Can we put a stop to "looking for cheap wedding photographer"?

[TrailsofLife]

How cheap is cheap? in the end,they will choose best portfolio with the cheapest rates.

Why make less when you are worth more? Too clever?

 

[SnapSnap]

Why not have potential photographers show off their photos and have a recognised panel recommend the price they ought to charge? Will this help? Anyway, there will always be bottom feeders, there will always be people looking for el'cheapos...

 

[TrailsofLife]

Lastly, Clubsnap should be a place for producing and improving standard and quality and growth to potential and professional photographer rather than unhealthy competition that definitely degrade the value of photographers.

 

[student]

Hi Darren,

Understand the free market part. Just seems that CS has become a easy channel for such "hunters". Which will only lower the market value of photographers and most of the time, when the deal turn bad due to bad performance or quality, will definitely give CS a bad name in the future. In fact, its already begun. A friend of mine dare not hire photographers from a particular bridal shop because he heard they use hobbyist from CS.(I can't say names here)

While we can let this problem goes on, why not the community unite and stop this. For example, any CSer who spot a post to exploit photographers, can report the thread to moderators so moderators can react by removing the thread.

Last but not least, it is only through unity that we can uphold and improve the standard and market value of working photographers in Singapore. Dun forget CS started because afew of you united...and see how CS grew.

What Darren wrote is reasonable, although some debate might be possible there.

But what you wrote is totally "perplexing" to me! ( I am trying to be polite).

Now this friend of yours is totally sensible. If this friend of yours hires "photographerS", it suggest to me that he was not hiring photographers for his own wedding. Or maybe I am wrong. He may be hiring many photographers for his brothers, sisters, neices, nephews etc. In any case, if he is responsible for getting photographers for whoever else, he better get some competent ones. And getting hobbyists is certainly not a sensible proposition! So he is right to not hire photographers from the bridal shop who "hires" hobbyists from CS!

But what has this got to do with someone with a budget who ask CS for someone who is willing to do a wedding for some very low fees?

How many photographers here ask camera shops to sell equipments at a lower price than what they quote? Are photographers here being exploitative of camera shops? Do not have double standards.

And what are you talking about standards? Who measure standards? So a higher price will immediately make your photographs of better standards?

This whole issue has nothing to do with "unity".

This whole issue has to do with supply and demand.

What is sensible is to give people a rough idea of the cost of covering a wedding - a cost appropriate to a "competent" wedding photographer (Whatever that word competence means - I have honestly seen some very mediocre images here from people who do weddings - I would not use them even they pay me!)

What may be sensible is to give a list of CS members who have been shown to be competent for them to "chose", with a range of expected fees. And let the client and photographers make further negotiations. How CS chose this list is another matter.

What is also sensible is to let the potential client know that with a lower fees, he/she is not assured of a competent (although some hobbyists can be very good!) photographer.

What is sensible is to educate fellow photographers of the pitfalls of the business of wedding photography. And if these fellow photographers chose to accept very low fees, so be it! They had been forwarned. And the client had been forwarned!

 

[TrailsofLife]

Why not have potential photographers show off their photos and have a recognised panel recommend the price they ought to charge? Will this help? ...

Potential photographers should do their own research and judge their own quality, the final outcome only shows how confident the photographers are.

Anyway, there will always be bottom feeders, there will always be people looking for el'cheapos...

Yes, but CS shouldn't be THE PLACE for such hunters, any other place will not and should not be CS's problem.

 

[TrailsofLife]

Gotta agree. The definition of cheap will make it very difficult to enforce this. Some photogs and I have talked about this before but could not come up with a common pricing standard that was appreciable to anyone.

For example, we raised the issue on having a base $200/hr rate as the base market rate, but for the high end photogs, $2K for a 10 hr wedding day is so low that the base price makes no difference to them and there was little incentive for them to participate or group together as an organization. For the emerging photogs, the 2k mark is so high that it would be really difficult to even start out. So no matter what rates we choose we cannot cater to the diverse market.

What i've come to find is that when a photog starts low, it's not normally because they want to start low but because they lack business education. As such several photogs such as Gilbertchua have been really working hard educating new photogrpahers on the importance running the wedding photography as a business and I am in the midst of putting together some Business of Wedding Photography seminars for next year with some guests speakers etc, and hopefully this will help to lift the market instead.

Hi Kuang,

After exchanging afew PMs and post with Gilbert, I recalculate and rework the cost. And understand what Gibert meant now.

 

[student]

What i've come to find is that when a photog starts low, it's not normally because they want to start low but because they lack business education. As such several photogs such as Gilbertchua have been really working hard educating new photogrpahers on the importance running the wedding photography as a business and I am in the midst of putting together some Business of Wedding Photography seminars for next year with some guests speakers etc, and hopefully this will help to lift the market instead.

