function, which you gave the impression that you use that function for thick reports and then now, for charts. My advise: don't even bother with an inkjet for charts unless you are using thicker paper >150 GSM. If there is a lot of charts to be printed; a low-end color laser (around $1.2k) should be used by the company...

 

[Neo]

Hi Watcher,

I think you're using the word too loosely. Hearsay is when you hear from people who're not involved in the issue being discussed. When you hear from someone who's giving you feedback about the products they're using, it cannot be considered as hearsay anymore. I quote from the following online dictionary, hearsay is "unverified information heard or received from another; rumor". When you talk to several users and they tell you the problems of the product, and you consider it hearsay, you're probably not in the service industry... Feedback or complaint seems to be the more correct word to use here...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hearsay

There's no change in tatic... thanks for the compliments. though... I'm not that brilliant a debater... technically you did not use the R300 though... so if you're insisting on technicality, you're equally guilty of "hearsay"

And yes... if it makes you feel better, I was around when my friend was printing from his Epson printer. I wonder if that satisfy your definitation of "verification"... :think:

Show me exactly where I mentioned or even implied that you cannot print without the LCD panel. I'm flabbergasted that you keep insisting that I made such a comment. As for the printing speed, please read my comment that "From my experience with Epson's and Canon's photo printing speed, I believe the Canon will be a least twice as fast as the Epson equilvalent, and without compromise on the quality. Of course, I can't verify this until we see the iP4000 in action..." I already said this is MY own opinion, NOT a verifiable fact. And in fact, I even invited you to go see for yourself an Epson vs a Canon printer (similar class and similar age). Comex is around the corner... why not bring an image to print on both brands? I did... and the result is a 10 mins difference... not heresay...

I don't know what's your point here when you keep insisting on misconstruing my words. You said camera direct printing is "which is not possible on the Canon printer for those cameras without PictBridge."

And I replied, "the Canon printers can print from both PictBridge cameras and even older Canon cameras without PictBridge. So I guess the total numbers of such cameras that can work direct with the Canon printers is pretty significant, say 40% of the market?"

That was only to tell you that Canon printers can print not just from PictBridge cameras, but also the tens of thousands of Canon digital cameras that were purchased before PictBridge was available. And here you go, insisting that I'm arrogant and had the audacity to ask non-Canon camera users to upgrade to a Canon? Come on, if you made a mistake in reading my posts, let's just move on... don't make it worse by insisting on miscontruing my words... does anyone in this forum actually feel that my posts mean what Watcher is saying? Ok Watcher, I'll say it... you're making the wrong assumption - that's not what I'm saying.

The ip3000 and ip4000 all have the duplex function, and I doubt if they're meant to fight against colour lasers. They're more of home/SOHO printers, who just want to print a nice report for the school project and clients. Now, if for the same price of a normal printer today, you can get automatic duplex printing, paper cassette tray, CD printing, and PictBridge printing, isn't that a very good thing?

P.S: What's your point about thick reports and charts? Don't thick reports come with charts and graphs? :what:

 

[Watcher]

1) Printing with card reader:

"Show me exactly where I mentioned or even implied that you cannot print without the LCD panel. I'm flabbergasted that you keep insisting that I made such a comment."

Your posts:
#14: "meaning the card slot is next to useless without the user having to shell out extra bucks" for the optional LCD screen. Why is it "next to useless" if you still can print w/o the LCD screen?

#18: "the card direct print function is useless without the LCD monitor". Why useless? In fact, in this review, the reviewer said:
"The "Basic" mode (shown above) lets you quickly make 4x6" prints on Epson Photo Glossy Premium Paper by just selecting the desired image and pressing the Print button.

The "Advanced" mode gives you access to a multitude of printing options such as: Number of copies, paper size, paper type, Layout, Cropping, Filters (Sepia, B&W), Auto Correction, Small Image Enhancer, Contrast, Brightness, Saturation, Sharpness, Date/Time Stamping, Photo Info, Quality and Bi-Directional printing. It also gives you access to maintainenance functions for changing ink carts, head cleaning, nozzle check, paper feed, printhead alignment and LCD contrast." And no, he was not refering to the optional LCD monitor and does not need this option to use these functions.

Even gooseberry had the impression from reading your post that without the LCD monitor, you cannot print, as shown in his post #21, "I always thought that you could still use the card-print function without the lcd screen ? Is that not the case ?" So no, I'm not alone in misreading you.

