Can organiser dissappear with our ca$h?

[contaxable]

Hi CSer,

I had been troubled by an organiser of late. I paid for a course in full ($400) 4 months back. Though the course cost $500, he gave me a $100 discount since I paid up front and seemed sincere to him. I applied leave and waited anxiously for it to come. It was postponed, I reapplied leave, then it got postponed again.

It was a course which promised a reputable overseas instructor named Tobias from Switzerland with one or two Swiss model(s). Excuses after excuses, but in the end, the workshop did not happen.

He blamed a group of "5" CSer who played him out and hence the workshop had to be cancelled and he lost money because of the untrustworthy CSer. He said these CSer threatened to name him on Clubsnap and so he quickly refunded them. I asked him for CS nick names, but he did not have the guts to name any for me to verify.

Then, conviently, one month ago, I was automatically placed on another workshop with assumption I would agree. OK, I waited for the workshop for another month to happen. BTW i had no clue who the new instructor was and his credential weren't spelt out clearly either. Its just MK something.

I know this is might seem tough luck, but hey, I trusted him, gave him cash, but in return, he hardly returned my calls and messages and there was no definite answer when a worshop would take place.

And this evening, all his thread are gone. The vanishing?

Well, I hope this thread helps foks out here to know how silly to trust with full payment in advance. I am not against it, but some credibility checks should have been done. For eg, the organiser I am talking about does not even disclose/use his real name and his HP# keeps changing every month.

Two days back, I asked him for refund. As usual, no reply, very busy, cant talk, get back soon, and all the bull crap.

Well, sorry for the short interruption, but I really hope to highlight this out for one particular organiser. I have no problem with all other organisers so far though.

Happy shooting anyway!

 

[zaxh81]

well,this type of thing do happens sometime.
Feel so angry with the organiser over hearing this.:angry:
Is he a regular here?

 

[lobinhoot]

Hmm... I emphatise with you, dude. Sometimes, it doesn't pay to trust others so much. Cheer up! Look out for the more reputable organisers next time.

 

[contaxable]

Yes, regular, and he organised several OSM shoots for CS. A very popular figure indeed. I am not out here to wage war, but, it was my hard earned cash.

For $400, I could go upgrade my gear or join a few more shoots. I am a newbie in Clubsnap and yes, was impressed how fun joining CS for outings and such. I dont like politics and am not trying to create any. I just hope to inform CSer and to gather feedback if some others had been taken for a ride by him as well.

 

[simon80]

not say i want to say ..
me also kena before ............. once bitten twice shy
:thumbsd:

 

[eow]

Yes, regular, and he organised several OSM shoots for CS. A very popular figure indeed. I am not out here to wage war, but, it was my hard earned cash.

For $400, I could go upgrade my gear or join a few more shoots. I am a newbie in Clubsnap and yes, was impressed how fun joining CS for outings and such. I dont like politics and am not trying to create any. I just hope to inform CSer and to gather feedback if some others had been taken for a ride by him as well.

hmmm think i heard similar cases from my friends.
some get their money back:thumbsup: ..some lppl:thumbsd: ....what to do?
treat it as lesson learnt...
perhap he had his difficulties too? should press on getting yr money back...

 

[Bobman]

To Mr Contaxable and the rest. I am still here. You are referring to me, Bobman. I am what I am, will never run away even though I lost few tickets. What you had mentioned in your first post are abit too much. I can understand that if one cannot get back especially his money, this type of thread will appear.

Tobias case, there are some who booked and cancelled. Because of this the agent came here last week on my expense (His ticket money).

He blamed a group of "5" CSer who played him out and hence the workshop had to be cancelled and he lost money because of the untrustworthy CSer. He said these CSer threatened to name him on Clubsnap and so he quickly refunded them. I asked him for CS nick names, but he did not have the guts to name any for me to verify.

I don't blame these people but I just feel played out and no point naming names in the forum afterall we are gentlemen and I deal things privately if it is personal matter. I don't use forum as a battle place or debt collecting place. If I have to resort in posting in forum to deal with my personal problems, I will very much ashame because this shows people that I can't deal with my problems personally.

What about guts or no guts, I would not fall for that and who these CSer threatedned to name me on CS when you already name here, what makes it so different for them to name me or you to name me. This is not the first time people threatened me, some even threatened to ruin my business or with law suits.

Then, conviently, one month ago, I was automatically placed on another workshop with assumption I would agree. OK, I waited for the workshop for another month to happen. BTW i had no clue who the new instructor was and his credential weren't spelt out clearly either. Its just MK something.

I know this is might seem tough luck, but hey, I trusted him, gave him cash, but in return, he hardly returned my calls and messages and there was no definite answer when a worshop would take place.