What you said here is very reasonable.

Your premise and assumption is that these photogs want to do it as a business.

This may not be the case.

There will always be those hobbyists who have no interest to do it as a business, but would be happy to have something for his effort and "fun".

 

[SnapSnap]

Potential photographers should do their own research and judge their own quality, the final outcome only shows how confident the photographers are.

If the potential photographer does his research and judge that he is worth $150 per AD wedding, you are back to square one. Why not have someone tell them what they are really worth?

 

[TrailsofLife]

If the potential photographer does his research and judge that he is worth $150 per AD wedding, you are back to square one. Why not have someone tell them what they are really worth?

ha ha...shows he insecure he is with his products....

 

[TrailsofLife]

Quite a few people misunderstand this thread, I'm trying to request for a solution if possible propose one for CS admin and mods, not really looking for a discussion. Here is feedback forum, not kopitiam.

 

[TrailsofLife]

What Darren wrote is reasonable, although some debate might be possible there.

But what you wrote is totally "perplexing" to me! ( I am trying to be polite).

Now this friend of yours is totally sensible. If this friend of yours hires "photographerS", it suggest to me that he was not hiring photographers for his own wedding. Or maybe I am wrong. He may be hiring many photographers for his brothers, sisters, neices, nephews etc. In any case, if he is responsible for getting photographers for whoever else, he better get some competent ones. And getting hobbyists is certainly not a sensible proposition! So he is right to not hire photographers from the bridal shop who "hires" hobbyists from CS!

But what has this got to do with someone with a budget who ask CS for someone who is willing to do a wedding for some very low fees?

How many photographers here ask camera shops to sell equipments at a lower price than what they quote? Are photographers here being exploitative of camera shops? Do not have double standards.

And what are you talking about standards? Who measure standards? So a higher price will immediately make your photographs of better standards?

This whole issue has nothing to do with "unity".

This whole issue has to do with supply and demand.

What is sensible is to give people a rough idea of the cost of covering a wedding - a cost appropriate to a "competent" wedding photographer (Whatever that word competence means - I have honestly seen some very mediocre images here from people who do weddings - I would not use them even they pay me!)

What may be sensible is to give a list of CS members who have been shown to be competent for them to "chose", with a range of expected fees. And let the client and photographers make further negotiations. How CS chose this list is another matter.

What is also sensible is to let the potential client know that with a lower fees, he/she is not assured of a competent (although some hobbyists can be very good!) photographer.

What is sensible is to educate fellow photographers of the pitfalls of the business of wedding photography. And if these fellow photographers chose to accept very low fees, so be it! They had been forwarned. And the client had been forwarned!

Student, I didn't ask for a discussion or feedback. I am trying to feedback to CS about this problem here.

On a personal note, please don't come into any of my thread here in CS, just like I dun go into your postings anymore.

 

[Morphis]

Quite a few people misunderstand this thread, I'm trying to request for a solution if possible propose one for CS admin and mods, not really looking for a discussion. Here is feedback forum, not kopitiam.

Hi Max,
Tats da basic economical magic of demand & supply in business any business.

As much as ya wish to push da industry on a different platform but da society does not allow ya to.

Believe da camera manufactures or retailers would luv to have a say on da pricing on new or used.

IMHO evry 'career' fotografers man-hour cost is very different. As student has stated earlier, some of them are shootin it out of fun.
Are we to issue a license to own a camera of any specific fps or meg and state da rules of engagement?

Technology and marginal cost of production of ya tool of trade have changed da business.

As much as we wish but to bite da bullet and put our skill on different a different platform.

 

[TrailsofLife]

Hi Max,
Tats da basic economical magic of demand & supply in business any business.

As much as ya wish to push da industry on a different platform but da society does not allow ya to.

Believe da camera manufactures or retailers would luv to have a say on da pricing on new or used.

IMHO evry 'career' fotografers man-hour cost is very different. As student has stated earlier, some of them are shootin it out of fun.
Are we to issue a license to own a camera of any specific fps or meg and state da rules of engagement?

Technology and marginal cost of production of ya tool of trade have changed da business.

As much as we wish but to bite da bullet and put our skill on different a different platform.

I believe if there's will, there's a way. I just hope CS dun become a hunting ground for cheap photographer. If you notice, the "budget" is always getting lower for such hunters. All this just give CS a bad name.

 

[TrailsofLife]

I think I have made my point and Darren had replied. To prevent unneccessary discussion, I'll close this thread now.

Thanks for all the feedback, though that not what I was looking for...:bsmilie: