Birds and pishing, re Mangrove Pitta

[rhino123]

Hey brother. Be cool. I have observed all your replies in this thread including the earlier ones with other folks. First of all, I want to say - Don't have to be too work up on the matters. I am just merely sharing my views. I am actually quite amazed by your interpretations of me on lecturing others. To be honest, I would rather lecture my children than wasting time here.

I am in disagreement with your statement "Plus... by breaking a few branches... would actually cause so much stress to the birds? Don't underestimate nature. If it was that weak, it would had long ago been destroy." This is not about just the bird. Factually there are lesser trees in the world right now! We human beings including myself has been a part in this. Also your statement MAY misled others and to a certain extend encouraging more people to start breaking a few branches here and there since mother nature is so strong, breaking a few branches (no worries it will grow back). I don't think this is the kind of behavior that I would like to encourage.

Next you quoted --> ".. your main aim is to lecture people, not to monkey see monkey do" --> Hello I am not here to lecture anyone nor do I have the right to do that!

I am not here to make enemies brother, so please maintain your cool and be neutral in your interpretations. Don't start stuffing words into people's mouth like a rhino bashing into the bushes. You are free to voice your opinions and I respect your views.

Lastly, you quoted --> "So if YOU do not yet understand what everyone of us is trying to bring out, then so be it". Hey hey hey don't have to aggregate the matter in your writing using "YOU" in capital letter. I am not sure if this could be treated as personal attack - Moderators, your call. It is also not professional to use the same words that I had already used back on the same person - This is "lecture". Again I am not here to make enemies, but please watch your words in writing and maintain a neutral perspective. Let's be more careful in writing and I do respect your views!

Thank you and have a nice day sir.

I do apologise if I sounded crude or offensive. But have a read at your own wordings first...

If by now you still don't understand what I am trying to say so be it.

Does this actually sound courteous and not inviting a debate? We might have different understanding to your view and my view, so we would just have to agree to disagree. And when I say the same thing, it became a personal attack... just because I capitalise the word "YOU"? Plus using your own words again,

"Don't start stuffing words into people's mouth like a rhino bashing into the bushes. You are free to voice your opinions and I respect your views."was this consider as a personal attack? And when did I ever stuff words into your mouth. Read your own text again and it sure sound like lecturing... especially with the capitalizing of some of your words.

But you are right, you are not here to make enemy, I am not here to do that too. The bird watching, birding and wildlife photography community in Singapore is pretty small, we are bound to knock into each other one of these days... so it would be better than I take a cool pill (I hope you too) and be cool alright?

But there is a few points that I would bring up with regards to my statement as quoted by you too,

"Plus... by breaking a few branches... would actually cause so much stress to the birds? Don't underestimate nature. If it was that weak, it would had long ago been destroy." I am not in anyway trying to misled anyone into thinking that breaking of branches is correct. What I mean is mother nature is not as weak as many had make her up to be. But what is more important is the following sentence

"yes if there are a couple of millions of people breaking a few branches each for a couple of days, the damage will be tremendous" I do agreed that it is not good to go bashing into the forest and start clearing a path for people to move around. But as I have mentioned again,

"how many wildlife photographers are there in our community? How many actually go all out and into the mangrove? Did anyone actually see huge number of broken branches and trees that are a result of random breaking by careless wildlife photographers?"

So that statement is merely aimed at a few photographers or people who go into the forest and irresponsibly broke branches off... the number are small... and it should not affect that much of the forest or nature or whatever anyone likes to put.

Yes... again... I apologise for being very harsh and straight forward in my replies. But I would also like to point out that you are not exactly that polite in your replies to me too. What I suggest is that, you and I both shares different views, so we will have to agree to disagree, and both of us should take the cool pills and look as this as adults.

Cool?

 

[Luenny]

Wah, so many replies, I also don't know where to start reading. But as I was told about this, I got curious and read the blog. But as I read the blog, a question comes to my mind. If you are so concern about some birder playing calls and breaking a few branches and going down the broadwalk, what about those people trimming trees, chopping down the whole tree even sometimes and destroying the whole place to do constructions so that people can live there? The harm they make is surely much much more than this case. So why are you not posting photos of them and blogging about them? Why not take them on? Or is it simply that you cannot go against the big guys, you pick on small fries? If that's the case, I don't even want to read/hear what you have to say anymore.