When I asked you whether you are interested to join this workshop and said ok with it as long as it is a good and able to learn something from him. I gave you his website to see and decide and I am glad that you join however, i did mention to you that the workshop can only start when the desireable participants are reached, you agreed and you ask me to update you with the date.

Please do not say that I did not return any call. I call each of the participants to update of the schedule, either postponement or cancellation. We agreed that as long as the number is reached we will start.

And this evening, all his thread are gone. The vanishing?

As explained below. The sticky is based on quarterly subscription and mine just expired and I do not intend to renew at the moment.

Well, I hope this thread helps foks out here to know how silly to trust with full payment in advance. I am not against it, but some credibility checks should have been done. For eg, the organiser I am talking about does not even disclose/use his real name and his HP# keeps changing every month.

Similarly, I don't know your real name and how many organisers here use real name. MY hp# keeps changing every month. Wrong, only in December till now. But did I not update you about my change? Did I not post in CS about my change in number? The other main point has already mentioned below.


Two days back, I asked him for refund. As usual, no reply, very busy, cant talk, get back soon, and all the bull crap.

Well, sorry for the short interruption, but I really hope to highlight this out for one particular organiser. I have no problem with all other organisers so far though.

2 days back I was shooting wedding and do you expect me to talk to you and I told you I will call back once my things are over.

Do you have any problem when you came for my $60 model shoot? Of cos not, here we talk about few thousand dollars and if the number cannot be attained I will be losing alot not just few tens of dollars. You should know that the rates I am offering is so low which can be compared to local models.

I try to lower the cost so that many could enjoy but just because the number could not be reached and need to postpone you treat me like a cheat? You are a biz man and you know how biz is run and conducted.

I can understand why you post this thread, you are afraid you are unable to get back your money. Well if every creditors think the same way, forums will be used as debt collecting place.


================= Above are some of the things I need to clarify =================


Let me further brief you guys something:

1. The threads and sticky were deleted because of my due date is over and I don't wish to renew. The shoots which were supposed to be were postponed or cancelled. The participants have been briefed.

2. However the courses with Martin Kinkal, I don't think I can bring them in. I rather lose 2 airtickets than when they are here I have to pay them 10 days of stay and 5 days of workshop.

3. No doubt my shoots failed, I lost couple of thousands but I will never run away. Now I am working hard now to repay back to participants slowly. Some get refund 100 or more per week at a time. I am not rich like some who earn 5 figures and some who know me that I lost in my biz few years back and all my savings GONE!

4. So now, what do you guys think. I have few thousands overstanding, and I am no wonder doing the OSM Shoots. I am doing a day job and freelancing wedding to pay back. Do you have any other solutions for me??? Can I work in your company for 1 month without pay????

5. A little bit of info here. You think I change my line to avoid people? No because in December, I had 2 choices to make, either to pay my bills which amount to few hundreds because of overseas calls or to get a OSM in to earn some money to get things done. I challenged the latter, well bcos of raining sessions, quite a number of people back out. It happened sometimes, this is biz......

6. So please tell me what can I do??? What is your suggestion??? By writing here can we solve any problem??? I am told you that I will work on it if it really can fill the slots by this month, I have to work on refunding you guys back.

7. You kept asking me who backed out the shoots, again I am no traitors. Becos those backed out are my problems, my biz and its the way it was conducted. I would never never speak out in the forum, I just know myself.

8. Again, can anyone provide me with a solution besides asking me to get a job which I am now. Currently doing a regular and a freelance job, trying to cope with my current situations.

I am not a good fiancial planner and I failed very badly. Poverity is no crime, certainly I am not ashame in admitting now I am broke.

Shall I list down those who signed up for the shoots and let you guys help me to how I can repay them back.

 

[MoodsMM]

that is way too much money to pay for passion's sake.. :sweat:

 

[eow]

btw u mean he abscond rite?
if he still around here..perhap if u treat him nicely and ask him out for a cup of coffee..and willingly to settle for installments payment...it might help to alleviate his financial
prb...so that he can pay u back...it akin to killing two osm with a cup of coffee.
try it out first....must gave people chance

 

[Bobman]

not say i want to say ..
me also kena before ............. once bitten twice shy
:thumbsd:

Simon80, your case is you last minute couldn't make it to the shoot aka back out and you asked for refund. If I am so bad in your eyes, you shouldn't ask me whether I have any shoots or asking me whether you can go for the pre wedding shoots.

 

[contaxable]

Thanks guys for your concerns. He called me at 1233am, but I cant be talking to him and waking up my kids, wife and maid should the conversation get off track.

