C/N model comparisons : OT Spilt from : Official D70 specs are out!

[digit]

I have a feeling that the D70 with its high spec and low price is more of a market share grabbing practise than as a direct result of lower cost of manufacturing. This reminds me of Dell Computer trying to secure market share by selling their PCs for very narrow profit margin to be the top PC manufacturer. I also recall a quote from Thom Hogan ...

"Any company that ends 2004 with less of a market share than Nikon, the weakest of the big 5, is likely to have a smaller market share in 2005, and even smaller one in 2006, and possibly be out of the business by 2007. The only way out of that would be to produce something that no one else can. The market growth rates for digital cameras won't hold for much longer, and thus market share is about to become very, very important"

The 1D Mark II is by no means just a pixel-bumped refreshed 1D. Preliminary reports by beta testers revealed excellent ISO800 images and relatively clean ISO1600 performance plus increased Dynamic Range to boot. The achilles' heels of Canon being their flash system have also got improvement in the form of E-TTL II, that is reputed to work with existing flashes. The AF system, though still using the same 45-point area AF as its predecessor is now being powered by two 32-bit RISC processors, one dedicated for the Focus function while the other controls the Lens Drive. Previously it was one CPU to control both functions. The image processing engine has also twice the power of the 1D and 5X that of consumer cameras e.g. G5. The sensor is not a cropped version of the 1Ds but a redesigned sensor with 8 channels read-out to achieve the unbelievable 8.2MP 8.5FPS. The shutter lag of 55ms can drop to 40ms when used with lens set at max aperture via custom function setting.

These are claimed specs. We'll just have to wait for detailed reviews to determine the success of this new incarnation. Why do PJs need 8MP ? Perhaps they don't, but that portrait or wedding photographer might. An 8MP 8FPS camera covers a wider range of applications than just fast action sports or PJ work, that otherwise would have to be serviced by 2 separate models, a fast camera AND a hi-res camera.

If you asked why I post this in a Nikon forum, that's because the 1D Mark II was mentioned in this thread as nothing more than a higher pixel count 1D, that I thought I should include some important things that were left out.

 

[Watcher]

I disagree with your first point already. Please justify or produce some form of deduction on why you feel that Nikon is producing a money-loosing product. Firstly, the 1005-pixel color metering already existed for almost a decade and is used on a few of its P&S models. Secondly, The sensor is more or less the next revision of the current one used on D100, produced by Sony. The rest are the same, etc. Please tell me if Canon can produce at the price, why can't Nikon? The features are the result of the "cherry-picking" of the most important features that Nikon feels that a amateur would want.

All you mentioned in the subsequent paragraph are the technical enhancement. It seems none of the handling has dramatically improved. Fewer RAW buffer than D2H (yeah I know it is unfair ), shorter battery life, grey 18% metering vs 3D color metering. Don't forget that it is still the only other camera with the "neither here nor there" FLM of 1.3.

At the end of the day, it is the final result that counts, not what and how many chips do what. We shall wait for the review.

As for 2 models vs 1, Nikon has the luxury of 2 differently focused camers: D2H and D2X. That allows the buyer to select a more appropriate camera.

 

[ckiang]

No I didn't forget, and yes, they can leave it on but:
1) with the battery of the 1D2 may have shorter performance than D2H, does the photog/PJ dare to leave it on all the time?

Actually, this is a non-issue. I leave my D100, F100, powered up until the end of the day whenever I am shooting. The drain should be insignificant. Remember, these are no battery guzzling consumer digicams with a live preview LCD. Heck, the days I used my Coolpix 950, I leave the thing on as well, and just turn off the LCD in between.

If anyone thinks 0.5s startup is too long, try the DCS14n.

Regards
CK

 

[ckiang]

I disagree with your first point already. Please justify or produce some form of deduction on why you feel that Nikon is producing a money-loosing product. Firstly, the 1005-pixel color metering already existed for almost a decade and is used on a few of its P&S models. Secondly, The sensor is more or less the next revision of the current one used on D100, produced by Sony. The rest are the same, etc. Please tell me if Canon can produce at the price, why can't Nikon? The features are the result of the "cherry-picking" of the most important features that Nikon feels that a amateur would want.