2) Print speed:
"As for the printing speed, please read my comment that "From my experience with Epson's and Canon's photo printing speed, I believe the Canon will be a least twice as fast as the Epson equilvalent, and without compromise on the quality. Of course, I can't verify this until we see the iP4000 in action..." I already said this is MY own opinion, NOT a verifiable fact. "

That is fine, and I didn't mention anything until you said in post #16, "those users who waited 20 minutes for prints of the highest quality from their printers". When you give precise numbers like 20 mins then it is NOT an opinion. You again repeated it in post #18 with "I'm actually referring to A4 borderless photo printing. Some feedback from owners is that their E printers actually take about 20 mins to print an A4 borderless photo at the top resolution." I had mentioned (and had provided the link to the CNet review in #15) in post #17 (before your actual post #18) that the prints would be around 5 mins. Since the CNet review was provided prior to your initial post on the 20 min claim, that implies that you put in that fact after I had provided the review.

So, either you did read my link in #15 and choose to ignore it in #16 or you did not read until later.


3) Direct printing from cameras:

Fair, you said that "such cameras that can work direct with the Canon printers is pretty significant, say 40% of the market?" Now, tell me that what is "such cameras" that cannot work directly with Canon? 100%-40% = 60%, right?

Then tell me that if you are promoting the printer, and if the users have cameras that belong to these 60%, what are they going to do if they bought the said printer and have to do direct print?

4) Duplex printing.

My assertions: a) Thick reports 1) are not even printed duplex and b) may not come with charts. This is an opinion as well as an observation after working for a few years.

I do agree it is a good package, but Epson is not as pathetic as you make them out to be with expensive inks and 20 min prints.

 

[Neo]

1) "Next to useless" because you cannot see what you're printing, so you're printing blind. Again, you're assuming that my statement of "next to useless" as "impossible to print". I already clarified this statement in my posts 19 hours ago, and you're still harping on it... sigh... Your listing about all the things that the printer can do does nothing for your claims. These are direct print function buttons, nothing to do with the combination of card slot and LCD panel.

2) The statement about "I believe the Canon will be a least twice as fast as the Epson..." is followed by "Of course, I can't verify this until we see the iP4000 in action..." I think anyone here can see that it is MY opinion which I quantified immediately as unverifiable.

Now... the 20 mins that I stated, was NOT for the new Canon. It is for the current Epson printers that users own. Now that is a fact, or observation if you wish to call it so. Don't lump the two together and accuse me of saying otherwise.

I think Gooseberry has clarified that he jumped in mid-thread and didn't read all the posts... that explains pretty much why he might have the wrong impression, yes?

3) Look... this is probably the most ridiculous part of the debate here ok? You mentioned that the Canon printer can only print from a group of camera, and I clarify that it can actually print from a much bigger group of cameras. And that means that I'm arrogantly asking people to buy a Canon?

I shall NOT bother to comment on this... either someone else voice their opinion on this issue, or I shall let it rest. It seems pretty clear to me you're nitpicking on the little issues here.

4) Ok. We must be working in very different worlds. In my world (or rather ex-company - a MNC), many reports come with graphs and charts as well as accompanying photos. If your report just consist of nothing but text, I've got nothing to say. Other CSers can make their own judgement of whether they do print their reports or assignments in color...

So can we agree that the PIXMA printer is a good package for the money? And that Epson has its strengths? This discussion was never meant to slime Epson or Canon, and like I stated very early on, I just wanted a fair representation after you stated that the features are no big deal, or nothing special.

 

[zombiez]

Looks like a warzone here. :blah:

For a simple solution to duplex printing, please print odd pages, reload the paper and print even pages. Set your margins correctly and voila. Duplex.

Just a suggestion.

I only print report once in a while so I do it this way. For THICK report, use office laser printer for best result. Colour laser printer if charts needed. If includes pictures (which normally not so high res), print with the colour laser printer or blank it out to be filled up with the injet printer. Voila...Nice pictures and nice text.

If find it too trouble some, burn the report in a CD and submit. No need to print. Voila.... So cheap somemore. If too big use DVD writer. :bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie:

Dun :flame:

 

[Watcher]

I actually didn't want to reply but since zombiez started it again, here goes.

With both the iP4000 and R300 without the optional LCD screen, both have to use the cameras to view and select the appropriate pictures. With the iP4000, you can then connect either Canon cameras directly or cameras with PictBridge to print. For the R300, cameras with PictBridge can be used to print exactly the same. But for those without PictBridge, they can still take the memory card out of the camera, put it into the printer, select images to print by filename. This is the additional backward compatibility function that the R300 offers that the iP4000 cannot as it does not have memory slots. That means that on the iP4000, it can only print without a PC for 40% (given by Neo) of the cameras, while the R300 can support all cameras.