 

[DeSwitch]

I dont know how many recalled the response by Nature Society of Singapore on the white bellied sea eagle nest that was about to be demolished because its in the way for a new condo project?

Eagles nest on executive condo site



Lower pierce reservoir was once a place visited annually by the black back kingfisher however during last year migration season, the whole boardwalk was closed for renovation. The noise from the chainsaw and other machinery used to replace the boardwalk had scared the BBKF away and was not seen during last year and this year migration season. I only managed to catch a glimpse of it on 1st Jan 2011 just outside the forest area. That's the last I saw a BBKF there. So who did a bigger damage? Recently more and more noisy equipments are used by Npark or its sub-contractors to maintain the parks. One of them is the blower to clear the cut grass. What happen to the old fashion and effective racks? The blower uses petrol which not only produce noise but use up natural resources Unnecessarily. Its also produce harmful smoke that pollutes the clean environment that we go to the park for in the 1st place.


And talking about care for the environment and nature, why is F1 races allowed here in the 1st place. This sport is only for entertainment purpose (and monetary gains) and serve no useful purpose except burning more fuel and waste our Nature resources.


Are we going to attack the small fries like what Luenny said and let the big brothers do anything they want?

 

[Miketay]

I agree with Luenny and DeSwitch. Why are you so concerned with the micro view of breaking branches and going into mangroves that are not irreparable and not tackle bigger issues like logging (e.g. Panti forest), and governmental developments (e.g. Bt. Brown cemetery and Bidadari) that obliterate big parts of our precious nature. The reasons are obvious.

I am also surprised that the moderator allowed a link to a blog that contain personal attacks on fellow photographers to be posted and even make it into a sticky. I believe that if the same link contains something against the authorities it will be taken out instantly.

 

[MacroMarlin]

Thanks for sharing this article, raising general public's awareness.

Btw, also thanks for sharing the location of the rare, elusive, critically endangered mangrove pitta. I'm sure it will attract more nature lovers to head there to appreciate it's beauty. Will be lifer for many of us.

Well said! Expect a peak hours crowd soon!

 

[johnson163]

Ha Ha, I can sale drink to make some $$

 

[zaren]

thread moved to kopitiam.

 

[jcho]

thread moved to kopitiam.

Mod what happen? Don't you like to make it sticky? Your glue weak I guess? Why make it sticky in the first place? May as well delete it right and sweep it under the carpet?

 

[strobby]

Kopitiam??? We are talking able a big topic here leh...if it is not to much of a problem maybe the moderator like to explain why so that we can know your concern:think::think:

 

[zaren]

Mod what happen? Don't you like to make it sticky? Your glue weak I guess? Why make it sticky in the first place? May as well delete it right and sweep it under the carpet?

Kopitiam??? We are talking able a big topic here leh...if it is not to much of a problem maybe the moderator like to explain why so that we can know your concern:think::think:

take a chill pill guys...

nobody suggested for the thread to be made a sticky in the first place. when i first saw the thread, i thought that it would be helpful to make it a sticky to raise awareness of proper birding etiquette. as the thread progressed, views were put forward by various CSers that it was not a good idea to make public a) the photos of the two photogs b) the location of the bird. Some also started to question why the thread was made a sticky in the 1st place. i therefore decided that since a) the thread did not contain images of birds which are appropriate for a post in the "world of nature" gallery, and b) it does not fit into any other category under the "general discussions" forum, i unstickied the thread and moved it to kopitiam, where we are free to continue discussing this topic until the cows come home. please note that i have no intention of deleting the thread or sweeping anything under the carpet. of course it would also be great if TS, birders and the avian photogs here who have weighed in on the discussion cleared the air in real life over a real cup of kopi (as suggested by Harlequin in an earlier post) and focus our energies on the bigger issues in life, and confront together the greater threats that our birds and wildlife face.

cheers,
z.

 

[kei1309]

can see how the old birds are acting cocky in here.

cool read. really gave me a great bed-time story.

i think i can sum it all up in a few sentences:

1) the old-timers think they don't need to listen to the younger generation. if you think that way, you've lost your wisdom

2) the young ones should respect the older generation. just because you might have learnt more in a generation with access to more knowledge, doesn't mean you can speak haughtily to the seniors

3) you guys have lost your heads. so much OT and rubbish inside.

while i applaud TS for bringing this matter to light, and of course he might have made the mistake of revealing the location, there is no need to bash him like there's no tomorrow.

while you guys are taking care of nature, you guys are destroying one another with your anger.

and you forget, where your HDB/Condo/Shopping Malls etc are, were once flourishing jungles and marshes and the like.

so before you slam someone for spoiling nature, or slam someone for being over-enthusiastic, look at yourself first and ask if you're qualified to do so.

"Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone"

 

[Miketay]

Brother kei1309 I think you got it all wrong here. The matter has nothing to do with young or old birds so stop pointing your finger. Those who spoke out against the TS were bird photographers of all ages and experiences. What they are trying to do is to point out to the TS what the real world is like and to be more understanding, tolerant and to acquire more knowledge of the situation before acting the way he did.

Also do not be simplistic to think that knowledge in this generation is accessible to only the younger generation. The acquiring and possession of knowledge has nothing to do age but whether you like it or not the older one has the edge as they have gone through much more. The younger generation will in no time become the older generation so do not despair.

Those contributions against the TS are necessary because of what the TS has done and said. I think everyone can learn something from here and this is definitely not a rubbish thread made in anger.

I am glad you know that nobody is an angel and that is precisely why we spoke out against the TS and his supporters.

 

[kei1309]

Brother kei1309 I think you got it all wrong here. The matter has nothing to do with young or old birds so stop pointing your finger. Those who spoke out against the TS were bird photographers of all ages and experiences. What they are trying to do is to point out to the TS what the real world is like and to be more understanding, tolerant and to acquire more knowledge of the situation before acting the way he did.

Also do not be simplistic to think that knowledge in this generation is accessible to only the younger generation. The acquiring and possession of knowledge has nothing to do age but whether you like it or not the older one has the edge as they have gone through much more. The younger generation will in no time become the older generation so do not despair.

Those contributions against the TS are necessary because of what the TS has done and said. I think everyone can learn something from here and this is definitely not a rubbish thread made in anger.

I am glad you know that nobody is an angel and that is precisely why we spoke out against the TS and his supporters.

based on the assumption that everyone has equal access to that knowledge and knows how to access it. honestly i can tell you from my own experiences (daily) that usually the older generation is more stubborn to listen to the younger generation when it comes to learning. and by older, it's the pride that comes with age that "older is wiser"

i did not in any way claim that it's a "young birds" vs "old birds" issue. but it from the way everyone is replying on all threads in all websites, it does seem that way.

neither did i say it's a thread made in anger. what i said was:

while you guys are taking care of nature, you guys are destroying one another with your anger.

i read the entire thread, and realized that there's a lot of anger in everyone's posting.

true, he revealed the location. but is it a good reason to blast him and such? if those birders destroyed the environment knowingly and had no care about it, don't their actions deserve to be brought to light as well? (though in the end, it brought more people there to destroy the habitat)

TS' intention wasn't to start a war against the old-timers or experienced birders, but to inform them that such behavior is happening. and in the course of it all, accidentally and unintentionally revealed the location of the nest.

the other guy, who approached the old-time birders really needs to re-look his attitude. but that being said, those old-timers need to take a chill pill and look at how they're behaving as well. you might be an old guy with lots of experience in wildlife photography, but you should know better than to encroach into the habitat of the animals.

i saw a lot of posts also saying that without this encroaching upon the habitat, those photographs could not have been taken.

but do take note. there is a difference between damaging the environment and becoming one with the environment. i suppose those who made that assertion are those who don't care more about the environment that their prized shots.

jumping straight into the mangrove and walking around can damage the roots, and harm lifeforms that have their homes in the mud and water. rather than to find a better location to shoot the pitta from, they decided to damage the environment just to get their shots. it's a shame that everyone is siding those "nature-lovers" when obviously they're at fault too.

 

[zaren]

as for revealing the location of the mangrove pitta, i am surprised that the ppl who objected so vehemently in this thread about this did not raise any objections when the same location (in much greater detail) of the same bird was publicly revealed in earlier threads; http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/worl...-nikon-d3s-nikon-800mm-f5-6s.html#post7677137 and http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/worl...itta-fever-prp-after-my-trip-usa-germany.html

by all means bash, but bash consistently and fairly lah.

 

[9V-Orion Images]

Birds of a feather flock together.

 

[Miketay]

Don't blatantly deny what you have implied for most parts of your post. Any reasonable person can read what you are saying.