All you mentioned in the subsequent paragraph are the technical enhancement. It seems none of the handling has dramatically improved. Fewer RAW buffer than D2H (yeah I know it is unfair ), shorter battery life, grey 18% metering vs 3D color metering. Don't forget that it is still the only other camera with the "neither here nor there" FLM of 1.3.

At the end of the day, it is the final result that counts, not what and how many chips do what. We shall wait for the review.

As for 2 models vs 1, Nikon has the luxury of 2 differently focused camers: D2H and D2X. That allows the buyer to select a more appropriate camera.

Oh yes, and for those who want cameras with 0.000000000s startup time, you can consider the likes of the Leica M3, M4, M6, M7, MP. They have like 12ms shutter lag, way way faster than any of the DSLRs.

Or want a Nikon with 0 startup time? Try the FM3a, FM2, FE2, FM, FE, etc.

Regards
CK

 

[gremlin]

I read with interest the posts made in this thread. Watcher, from your posts I realised you seem to know very well the technical specs of the 1DMk2 and D2H Which is good, as this shows you have balanced info from each side. However, in post #88 you swept aside the 1DMk2 with a single statement, and I quote "What high end for 1D2? Besides the high pixel count, it has nothing in terms of handling when compared to D2H."

Ok, maybe you are right but the fact is, no one has done an objective review on the 1D2Mk2 (1D2 from now on :sweat: ) so I think its fair to say, its handling capabilities are still unknown as of now. Of course, you can choose to point out things such that the 1D2 still needs 0.5s startup time, shutter blackout time of 87ms, etc compared to D2H, but that would contradict what you very aptly said in your last post "
At the end of the day, it is the final result that counts, not what and how many chips do what. We shall wait for the review."

Btw, you are right to say 8mp pics take longer time to do almost everything... but 1D2 users always have a choice to save as a smaller jpg file right? I suppose having a choice is a good thing?

Ok guys, I admit I am a canon user so if my views are biased, please accept my apologies

 

[xdivider]

I read with interest the posts made in this thread. Watcher, from your posts I realised you seem to know very well the technical specs of the 1DMk2 and D2H Which is good, as this shows you have balanced info from each side. However, in post #88 you swept aside the 1DMk2 with a single statement, and I quote "What high end for 1D2? Besides the high pixel count, it has nothing in terms of handling when compared to D2H."

Ok, maybe you are right but the fact is, no one was done an objective review on the 1D2Mk2 (1D2 from now on :sweat: ) so I think its fair to say, its handling capabilities are still unknown as of now. Of course, you can choose to point out things such that the 1D2 still needs 0.5s startup time, shutter blackout time of 87ms, etc compared to D2H, but that would contradict what you very aptly said in your last post "
At the end of the day, it is the final result that counts, not what and how many chips do what. We shall wait for the review."

Btw, you are right to say 8mp pics take longer time to do almost everything... but 1D2 users always have a choice to save as a smaller jpg file right? I suppose having a choice is a good thing?

Ok guys, I admit I am a canon user so if my views are biased, please accept my apologies

Think i opened a can of worms when i made the the comment. My bad. I wasnt looking at 1D2 as a PJ cam, more like enhanced 10D. Shouldnt had made the cardinal sin of mentioning Canon in Nikon forum :sweat:.

 

[rncw]

Ok guys, I admit I am a canon user so if my views are biased, please accept my apologies

looks like your "mojo" is really back...lets go shooting this Sunday? :bsmilie:

 

[Red Dawn]

What high end for

1D2? Besides the high pixel

count, it has nothing in terms of handling when compared to D2H.

Nonsense. Have you actually handled a 1D mk II before? Or a 1v? or even the D2h? Nothing in terms of handling when compared to the D2h, even before you actually handled one?

this is blatantly spreading misinformation. You have pointed out dpreview.com and Robgalbraith.com as sites for more info and in fact, you have even quoted facts and figures from those 2 sites. But i sometimes wonder if u actually

READ wat they say, especially Rob Galbraith's writings.

let me help you.

