Caffenol Developing = EPIC FAILURE <-- Help Please.

[lordpain]

Hi all,

This is the first time I'm trying caffenol developing, and I'm afraid I've met with an epic failure and I do not know where to continue. Here is what I did:

1) I prepared 325ml of water in my measuring jug. Added 2 teaspoon of Vanish Power O2 Intelligence and stirred till almost everything was dissolved. (I couldn't find pure sodium carbonate in the supermarkets. I've been to quite a few and this is the closest thing I could get.) The ingredients stated Sodium Carbonate Peroxyhydrate. Here is a picture of the product:

2) Then I added 4 tsp of Nescafe Deluxe (Not the best tasting coffee, but the cheapest.) and stirred till everything is dissolved. The solution looked really yucky and smelt like rotten coffee. I let it stand to let the microbubbles out for 10 minutes. Picture of the coffee:

3) I poured in to my developing tank an did 30 secs worth of inversions. Then I let it stand for an hour. The film used was Lucky SHD 100 shot at ISO 200. (This film was intended to be pushed in D76 or HC110, but i decided to take a bet. A very bad choice)

4) Normal water stop rinse, and then soak in fix for 10 minutes.

5) Results: A clear roll of film (not even markings). For those who don't know what has happened there, there's only one reason. The developer didn't work. Now my questions to chemists and fellow photographers is a huge WHY.

Here are the reasons I suspect that caused this catastrophe:

1) I used tap water instead of distilled water. Tap water contains rubbish that reacts with my developer to render it useless.

2) The recipe for caffenol dev states I need SODIUM CARBONATE. The closest thing was Vanish Power O2, which contained Sodium Carbonate Peroxyhydrate.

*I did a google search on Sodium Carbonate Peroxyhydrate. It says that it dissolves in water to form sodium carbonate and hyrdogen peroxide. Could it be the cause of the hydrogen peroxide acting as a bleach that stripped off my emulsion?*

3) The coffee powder. Google search also had tell me about the failures of others on caffenol. One reason was because they use ground coffee beans or ready made coffee from the machine. These were suspected not to have enough caffine, thus not developing. So, I am suspecting this cheap coffee is not only bad to drink but also bad to develop. Wasted my 6 dollars...

Could anyone help me with this?

TIA,

Kai

 

[raytoei]

Reason 1 isn't the case.

Reason 2 & 3 more likely.

based on what i am reading, is this the product ?
http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000V9KW5I?tag=betteraddons-20

or this:

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B0029XNTEU?tag=betteraddons-20

hmmmm. How long was your agitation ?

 

[nstclicks]

#2. The sodium carbonate peroxyhdrate acts as an oxidiser, which is the opposite of what we are trying to do (Reduce the silver ions to silver metal). In addition, the sodium carbonate is intended to be buffer to control the pH of the solution. The stain remover almost certainly won't have the desired properties.

http://photo.net/film-and-processing-forum/00U0HB
http://caffenol.blogspot.com/2010/03/soda-myth-and-truth_07.html

 

[lordpain]

Thank you for your prompt reply raytoei. Alot of people have been recommending to get arm and hammer washing soda, which unfortunately is not available in Singapore. My agitation was 30 seconds, then it was left to stand for 1 hour. My thinking is that even without agitation, the frame markings should at least come out, but didn't.

 

[proteonXPR]

the peroxide killed your film.

you could have considered baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)

 

[lordpain]

#2. The sodium carbonate peroxyhdrate acts as an oxidiser, which is the opposite of what we are trying to do (Reduce the silver ions to silver metal). In addition, the sodium carbonate is intended to be buffer to control the pH of the solution. The stain remover almost certainly won't have the desired properties.

http://photo.net/film-and-processing-forum/00U0HB
http://caffenol.blogspot.com/2010/03/soda-myth-and-truth_07.html

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't study chemistry, but I guess my guess was correct. Any idea where could I have fond sodium carbonate in household products?

the peroxide killed your film.

you could have considered baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)

I too believe that the peroxide killed my film. But have you developed your own film using caffenol? I'm sure baking soda will not work as it is not recommended in other websites.

 

[proteonXPR]

bicarbonate has a proton, you can consider titrating it to the pH you need for buffering. its like making a phosphate buffer, it doesnt matter if you make it from sodium phosphate, disodium monophosphate or sodium diphosphate as long as you get the pH right, the composition of buffering ions will be the same.

i have pure chemicals as i work in a lab myself, but if you need derivatives of sodium carbonate, you can either look for antacids, or some fruit salt variation

 

[aquilaa]

Based on the link below, you can get sodium carbonate Na2CO3 (washing soda) from
Cold Storage or Mustafa. I am not sure sodium carbonate is available in
these stores.

http://www.mycarforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2636700&st=0

Tea leaves contain caffeine too, is that possible using tea leaves in the
film development.