Yes, it was a lesson learned.

I know he had difficulties and so I gave him grace. I even brought him out for makan to see if things can work out for the better.

Maybe he will return me the cash soon. Maybe he is mad right now. Maybe he dont even know how frustrated I had been hoping for a course to take place. Maybe he dont know how many offdays/leave days I burnt due to perpectually changing course dates. Maybe he thought mine was easy money.

I join reputable schools to learn and occassional freelance workshops. Go or no go, it's often guaranteed.

But to wait 4mths without news, to have $400 sunk in, to burnt so much off days and leaves are really, really :bheart: .

 

[eow]

Thanks guys for your concerns. He called me at 1233am, but I cant be talking to him and waking up my kids, wife and maid should the conversation get off track.

Yes, it was a lesson learned.

I know he had difficulties and so I gave him grace. I even brought him out for makan to see if things can work out for the better.

Maybe he will return me the cash soon. Maybe he is mad right now. Maybe he dont even know how frustrated I had been hoping for a course to take place. Maybe he dont know how many offdays/leave days I burnt due to perpectually changing course dates. Maybe he thought mine was easy money.

I join reputable schools to learn and occassional freelance workshops. Go or no go, it's often guaranteed.

But to wait 4mths without news, to have $400 sunk in, to burnt so much off days and leaves are really, really :bheart: .

Bro i feel for u :cry:
when it came to money ...such sensitive issue....it hard not to get upset...

 

[Bobman]

Bro i feel for u :cry:
when it came to money ...such sensitive issue....it hard not to get upset...

No one is. Imagine someone signed up all your 6 slots and paid you. Then last minute they said they can't make it, will you refund them or forfiet them???? And your model is paid and no refund. I guess many will feel sorry for u too.....

 

[contaxable]

To Mr Contaxable and the rest. I am still here. You are referring to me, Bobman. I am what I am, will never run away even though I lost few tickets. Let me brief you guys something:

1. The threads and sticky were deleted because of my due date is over and I don't wish to renew. The shoots which were supposed to be were postponed or cancelled. The participants have been briefed.

2. However the courses with Martin Kinkal, I don't think I can bring them in. I rather lose 2 airtickets than when they are here I have to pay them 10 days of stay and 5 days of workshop.

3. No doubt my shoots failed, I lost couple of thousands but I will never run away. Now I am working hard now to repay back to participants slowly. Some get refund 100 or more per week at a time. I am not rich like some who earn 5 figures and some who know me that I lost in my biz few years back and all my savings GONE!

4. So now, what do you guys think. I have few thousands overstanding, and I am no wonder doing the OSM Shoots. I am doing a day job and freelancing wedding to pay back. Do you have any other solutions for me??? Can I work in your company for 1 month without pay????

5. A little bit of info here. You think I change my line to avoid people? No because in December, I had 2 choices to make, either to pay my bills which amount to few hundreds because of overseas calls or to get a OSM in to earn some money to get things done. I challenged the latter, well bcos of raining sessions, quite a number of people back out. It happened sometimes, this is biz......

6. So please tell me what can I do??? What is your suggestion??? By writing here can we solve any problem??? I am told you that I will work on it if it really can fill the slots by this month, I have to work on refunding you guys back.

7. You kept asking me who backed out the shoots, again I am no traitors. Becos those backed out are my problems, my biz and its the way it was conducted. I would never never speak out in the forum, I just know myself.

8. Again, can anyone provide me with a solution besides asking me to get a job which I am now. Currently doing a regular and a freelance job, trying to cope with my current situations.

I am not a good fiancial planner and I failed very badly. Poverity is no crime, certainly I am not ashame in admitting now I am broke.

Shall I list down those who signed up for the shoots and let you guys help me to how I can repay them back.

Thanks Bobman for stepping in to clear the air a little. But if you had been truthful to me and tell me what is really happening, I might just wait abit longer. But to hang me in the air and hope I can understand your thoughts, it's really hard for me to cope. And btw, i just burned another off day this weekend as I exchanged it with my colleague since I expected the MK course to take place. If not of this thread, I dont even know its cancelled. Do you understand my frustrations now?

I help run a critical role for an operation. To free up off days and keep changing my abscence like a kaleidoscope will mess up my work, my life and my free time.

You are a business man and you do wedding portfolios. How would your client like it if you ask them to change their weding dates for marriage 12 times in 4 months?

 

[Bobman]

Thanks Bobman for stepping in to clear the air a little. But if you had been truthful to me and tell me what is really happening, I might just wait abit longer. But to hang me in the air and hope I can understand your thoughts, it's really hard for me to cope. And btw, i just burned another off day this weekend as I exchanged it with my colleague since I expected the MK course to take place. If not of this thread, I dont even know its cancelled. Do you understand my frustrations now?