From Rob Galbraith's website:

"While the 1D MKII's new 8.2 million actual image pixel sensor and 8.5 fps shooting rate at full resolution are likely to capture the most attention, Canon has been busy beavering away on other areas of the camera too.

There are promised improvements to Canon's already-stellar 45-point Area AF system and not-so-stellar E-TTL flash. Plus, the 1D MKII offers an impressive array of controls over image colour, includes niceties such as the ability to save and load a comprehensive camera settings file, it accepts both CompactFlash and Secure Digital cards (there's one card slot for each type) and can be configured to display individual RGB channel histograms. Zoomed playback and video out, two features that never made it into the original 1D, are present and accounted for in the 1D MKII."

And from other parts of his preview,

"All things being equal, a camera with a smaller pixel size will produce noisier photos than one with a larger pixel size. But, all things are not equal in this case. When Canon designed the 1D, they were only beginning to understand how to best massage sensor data to keep noise at bay, and were working with a sensor they designed but did not produce.

The 1D MKII not only sports a sensor that features higher-efficiency microlenses for improved light-gathering ability, but its engineers were able to draw on several years of experience knocking back image noise in designing the image processing circuitry in the new model.

We're optimistic - confident even - that the photos coming from the 1D MKII are going to be smoother and considerably less noisy than the 1D, despite the 1D's pixel pitch advantage."

There are many others. Maybe you should actually READ your own links. Clearly you only read wat you want to see, while conveniently dropping the other salient points.

500ms (0.5 sec) start up time !?! :bigeyes: shutter lag of 55ms, blackout time 87ms vs D2H will make it seem old and unprofessional (the shutter lag for D100 is around 80ms, blackout about 100ms+ IIRC).

Same buffer size as D2H but no WA :sweat:

Weigh >1.2kg w/o battery vs 1.07kg. With battery, >1.5kg...

i suppose the relatively "recent" release of the Canon 1v makes the Nikon F5 "seem old and unprofessional" (your quote). Right, how logical.

 

[Red Dawn]

Precisely. Does a PJ/sports photog need 8MP? :dunno:

That may be true. But ask jed, who is actually a real life photojournalist / sports photographer. Ask him wat he thinks of the EOS 1D Mk2 and whether he minds having a 8 megapixel sensor.

Again, from the link-you-gave-but-never-read-yourslf:

"The new model's combination of high speed and high resolution means that any number of different models could also have been included for competitive comparison. Whether it's the Nikon D2H for the news and sports photographer who sometimes needs more than 4MP of resolution, the Nikon D1X for the photographer who has been limited by that camera's 3 fps shooting rate or the EOS-1Ds for the photographer who has needed lots of pixels but has been unwilling to pay the price premium Canon's 11MP camera commands, the 1D MKII is uniquely positioned to tackle them all.

Looked at another way, the 1D MKII doesn't fit neatly into any one digital SLR category; rather, it traverses a number of different ones, and ultimately would seem to be without a direct competitor. If the camera performs as well as its specs suggest, that should have Canon laughing all the way to the bank."

 

[Red Dawn]

It's a Canon thing lah...they just like to push for stuffs to push their own to ugprade, you've seen it so often, so why still so surprised?

oh yes, and Nikon doesn't do that huh?

 

[espn]

oh yes, and Nikon doesn't do that huh?

Maybe I should add to that comment of mine.

"It's a Canon thing lah...they just like to push for stuffs to push their own to ugprade within short time frames, you've seen it so often, so why still so surprised?"

 

[Red Dawn]

No I didn't forget, and yes, they can leave it on but:

1) with the battery of the 1D2 may have shorter performance than D2H, does the photog/PJ dare to leave it on all the time?

2) If the camera is off and you need to wait for it to be fully powered on, how?