Enough have been said in this thread on the subject and there is no need to fan the flame any further since you have nothing new to contribute.

Since the moderator has relegated this thread to Kopitiam status I see no point in posting here any further. I sincerely hope that the moderator could close the thread and appropriately reclassify it after removing the offensive link and the place of the bird. This thread could serve as a valuable reference for birders, bird photographers and other interested parties so that hopefully no such incidence will occur in the future.

 

[gundamseed84]

as for revealing the location of the mangrove pitta, i am surprised that the ppl who objected so vehemently in this thread about this did not raise any objections when the same location (in much greater detail) of the same bird was publicly revealed in earlier threads; http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/worl...-nikon-d3s-nikon-800mm-f5-6s.html#post7677137 and http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/worl...itta-fever-prp-after-my-trip-usa-germany.html

by all means bash, but bash consistently and fairly lah.

Haha...ok I guess Oldtimer did not do it on purpose so did TS...sometimes it just blurt out of our minds and fingers.
Actually if this thread is not about shooting and flaming then maybe it might not catch too much attention, with the Pitta's location still relatively unknown...however after all the heated debate...I guess even non birders now know the location.

Actually don't have to keep pointing fingers at each other, as much as we want everyone to behave well in Nparks etc, not everyone will do it nor remember it especially upon the excitement of seeing something unexpected. Very few will listen to us unless we are some kind of authority. However at the very least even if we cannot advice other people what actions are not so friendly, we should just make sure we keep ourselves under good control.

Not sure but online local sites you can find location of various birds at different locations too. Those poachers will have their ways to find their prey even if we keep quiet here. That said, we just do our part by not disclosing too much of such information but if we accidentally do, it's not like we are to be blamed or held responsible should the poachers prey on those birds. Sometimes I think people who are really interested in birds and may want visit to see them "live" do not know that actually there are many interesting ones in Singapore because everyone is not willing to share. Difficult issue here, benefit the innocents and others may abuse it, deter the "baddies", innoncent ones gets short changed.

Alternatively, birders who know each other well and can ascertain they aren't bad birders or poachers can form some kind of group here whereby they can have healthy discussions about birds, like their behaviour, food chain etc. Like Flowerpod got that "XXX" section whereby people can only join under certain conditions (I am not there btw LOL).

Just some suggestions.

 

[cws77]

take a chill pill everyone la, if possible... when people become emotional, people cannot think clearly..
it happens to all, you , me , him , her...... and really not a good idea to point fingers at each other,whether it
be those who are pro or against the TS... when issues becomes personalised...people become defensive naturally...
and it becomes a little like "you " against "us" instead of "right" against "wrong"
Just my two cents calm down.... we all make mistakes.....

 

[zaren]

Haha...ok I guess Oldtimer did not do it on purpose so did TS...sometimes it just blurt out of our minds and fingers.
Actually if this thread is not about shooting and flaming then maybe it might not catch too much attention, with the Pitta's location still relatively unknown...however after all the heated debate...I guess even non birders now know the location.

Actually don't have to keep pointing fingers at each other, as much as we want everyone to behave well in Nparks etc, not everyone will do it nor remember it especially upon the excitement of seeing something unexpected. Very few will listen to us unless we are some kind of authority. However at the very least even if we cannot advice other people what actions are not so friendly, we should just make sure we keep ourselves under good control.

Not sure but online local sites you can find location of various birds at different locations too. Those poachers will have their ways to find their prey even if we keep quiet here. That said, we just do our part by not disclosing too much of such information but if we accidentally do, it's not like we are to be blamed or held responsible should the poachers prey on those birds. Sometimes I think people who are really interested in birds and may want visit to see them "live" do not know that actually there are many interesting ones in Singapore because everyone is not willing to share. Difficult issue here, benefit the innocents and others may abuse it, deter the "baddies", innoncent ones gets short changed.

Alternatively, birders who know each other well and can ascertain they aren't bad birders or poachers can form some kind of group here whereby they can have healthy discussions about birds, like their behaviour, food chain etc. Like Flowerpod got that "XXX" section whereby people can only join under certain conditions (I am not there btw LOL).

Just some suggestions.

good point about the poachers.
actually, photographers and members of the public should do what they can to alert the authorities about poaching activities, as outlined in this useful website;
acres - Animal Concerns Research & Education Society