I help run a critical role for an operation. To free up off days and keep changing my abscence like a kaleidoscope will mess up my work, my life and my free time.

You are a business man and you do wedding portfolios. How would your client like it if you ask them to change their weding dates for marriage 12 times in 4 months?

I have been truthful to you all along and telling you my problems especially you are Winston's friend. You can ask him everytime when there is shoot, I will ask him whether he is free to shoot cause he has booked one sesssion with me and still outstanding due to his many overseas trips.

You already knew that I was doing wedding on weekend and yesterday that I will called you once I finished my stuff. Anyway, I don't blame you, its your money you have your rights to do what you think is best for you.

If I am a good biz man, I won't be stupid to bring in OSM NUDE at this low rates, I won't be wasting my time and money and effort to make the NUDE Shoot possible, to negotiate overseas photographers to conduct workshops here.

Maybe my luck wasn't good enough, maybe other organisers are capable in doing that. Maybe I should think to become a better businessman now.

Your example is not a good one. Wedding couple is paying me and I am not paying them. They will change date and not me.

 

[contaxable]

Like I said, bob, it's not just about money. It's how frustrated I get only to find out my course is postponed with a very short notice everytime. Oh yes, and my gear were all ready as well, only to put them back into the dry caby when your notice to cancel was like less than 12hrs!

Money, we can always earn back. But doing business starts with a basic set of philosophy. Promtpness in delivery, quality, trust and faithfullness are all basic elements. I coach friends on how to run profitable brick and motar retail businesses (non-MLM) and they make money, but with hardwork and holding steadfastly on their core business philosophy.

I wish you well, but do remember the promise.

Rgds

 

[simon80]

Simon80, your case is you last minute couldn't make it to the shoot and you asked for refund. If I am so bad in your eyes, you shouldn't ask me whether I have any shoots or asking me whether you can go for the pre wedding shoots.

sigh ..
i think u must be really blur or mix up liew
cfm not LAST min from my side

Since there some miscomm or unhappy events ..
i neber join your workshop or OSM shoot

But then since others give me a benefit of doubt
and ur venturing into wedding, I try again ..

And no lah .. u are not 100% bad. 20% only
cos u still got return me $ mah .. :heart:

 

[Bobman]

Money, we can always earn back. But doing business starts with a basic set of philosophy. Promtpness in delivery, quality, trust and faithfullness are all basic elements. I coach friends on how to run profitable brick and motar retail businesses (non-MLM) and they make money, but with hardwork and holding steadfastly on their core business philosophy.

I wish you well, but do remember the promise.

Rgds

Yes that I must agreed that money lost can earn back. Promptpness in delivery depends on the participations number that's why I have a clause; "The organiser reserves the rights to postpone/cancel the shoot if the number of participants are not reached."

So that is an agreement when you signed up with me. I can postpone or cancel but I wont play cheat and force to impose if those wish to back out...

Quality I always believe in that and no one can doubt my models of quality.

Trust and Faithfulness, not for me to say.

As I said, I will still keep my promises to pay back those who asked for it but I have to be fair to all. I have only this much to pay back at this moment and therefore, all will have a fair share.

 

[contaxable]

Bob,

Its is hard for me to solve your problem at this point. I do not know the conversations (and promises) that transpired between you, the contact point and the attendees.

If you calculated it to be profitable or at least break even, go ahead and and get them in. It's your choice, really. As a businessman, the choices are on your own hands.

But at this point, I have lost my interest on your workshop(s) and shoots. It only reminds me how painful it was waiting for it only to know it vaporised each time.

 

[Bobman]

Bob,

Its is hard for me to solve your problem at this point. I do not know the conversations (and promises) that transpired between you, the contact point and the attendees.

If you calculated it to be profitable or at least break even, go ahead and and get them in. It's your choice, really. As a businessman, the choices are on your own hands.

But at this point, I have lost my interest on your workshop(s) and shoots. It only reminds me how painful it was waiting for it only to know it vaporised each time.

Anyway, it doesn't matter and you will get your money back. But as I mentioned earlier, I will be distributing evenly unless you guys have a better solutions for me.

I am prepared to lose that air ticket money .

In conclusion, I understand that it is better to cater for a small group of people who are willing to pay higher rate to shoot the model, this way it is easily acheiveable rather then cater for larger group at lower rates which sometimes it is not able to reach the desireable participants.

I may owe some of you guys money from the shoots you paid but I never cheat any of you single cent. All loses are bore my me alone and you still get back every single cent, only at slower pace.