Somehow, this sound kinda like Palm vs PocketPC wars that I had participated years ago . Eventually, Palm also adopted color screens and have battery span measured in hours rather than days. I can bet that eventually, Canon will put this feature on their cameras. What will people say when their favourite brand adopt a feature that they pooh-poohed earlier, some time later?

you find 0.5 sec startup time objectionable? I don't know, but i always thought cameras are meant to be turned on at all times when shooting. My 10D, 1v are always on the minute i take them out of the bag for a shoot. So are my leica m6, m3...oh wait, there's no "on" switch for those! :bsmilie:

you pooh-poohed the 8 megapixels for a camera of this class.

Make sure we dun see you cheering the next generation of Nikon cameras with 8 megapixels or more in a photojournalist class camera like the D2h. afterall, does a PJ really need 8 megapixels??? (your words, not mine!)

 

[mpenza]

I disagree with your first point already. Please justify or produce some form of deduction on why you feel that Nikon is producing a money-loosing product.

You misread. There was no mentioning of Nikon producing a money-losing product. Why makes you assume so?

 

[Red Dawn]

Maybe I should add to that comment of mine.

"It's a Canon thing lah...they just like to push for stuffs to push their own to ugprade within short time frames, you've seen it so often, so why still so surprised?"

Maybe. apparently so for the consumer / prosumer class machines.

But for the pro line, the 1D was a revolution when it was released and is an amazing 3 yr old machine. in digital terms, that's dinosaur ages ago. Meanwhile Nikon has no answer to that for a long time until the D2h, which arrived with a fantastic handling body, but doesn't radically exceed the capabilities of the 1D.

this second generation 1D mkII, i'm sure you will agree if you look at it objectively, is radical in terms of features and design. The first camera to possibly bridge the gap between a studio type DSLR and a PJ type DSLR.

in future, there may not be a need for 2 separate product lines.

 

[concuss]

Wow... this thread has out-lived its usefulness.

I own a "lowly" D100. I will still continue to own a "lowly" D100 :think: <ESPN, don't start......>. But frankly, I love my D100 alot.. :lovegrin: . It goes beyond MP or performance count. It is a symbiotic relationship.

D2H may have shortcomings to 1D2 and vice versa, but there will always be 2 camps of thought.

So what if anyone can prove beyond a doubt that D2H or 1D2 totally owns the other camera? If you got the money, buy lor!!! <BUY BUY BUY :thumbsup: >

Canon or Nikon will not give either camp any discount on the camera anyway.

What's most important at the end of the day is still the eye behind the camera.

No use having D2H or 1D2 if you have a monkey at the receiving end....

Mods, can close the thread?

 

[Edmund]

Thread is reopened for discussion. No personal attacks please or I wil reclose the thread.

 

[Watcher]

If anyone thinks 0.5s startup is too long, try the DCS14n.

CK

I've not seen nor think that the DCS14n designed for a PJ's work. To me, it is more of a studio camera or when there is a controlled environment. Totally different aim of the camera.

 

[Watcher]

I read with interest the posts made in this thread. Watcher, from your posts I realised you seem to know very well the technical specs of the 1DMk2 and D2H Which is good, as this shows you have balanced info from each side. However, in post #88 you swept aside the 1DMk2 with a single statement, and I quote "What high end for 1D2? Besides the high pixel count, it has nothing in terms of handling when compared to D2H."

Ok, maybe you are right but the fact is, no one has done an objective review on the 1D2Mk2 (1D2 from now on :sweat: ) so I think its fair to say, its handling capabilities are still unknown as of now. Of course, you can choose to point out things such that the 1D2 still needs 0.5s startup time, shutter blackout time of 87ms, etc compared to D2H, but that would contradict what you very aptly said in your last post "
At the end of the day, it is the final result that counts, not what and how many chips do what. We shall wait for the review."

Btw, you are right to say 8mp pics take longer time to do almost everything... but 1D2 users always have a choice to save as a smaller jpg file right? I suppose having a choice is a good thing?

Ok guys, I admit I am a canon user so if my views are biased, please accept my apologies

Sigh, most of the above which is the result of the merging of thread, etc is taken out of context.