 

[raytoei]

lordpain:

unfortunately i am in PK, please continue to experiment with this. I am most interested to find out the results.

raytoei

 

[zenesh]

you can bake sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to get sodium carbonate too. But buying it would probably be easier.


Do keep at it. I am interested too in the results.



I do hear from my parents that there used to a row of chemical supply shops in singapore. Think you can get the pure stuff from them. Do not think there is any restriction for sodium carbonate.

 

[lordpain]

bicarbonate has a proton, you can consider titrating it to the pH you need for buffering. its like making a phosphate buffer, it doesnt matter if you make it from sodium phosphate, disodium monophosphate or sodium diphosphate as long as you get the pH right, the composition of buffering ions will be the same.

i have pure chemicals as i work in a lab myself, but if you need derivatives of sodium carbonate, you can either look for antacids, or some fruit salt variation

I see, so in other words, I could use any other strong base for this thing to work?

Based on the link below, you can get sodium carbonate Na2CO3 (washing soda) from
Cold Storage or Mustafa. I am not sure sodium carbonate is available in
these stores.

http://www.mycarforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2636700&st=0

Tea leaves contain caffeine too, is that possible using tea leaves in the
film development.

That's a great find aquilaa. So far, I've been to Cold Storage, NTUC, and Giant and I cannot find washing soda. Maybe I'll try Mustafa soon.

lordpain:

unfortunately i am in PK, please continue to experiment with this. I am most interested to find out the results.

raytoei

Hmm, in PK still surfng clubsnap eh? See you soon then. I have already dumped the failure roll. Now shooting second roll to test. Will show u results when you're back.

you can bake sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to get sodium carbonate too. But buying it would probably be easier.


Do keep at it. I am interested too in the results.



I do hear from my parents that there used to a row of chemical supply shops in singapore. Think you can get the pure stuff from them. Do not think there is any restriction for sodium carbonate.

Ya, I do have some contacts of chemical supply shops. I believe sodium carbonate is safe to sell too.

 

[raytoei]

I think i had better lay off buying any chemicals soon. Think about it:

Guy goes to and fro PK +
Snapping pictures everywhere +
Buying chemicals

:bigeyes:

raytoei

 

[zenesh]

Should be fine actually, the more easily used chemicals to make explosives have been made to be a controlled item. So even in the lab, I have to log my usage of the chemicals

just asking, where is PK?


Lordpain, can pm me the chemical supplies contacts?

 

[nstclicks]

I think i had better lay off buying any chemicals soon. Think about it:

Guy goes to and fro PK +
Snapping pictures everywhere +
Buying chemicals

:bigeyes:

raytoei

please lah - no wonder Singaporeans lose out to FT all the time if they limit their imaginations out of fear ! Every time you fill a car's petrol tank, you're dealing with something far more flamamable and dangerous.

 

[raytoei]

hahah.

Well.... too bad my rolls are with me and I can't develop now. Will be back by Fri evening.

Everybody has a mustache or beard.

I bet you neber see women beggers in bukkas...

Felix
Karachi, PK

 

[lordpain]

MAJOR UPDATE:

I have finally gotten the Arm and Hammer Washing Soda. Its pretty old and all the crystals have been hardened to rock due to moisture, but I'm giving it a try. I will post the results once I have shot my film and developed it. Expect results this weekend.

And a very BIG thanks for all that chipped in in helping me. Seriously, couldn't have done it without the support of you guys. Wanted to give up initially.

Cheers.

 

[lordpain]

Should be fine actually, the more easily used chemicals to make explosives have been made to be a controlled item. So even in the lab, I have to log my usage of the chemicals

just asking, where is PK?


Lordpain, can pm me the chemical supplies contacts?

I got this contact from a lab technician:

FAIR-DEAL SCIENTIFIC CO.
112, EAST COAST RD #02-35
KATONG MALL S428802

TEL: 63442113

 

[nstclicks]

If it's all caked up it probably has quite a lot of moisture inside it http://www.flickr.com/groups/53495661@N00/discuss/72157623545233076/ so you'll have to use more than what the recipe says if the recipe is based on anhydrous (no water of hydration) sodium carbonate. Let us know how it works out. I had been tempted to try caffenol before but was put off by the hassle.

 

[Celebring]

KATONG MALL

This is certainly more convenient than expected. Thought you'd find them in Tuas. Anyone called?

Am interested to know if it's cheap enough to buy raw chemicals and mix D76-type developers fresh rather than keeping the stock solution for a months on end.

I have liquid concentrates too (HC-110 and Rodinal), but D76 is a personal preference.

 

[lordpain]

I doubt its possible to get the chemicals from them just 'off the shelves'. A lot of the chemicals used in photography require a poisons permit from NEA. I am in the midst of trying to get one. Even when one gets one, a call to them states that sodium sulphite, also known as hypo clear, is 38 dollars a kilo.