As for the printing time, Neo, I had mention on post #15 that the 5 mins came from the R300. You then threw in a 20min in #16. Tell me, where in your paragraph, page or even in the entire page did you mentioned that you are comparing it to anything but the R300. You said in post #18 that "feedback from owners is that their E printers actually take about 20 mins to print an A4 borderless photo at the top resolution." Even any one reading the entire page would not think that you are refering to a model is not R300. In fact, taking a number from anything but the R300 is deceptive, especially when all my comments and comparision has consistenly been benchmarked to the R300. Even now, I don't know which "current Epson printers" did the 20 min come from. :dunno:

Current printer? Which printer? I have a working BJC-10 at home. Can I then compare this printer with my R210 in speed and colour?

As in my world of working for MNCs, with a company formerly amongst the Big5 consultants, personally working in SG, US and AU, I have not seen a submitted report or even tender docs in duplex. Never. For charts, etc, MNC and Big 5 use laser printer. In any case, big companies will not have personal printers for every desk, thus the iP4000 is not the target for office works. Hence, the duplex features are not meant for big companies. Case close.

 

[zombiez]

I actually didn't want to reply but since zombiez started it again, here goes.

With both the iP4000 and R300 without the optional LCD screen, both have to use the cameras to view and select the appropriate pictures. With the iP4000, you can then connect either Canon cameras directly or cameras with PictBridge to print. For the R300, cameras with PictBridge can be used to print exactly the same. But for those without PictBridge, they can still take the memory card out of the camera, put it into the printer, select images to print by filename. This is the additional backward compatibility function that the R300 offers that the iP4000 cannot as it does not have memory slots. That means that on the iP4000, it can only print without a PC for 40% (given by Neo) of the cameras, while the R300 can support all cameras.

As for the printing time, Neo, I had mention on post #15 that the 5 mins came from the R300. You then threw in a 20min in #16. Tell me, where in your paragraph, page or even in the entire page did you mentioned that you are comparing it to anything but the R300. You said in post #18 that "feedback from owners is that their E printers actually take about 20 mins to print an A4 borderless photo at the top resolution." Even any one reading the entire page would not think that you are refering to a model is not R300. In fact, taking a number from anything but the R300 is deceptive, especially when all my comments and comparision has consistenly been benchmarked to the R300. Even now, I don't know which "current Epson printers" did the 20 min come from. :dunno:

Current printer? Which printer? I have a working BJC-10 at home. Can I then compare this printer with my R210 in speed and colour?

As in my world of working for MNCs, with a company formerly amongst the Big5 consultants, personally working in SG, US and AU, I have not seen a submitted report or even tender docs in duplex. Never. For charts, etc, MNC and Big 5 use laser printer. In any case, big companies will not have personal printers for every desk, thus the iP4000 is not the target for office works. Hence, the duplex features are not meant for big companies. Case close.

What did I start sia? Actually my reports are all one sided. Only when I printed all my programming codes when in uni printed both side to save paper.

 

[Neo]

I'll not comment on this post, since it's clear that Watcher's needs are different from mine. Perhaps I'll write to Fuji-Xerox and Canon to request that they make duplex copying functions as optional, since their biggest clients such as MNCs will never need duplex...

Case closed... I'll not respond anymore.

 

[nightpiper]

2) Where do you get these numbers? 20 mins? What size? The reviewers (CNet included) said 1 minute for a 4R print. For an A4 which is roughly 4x the size, you can take it as 5 mins.

not wanting to start anything just my brief encounter with R310. i've tested it in SL at skylet some weeks back. highest quality setting, 4R hi gloss premium epson paper, borderless is about 3mins. i was talking to the sales guy about it being slow down considerably with high quality settings.

reviews? never trusted them since 10yrs ago, & this is only for me not implying that it should apply to everyone. now only reads them for fun.

cheers. anyway, this thread was started with an intention to inform other CSers about new product launch, nothing more than that. :thumbsup:

 

[chaotic]

hey guys with those new models of printers. can the cf card reader on the printer be used to copy files to the computer?

 

[Watcher]

hey guys with those new models of printers. can the cf card reader on the printer be used to copy files to the computer?

Yes for the R310. The new range of Canon printers do not have any card slots if I'm not mistaken.

 

[chriszzz]

Wow...all this fuss over a bunch of printers. They are just printers, not perpetual-motion devices.

 

[Neo]

If you're talking about the current range of printers, the Canon i475D and i905D can be used to transfer images to the PC.