First, for an alleged D2H-killer (of course Canon has to guess what Nikon will come out with. The camera was open beta'ed more than 6 months before the 1D2 came out), the features (on paper) in terms of handling, does not exceed what the D2H has, esp the shutter lag (no restriction on the aperture), etc.

Yes, we should wait for some proper review on all aspects of the camera before a final conclusion can be made. That said, the "on paper" specs loses out to the D2H.

 

[Watcher]

Have YOU handled a 1D2 and D2H? How do YOU know that I have not handled a D2H? Nice way about going on a conversation, right?

Please read your own quotes carefully. Both Rob and Phil has read alleged or even tried out (no idea if they have) but look at how they phrase it:

"There are promised improvements" - Have they seen or measured it?
and
"We're optimistic - confident even - that the photos coming from the 1D MKII are going to be smoother and considerably less noisy than the 1D, despite the 1D's pixel pitch advantage" - They have not seen any actual images, so how are you so sure that it will deliver and not just some hope on your part?

Currently, only specs. Non of those sites have reported handling and analysing the final product yet. Right now on paper, the only thing that is outright superior to D2H is the pixel count.

Nonsense. Have you actually handled a 1D mk II before? Or a 1v? or even the D2h? Nothing in terms of handling when compared to the D2h, even before you actually handled one?

this is blatantly spreading misinformation. You have pointed out dpreview.com and Robgalbraith.com as sites for more info and in fact, you have even quoted facts and figures from those 2 sites. But i sometimes wonder if u actually

READ wat they say, especially Rob Galbraith's writings.

let me help you.

From Rob Galbraith's website:

"While the 1D MKII's new 8.2 million actual image pixel sensor and 8.5 fps shooting rate at full resolution are likely to capture the most attention, Canon has been busy beavering away on other areas of the camera too.

There are promised improvements to Canon's already-stellar 45-point Area AF system and not-so-stellar E-TTL flash. Plus, the 1D MKII offers an impressive array of controls over image colour, includes niceties such as the ability to save and load a comprehensive camera settings file, it accepts both CompactFlash and Secure Digital cards (there's one card slot for each type) and can be configured to display individual RGB channel histograms. Zoomed playback and video out, two features that never made it into the original 1D, are present and accounted for in the 1D MKII."

And from other parts of his preview,

"All things being equal, a camera with a smaller pixel size will produce noisier photos than one with a larger pixel size. But, all things are not equal in this case. When Canon designed the 1D, they were only beginning to understand how to best massage sensor data to keep noise at bay, and were working with a sensor they designed but did not produce.

The 1D MKII not only sports a sensor that features higher-efficiency microlenses for improved light-gathering ability, but its engineers were able to draw on several years of experience knocking back image noise in designing the image processing circuitry in the new model.

We're optimistic - confident even - that the photos coming from the 1D MKII are going to be smoother and considerably less noisy than the 1D, despite the 1D's pixel pitch advantage."

There are many others. Maybe you should actually READ your own links. Clearly you only read wat you want to see, while conveniently dropping the other salient points.




i suppose the relatively "recent" release of the Canon 1v makes the Nikon F5 "seem old and unprofessional" (your quote). Right, how logical.

 

[Watcher]

you find 0.5 sec startup time objectionable? I don't know, but i always thought cameras are meant to be turned on at all times when shooting. My 10D, 1v are always on the minute i take them out of the bag for a shoot. So are my leica m6, m3...oh wait, there's no "on" switch for those! :bsmilie:

you pooh-poohed the 8 megapixels for a camera of this class.

Make sure we dun see you cheering the next generation of Nikon cameras with 8 megapixels or more in a photojournalist class camera like the D2h. afterall, does a PJ really need 8 megapixels??? (your words, not mine!)

For a PJ? Maybe, but if combined with a lower powering battery, this may cause an issue when used on the field. Especially when your direct competitor (D2H) has longer battery life, lighter weight, immediate start up. The 8-MP thing was an indication that the focus of Canon seems to be on increasing the MP count but not the handling (NiMH battery for eg). Yes, eventually a PJ cam will come but does PJ clammor (now) for more MP or better handling? Design for the more egregarious issues rather than pushing the bleeding edge.